ATTENTION: The Boards will be closed permanently on May 28th, 2014. Posting will be disabled on April 28th, 2014. More Info

Does anyone else fell uncomfortable...

sonofspock1

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 6488

Report this Oct. 01 2009, 7:36 pm

Watching Damage?

I watched it today, I understand Archer's reasons for doing what he did (No spoilers, there are new Enterprise viewers about the place), but I felt kinda sick watching, as we'll call it, "The Final Act".

I know he had no other choice, or we'd be screwed, but I hated Archer for doing it.

The rest of the episode is fine though!  :D

Quote
ARCHER: How long have you been a doctor?
PHLOX: Nearly forty years.
(Long pause)
ARCHER: And in that time, have you ever done anything you thought was unethical?
(Long pause)
PHLOX: Twice. Why?
ARCHER: I'm about to step over a line. A line I thought I would never cross. And given the nature of our mission, it probably won't be the last.
PHLOX: Probably not.

honeybee1111

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 880

Report this Oct. 01 2009, 7:42 pm

I think that's the point. And he did suffer internally for his actions, especially when everyone kept calling him a hero.

Really, compared to characters on "dark" shows like the BSG reboot, Archer didn't really become irredeemable. He never did blow anyone out the airlock out of spite or snatch a baby or make torture policy. But he did break his own moral code for the greater good, something that he paid the price for.

lostshaker

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2293

Report this Oct. 01 2009, 7:43 pm

I felt uncomfortable too. All I could hear was Kirk and Picard demanding their crew for a third alternative. I didn't hate Archer, because he was faced with a no win situation and basically got screwed. But a little respect was lost, even though he did leave supplies.

That being said, the episode hit a home run (bases loaded) showing the reality of their situation.

Though some people on this forum will disagree, I wanted Archer to try and return to help the alien crew - even if he came back to discover the aliens had been destroyed. THAT would be even harder for Archer, I'm sure.

"Damage" is a great episode despite my moral reservations about it. Archer didn't really have any other choice as Earth and ultimately the galaxy was at stake.

sonofspock1

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 6488

Report this Oct. 01 2009, 7:48 pm

I'd like to think a Xindi Aquatic ship picked up Casey Bigg's ship, and took them home, like they did for our crew.

lostshaker

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2293

Report this Oct. 01 2009, 7:54 pm

Quote (honeybee1111 @ Oct. 01 2009, 7:42 pm)
Really, compared to characters on "dark" shows like the BSG reboot, Archer didn't really become irredeemable.

Yes! The fact that Archer beat himself up showed him to be morally centered. I felt his actions would be hardest for those like him to deal with, because his generation seemed to be the first to benefit from the 50 year recovery period of WWIII. They were the ones embracing compassion and respect for all life.

whyaduck

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 3478

Report this Oct. 01 2009, 8:09 pm

Quote (lostshaker @ Oct. 01 2009, 7:54 pm)
Quote (honeybee1111 @ Oct. 01 2009, 7:42 pm)
Really, compared to characters on "dark" shows like the BSG reboot, Archer didn't really become irredeemable.

Yes! The fact that Archer beat himself up showed him to be morally centered. I felt his actions would be hardest for those like him to deal with, because his generation seemed to be the first to benefit from the 50 year recovery period of WWIII. They were the ones embracing compassion and respect for all life.

Archer beat himself up for the rest of his life for the actions he took. He never thought he'd have to make those decisions that sent his moral compass spinning.

ARCHER: You want to know why I'm out here? I figured this is the last place I'd run into anyone who'd want to shake my hand or take my picture or tell me I'm an inspiration to their children. If they knew what I'd done.
ERIKA: You did what any captain would have done.
ARCHER: Does that include torture? Or marooning a ship full of innocent people? Because I don't remember reading those chapters in the handbook.
ERIKA: Where are you going, Jon? Are you going to go climbing in the middle of the night?
ARCHER: Why not?
ERIKA: It'd be a shame if you lost your footing. It's a long way down. But at least you wouldn't have to deal with these feelings anymore.
ARCHER: Are you telling me I have some kind of a death wish?
ERIKA: You tell me.
ARCHER: All I'm trying to do is get away from you. I look at you, and I see the person I was three years ago. The explorer that my father wanted me to be. I lost something out there, and I don't know how to get it back.

grigori

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 10463

Report this Oct. 01 2009, 8:16 pm

That's the key quote, duck, tx.

If you were uncomfortable, you were MEANT to be: this is heavy stuff. The writers stuck out their necks and RISKED us hating Archer and explored the real moral toughies, which has to be uncomfortable for any thinking person.

The whole second part of my previously-enjoyable thread "The Evolution of Archer" is dedicated to arguments between those who believe Archer had no choice and did in fact save Earth, and those who believe he's an unregenerate pirate. In case you wanted the WHOLE impact of this episode explored in minute detail.

lostshaker

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2293

Report this Oct. 01 2009, 8:26 pm

I don't have a problem with pirates, but calling Archer an unregenerate is out of order!

Middleman

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 3657

Report this Oct. 01 2009, 8:33 pm

Quote (sonofspock1 @ Oct. 01 2009, 7:36 pm)
I know he had no other choice, or we'd be screwed, but I hated Archer for doing it.

Hate to say it, but I actually admire him for doing it. Doing something that was so against his nature because he had to. Same reason why I admire the Jack Bauer character, you do what you have to do. But I said this all in another thread a few days ago.

Quote (lostshaker @ Oct. 01 2009, 8:26 pm)
I don't have a problem with pirates, but calling Archer an unregenerate is out of order!

Do you realize I had to take out a dictionary?
:laugh:

captbates

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 12614

Report this Oct. 01 2009, 8:37 pm

If Archer hadn't done what was needed, not only would he be a failure, but also a borderline coward. An entire quadrant of space was under threat, not just Earth. Did I feel uncomfortable? NO! the convenience of one crew is nothing compared to the stakes involved.
This episode shows just how close series 3 copies 24, with Archer filling the role of Jack Bauer.



"You've changed, Captain."
"And none at all for the better."


A great quote from Silik, but I'm sure it would just be Archers enemies who wouldn't like the change.

TrekFan1701E

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 14979

Report this Oct. 01 2009, 8:41 pm

Waits for TrekWolf to come in this thread and say Archer was a pirate in Damage. :laugh:

Middleman

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 3657

Report this Oct. 01 2009, 8:43 pm

Quote (TrekFan1701E @ Oct. 01 2009, 8:41 pm)
Waits for TrekWolf to come in this thread and say Archer was a pirate in Damage. :laugh:

:laugh: :laugh:

honeybee1111

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 880

Report this Oct. 01 2009, 8:51 pm

Archer did resort to piracy in Damage. Duh. Without the support of a Federation and allies - he was pushed into things that were against his personal moral code for the greater good. Unlike Kirk or Picard, he didn't have other starships to come and rescue him or any real allies he could count on. Later, Sisko, who did have those things, is pushed pretty far during the Dominion War.

So, he was a pirate. He was a pretty nice one, considering he made sure they didn't get hurt and wouldn't starve and whatnot. It was the fate of the entire galaxy that was at stake and he still was torn up with guilt.

I wonder how it would have affected him if he had actually been forced to kill Sim.  Sim saved him from that massive weight on his shoulders, as I am pretty sure he would have done it.

Narada

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 4010

Report this Oct. 01 2009, 8:51 pm

Very great comments in this thread and exactly what the writers are intending!

whyaduck

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 3478

Report this Oct. 01 2009, 8:56 pm

Quote (Narada @ Oct. 01 2009, 8:51 pm)
Very great comments in this thread and exactly what the writers are intending!

And that's why it sucks so bad that it was canceled.

Forum Permissions

You cannot post new topics in this forum

You cannot reply to topics in this forum

You cannot delete posts in this forum