ATTENTION: The Boards will be closed permanently on May 28th, 2014. Posting will be disabled on April 28th, 2014. More Info

Vulcans in ST 2009

Jakemantrek

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 39

Report this Oct. 01 2009, 3:06 pm

I just saw the movie.  I was late seeing it because I didn't want to risk paying for something that offends my trek sensibilities which indeed it did.  I posted a big rant on my forum.  I am not going to post that here because the last time I posted something negative here I got eaten alive.  But there is one important issue I wanted to discuss.  I am troubled by how Vulcans are represented in the latest movie.  My two main gripes are with Spock and Sarek.

The Spock in this alternate universe is very emotional and he even has a girlfriend.  It is as if this alternate Spock chose to side with his humanity unlike the original Spock.  This is a valid choice considering he's half human, but it's an unfortunate choice because it takes away an import dimension from the crew of the Enterprise.  Now there is no character to provide a dispassionate and logical perspective which is what the Spock character was originally designed for.  For me this makes the crew very one dimensional.  They are all varying degrees of human now... young impetuous humans at that.

The new Sarek was a complete departure.  Sarek is one of the most logical and respected Vulcans in the Trek universe.  And of course he is 100% Vulcan so he has no human side like Spock does.  But in the movie we have Sarek admitting feelings of love for his wife.  Sarek would never do this.  But even if we ignore the history of his character in the first Trek universe, his admission of love flies in the face of his Vulcan heritage.

The Vulcans in this alternate universe are being portrayed as "closet humans."  This isn't an invalid choice on the part of the writers, but it's a huge departure for the Trek universe and it takes away an important dimension of the universe in my opinion.

kludge77

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1477

Report this Oct. 01 2009, 3:08 pm

Uh uh dude. Brace yourself.

The pro movie guys are going to flambe you!

Ali88

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 889

Report this Oct. 01 2009, 3:17 pm

In the original timeline, Sarek did have genuine feelings of love for Spock and his wife but he never admitted it and he expressed his pain and regret in that in the TNG episode "Sarek" when Sarek had a mindmeld with pICARD AND Picard is expressing everything that Sarek is feeling

Jakemantrek

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 39

Report this Oct. 01 2009, 3:28 pm

Oh dear, if people are going to argue that Vulcans have always been emotional creatures then we have no common ground on which to discuss my concern. :(

kludge77

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1477

Report this Oct. 01 2009, 3:29 pm

Quote (Jakemantrek @ Oct. 01 2009, 12:06 am)
The Spock in this alternate universe is very emotional and he even has a girlfriend. ¿It is as if this alternate Spock chose to side with his humanity unlike the original Spock. ¿This is a valid choice considering he's half human, but it's an unfortunate choice because it takes away an import dimension from the crew of the Enterprise.

An interesting point. As we've seen with Vulcans who choose emotion  or logic, they tend to abandon the other...

So will they have a passionately logical character, or just a pointy eared human with a long life span and a cool lute.

I'm not sure.

kludge77

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1477

Report this Oct. 01 2009, 3:32 pm

Quote (Jakemantrek @ Oct. 01 2009, 12:28 am)
Oh dear, if people are going to argue that Vulcans have always been emotional creatures then we have no common ground on which to discuss my concern. :(

I like this exchange in Voyager's Gravity episode. with our first full blooded Vulcan character.

YOUNG TUVOK: If I was meant to deny feelings, why was I born with them? Where's the logic in that.
VULCAN MASTER: Hidden for you to find, or in plain sight for you to ignore.
YOUNG TUVOK: You speak in riddles because the truth frightens you.
VULCAN MASTER: You're right, it does frighten me. You're surprised to hear a Vulcan master admit to having emotions?
YOUNG TUVOK: Yes.
VULCAN MASTER: Emotions can be a powerful tool. To deny their existence is illogical. But you must learn to control them.



VULCAN MASTER: No. I'm trying to help you to understand. Shon-ha'lock, love is the most dangerous emotion of all. It produces many other emotions. Jealousy, shame, rage, grief. You must learn to suppress them all, otherwise they will consume you. I can sense emotions building inside you like a gathering storm. If we begin now, we may be able to stop them.

kinda of clarified it for me. They understood that for their race emotion would be their undoing. They solidified that though in ENT.

SaturnsRings

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 0

Report this Oct. 01 2009, 3:49 pm

If Vulcans didn't have emotions in their lives how the heck could any of them fall in love and mate? Sounds pretty boring to me.

Cherry_On_Top

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2039

Report this Oct. 01 2009, 3:54 pm

Quote (Jakemantrek @ Oct. 01 2009, 3:28 pm)
Oh dear, if people are going to argue that Vulcans have always been emotional creatures then we have no common ground on which to discuss my concern. :(

do you not recall that vulcans adopted Surak's teachings because thier world was being destroyed by war? or that the vulcans and romulans were once the same people? ¿


You have to remember that the scenes in the movie where vulcans were displaying emotion were after the destruction of vulcan. Not exactly a normal circumstance and an event that would test all the survivors. ¿


btw " ¿I was late seeing it because I didn't want to risk paying for something that offends my trek sensibilities" ¿best quote of the day ¿:laugh:

kludge77

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1477

Report this Oct. 01 2009, 3:54 pm

Quote (SaturnsRings @ Oct. 01 2009, 12:49 am)
If Vulcans didn't have emotions in their lives how the heck could any of them fall in love and mate? Sounds pretty boring to me.

Sweet mercy! Vulcans don't fall in love. They get shacked up by thier folks like pawns.

Mating takes place once every seven years...and they don't actually look forward to it.

I agree it sounds boring. I'd make a lousy Vulcan male... Um, can I have some more please? But that's Star Trek. If we aren't looking for other cultures why wouldn't we just colonize dead worlds and ignore populated systems.

kludge77

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1477

Report this Oct. 01 2009, 3:57 pm

Quote (Cherry_On_Top @ Oct. 01 2009, 12:54 am)
Quote (Jakemantrek @ Oct. 01 2009, 3:28 pm)
Oh dear, if people are going to argue that Vulcans have always been emotional creatures then we have no common ground on which to discuss my concern. :(

do you not recall that vulcans adopted Sarek's teachings because thier world was being destroyed by war? or that the vulcans and romulans were once the same people? ?


You have to remember that the scenes in the movie where vulcans were displaying emotion were after the destruction of vulcan. Not exactly a normal circumstance and an event that would test all the survivors. ?


btw " ?I was late seeing it because I didn't want to risk paying for something that offends my trek sensibilities" ?best quote of the day ?:laugh:

Suraks teachings had been around for quote a while. I doubt they'd just toss them out.

Surak was a Vulcan philosopher and pacifist, born on Vulcan in 79 B.C.

Cherry_On_Top

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2039

Report this Oct. 01 2009, 3:58 pm

Quote (kludge77 @ Oct. 01 2009, 3:57 pm)
Quote (Cherry_On_Top @ Oct. 01 2009, 12:54 am)
Quote (Jakemantrek @ Oct. 01 2009, 3:28 pm)
Oh dear, if people are going to argue that Vulcans have always been emotional creatures then we have no common ground on which to discuss my concern. :(

do you not recall that vulcans adopted Sarek's teachings because thier world was being destroyed by war? or that the vulcans and romulans were once the same people? ?


You have to remember that the scenes in the movie where vulcans were displaying emotion were after the destruction of vulcan. Not exactly a normal circumstance and an event that would test all the survivors. ?


btw " ?I was late seeing it because I didn't want to risk paying for something that offends my trek sensibilities" ?best quote of the day ?:laugh:

Suraks teachings had been around for quote a while. I doubt they'd just toss them out.

Surak was a Vulcan philosopher and pacifist, born on Vulcan in 79 B.C.

:laugh: ¿I went back and edited it. ¿The names are far too similar


and I'm not saying they would throw them out.  But a catastrophic event like that would test all their control.

kludge77

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1477

Report this Oct. 01 2009, 3:59 pm

Quote (Cherry_On_Top @ Oct. 01 2009, 12:58 am)
Quote (kludge77 @ Oct. 01 2009, 3:57 pm)
Quote (Cherry_On_Top @ Oct. 01 2009, 12:54 am)
Quote (Jakemantrek @ Oct. 01 2009, 3:28 pm)
Oh dear, if people are going to argue that Vulcans have always been emotional creatures then we have no common ground on which to discuss my concern. :(

do you not recall that vulcans adopted Sarek's teachings because thier world was being destroyed by war? or that the vulcans and romulans were once the same people? ?


You have to remember that the scenes in the movie where vulcans were displaying emotion were after the destruction of vulcan. Not exactly a normal circumstance and an event that would test all the survivors. ?


btw " ?I was late seeing it because I didn't want to risk paying for something that offends my trek sensibilities" ?best quote of the day ?:laugh:

Suraks teachings had been around for quote a while. I doubt they'd just toss them out.

Surak was a Vulcan philosopher and pacifist, born on Vulcan in 79 B.C.

:laugh: ?I went back and edited it. ?The names are far too similar

LOL! Dang Vulcans and their un-originality!

Cherry_On_Top

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2039

Report this Oct. 01 2009, 4:00 pm

Quote (Jakemantrek @ Oct. 01 2009, 3:28 pm)
Oh dear, if people are going to argue that Vulcans have always been emotional creatures then we have no common ground on which to discuss my concern. :(

Quote
Vulcans, as a matter of custom and policy, suppress or think past all emotional influence by living lives of rigid emotional self-control through meditative techniques and training of mental discipline. Vulcans are not depicted as having no emotions; although they themselves make this claim, Vulcans are a very emotional people. They developed techniques to suppress their emotions precisely because of the damage they can cause if unchecked. In one episode of Star Trek: Voyager, Tuvok explains that Vulcans' natural emotions are "erratic and volatile"; if Vulcans do not strongly repress emotions, they can get violently angry in an instant. T'Pol once stated that paranoia and homicidal rage were common on Vulcan prior to the adoption of Surak's code of emotional control. In the original series episode "The Savage Curtain", Spock meets Surak and displays emotion, for which Surak reprimands him, and he asks forgiveness.

The advanced ritual of Kolinahr is intended to purge all remaining vestigial emotion; the word also refers to the discipline by which this state is maintained. Only the most devoted and trained Vulcan students attain Kolinahr; most Vulcans do retain control over their emotions, but do not completely eliminate them as Kolinahr attempts to do. In Star Trek: The Motion Picture, Spock was unable to complete this ritual after receiving powerful telepathic signals from space and experiencing strong emotions as a result. The Vulcan masters conducting the trials concluded that since Spock's human blood was touched by these messages from space, he could not have achieved Kolinahr, and the ritual was halted.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulcan_(Star_Trek)

Cherry_On_Top

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2039

Report this Oct. 01 2009, 4:08 pm

google is your friend :p

Jakemantrek

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 39

Report this Oct. 01 2009, 4:09 pm

Quote (starbase63 @ Oct. 01 2009, 3:56 pm)
Vulcans do have emotions, they just supress them.

Exactly correct.  They suppress them.  I didn't see any of this in the new movie.

Forum Permissions

You cannot post new topics in this forum

You cannot reply to topics in this forum

You cannot delete posts in this forum