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Is Janeway a popular Captain?

UNTRugby

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1212

Report this Nov. 14 2009, 1:22 am

Quote (brcarthey @ Nov. 13 2009, 8:21 pm)
Quote (UNTRugby @ Nov. 13 2009, 7:48 pm)
Quote (brcarthey @ Nov. 13 2009, 7:40 pm)
Quote (UNTRugby @ Nov. 13 2009, 7:08 pm)
Im pretty new to star trek started watching the series over the past couple of years and VOY was my last series to watch. I have to say I cant stand janeway her erratic behavior and lack of perspective make her hard to be respected as a captain in my view

how far are you into the series?

as for your assessment, i think janeway's behavior is what makes her the most believable of the modern era trek captains. ?it may be erratic, but i liked that inconsistency for the most part. ?gave her the best touch of humanity IMO out of them all.

just into season 6, i thought sisko was the closest to being real.

like janeway sticking to her starfleet principals on something that would get them all the way home but breaking them to save 2 or 3 months off the journey. It would have been more believable if that had been the other way around and it happened at least twice in both cases which makes it even less believable

hmmm...ok. i guess we'll just have to disagree then. though it might help if you gave specific examples. ?

as for sisko, i guess i can't get past that he's the offspring of a god. ?a regular SF hercules.

ok im not to sure of the episodes but lets see..

janeway holds to her morals on the caretaker and the episodes with the Qs on things that would get them all the way home

janeway breaks her morals on the one with the swarm ships and the one where the steal a borg traswarp coil

Also when someone steps out of line just an inch she instantly drops the hammer on them and she doesnt have to account SF command or any admirals. She has free reign to step out of line when ever she pleases and doesn't let advice from her senior staff get in the way. Like the season 6 opener when chakotay stop her from murdering a starfleet officer and gets relived of duty for his efforts. In the end the closest thing he gets to an apology is "you might have had a good reason to start a mutiny"

as for sisko him being conceived by the prophets was kinda corny but thats just how he was written, how he acts and commands is pretty real

I like janeway as a person and she was well acted and she might be "real" but i would just find it hard to take orders from her

brcarthey

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2608

Report this Nov. 14 2009, 10:04 pm

Quote (UNTRugby @ Nov. 14 2009, 1:22 am)
Quote (brcarthey @ Nov. 13 2009, 8:21 pm)
Quote (UNTRugby @ Nov. 13 2009, 7:48 pm)
Quote (brcarthey @ Nov. 13 2009, 7:40 pm)
Quote (UNTRugby @ Nov. 13 2009, 7:08 pm)
Im pretty new to star trek started watching the series over the past couple of years and VOY was my last series to watch. I have to say I cant stand janeway her erratic behavior and lack of perspective make her hard to be respected as a captain in my view

how far are you into the series?

as for your assessment, i think janeway's behavior is what makes her the most believable of the modern era trek captains. ?it may be erratic, but i liked that inconsistency for the most part. ?gave her the best touch of humanity IMO out of them all.

just into season 6, i thought sisko was the closest to being real.

like janeway sticking to her starfleet principals on something that would get them all the way home but breaking them to save 2 or 3 months off the journey. It would have been more believable if that had been the other way around and it happened at least twice in both cases which makes it even less believable

hmmm...ok. i guess we'll just have to disagree then. though it might help if you gave specific examples. ?

as for sisko, i guess i can't get past that he's the offspring of a god. ?a regular SF hercules.

ok im not to sure of the episodes but lets see..

janeway holds to her morals on the caretaker and the episodes with the Qs on things that would get them all the way home

janeway breaks her morals on the one with the swarm ships and the one where the steal a borg traswarp coil

Also when someone steps out of line just an inch she instantly drops the hammer on them and she doesnt have to account SF command or any admirals. She has free reign to step out of line when ever she pleases and doesn't let advice from her senior staff get in the way. Like the season 6 opener when chakotay stop her from murdering a starfleet officer and gets relived of duty for his efforts. In the end the closest thing he gets to an apology is "you might have had a good reason to start a mutiny"

as for sisko him being conceived by the prophets was kinda corny but thats just how he was written, how he acts and commands is pretty real

I like janeway as a person and she was well acted and she might be "real" but i would just find it hard to take orders from her

i can see your conflict with caretaker and her behaving differently when it comes to the borg. so instead of being monolithic and static in thought, she adapts to the situation and applies starfleets rules as she best thinks fits said situation. what you call erratc i say she's dynamic in nature. she's not a "one rule fits all" type of gal, but neither was kirk.

Dbear1

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1594

Report this Nov. 15 2009, 1:31 pm

Have to agree with bcarthey on this one, Janeway tried to stick to her morals and SF doctrine as much as she could, but she also had to be pragmatic enough to adjust when circumstances dictated it.

If she had strictly followed SF rules, she and her crew never would have gotten home, or likely survived at all. She had to make judgment calls along the way and hope those actions would not have unintended repercussions.

Ironically the closest she came to losing her way morally IMO was in case where she was trying to uphold SF morals in Equinox.  Chakotay saw what was happening and tried to block some of her actions, but she became obsessed with punishing the crew of the Equinox.

UNTRugby

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1212

Report this Nov. 15 2009, 5:23 pm

Janeway break starfleet protocols invades swarm space and ends up destroying dozens of their ships in an effort to save 2 months of their journey, then on the other hand all she had to do was "condem" Q to a life of immortality and she could have gotten her crew all the way home. I wouldn't call that dynamic id call it poor decision making. There is a time to break SF protocol, I would think knocking 70 years off the journey might be the time. Her mantra the whole time is "Just because were 70,000 light years from home were still starfleet" so I would just assume there wouldnt be much reason to break that just to save 2 months or to take revenge on a captain who didnt follow it

brcarthey

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2608

Report this Nov. 15 2009, 10:06 pm

Quote (UNTRugby @ Nov. 15 2009, 5:23 pm)
Janeway break starfleet protocols invades swarm space and ends up destroying dozens of their ships in an effort to save 2 months of their journey, then on the other hand all she had to do was "condem" Q to a life of immortality and she could have gotten her crew all the way home. I wouldn't call that dynamic id call it poor decision making. There is a time to break SF protocol, I would think knocking 70 years off the journey might be the time. Her mantra the whole time is "Just because were 70,000 light years from home were still starfleet" so I would just assume there wouldnt be much reason to break that just to save 2 months or to take revenge on a captain who didnt follow it

tom and b'elanna crossed into the swarm's unmarked territory and were attacked without warning, injuring tom severely. janeway then tried to communicate with them to no avail. the only reason she crossed the swarm's territory is b/c she felt like they were being intergalactic bullies to them and others.  is that the most dignified reaction? no, but i can't exactly blame her as i would probably have reacted the same way.

as for her not being a crooked arbitrator when she promised to be fair and impartial, i think you basically proved her ethics and morals right there when you say she refused to take the bribe from Q.  

when you start out with a new challenge you're usually full of optimism and vigor.  as time goes on that can wain especially if you're always defending yourself from attack. in this regard, janeway is again acting like most normal people would.  her ship was alone. she didn't have starfleet resources and backup at her beck and call. she had to make the most of a bad situation.

lastly, this is a tv show that was slated to run for multiple seasons. if she had used the caretaker's array to get back to the AQ, we wouldn't have had voyager. end of story.

UNTRugby

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1212

Report this Nov. 15 2009, 10:37 pm

Quote (brcarthey @ Nov. 15 2009, 10:06 pm)
Quote (UNTRugby @ Nov. 15 2009, 5:23 pm)
Janeway break starfleet protocols invades swarm space and ends up destroying dozens of their ships in an effort to save 2 months of their journey, then on the other hand all she had to do was "condem" Q to a life of immortality and she could have gotten her crew all the way home. I wouldn't call that dynamic id call it poor decision making. There is a time to break SF protocol, I would think knocking 70 years off the journey might be the time. Her mantra the whole time is "Just because were 70,000 light years from home were still starfleet" so I would just assume there wouldnt be much reason to break that just to save 2 months or to take revenge on a captain who didnt follow it

tom and b'elanna crossed into the swarm's unmarked territory and were attacked without warning, injuring tom severely. janeway then tried to communicate with them to no avail. the only reason she crossed the swarm's territory is b/c she felt like they were being intergalactic bullies to them and others. ¿is that the most dignified reaction? no, but i can't exactly blame her as i would probably have reacted the same way.

as for her not being a crooked arbitrator when she promised to be fair and impartial, i think you basically proved her ethics and morals right there when you say she refused to take the bribe from Q. ¿

when you start out with a new challenge you're usually full of optimism and vigor. ¿as time goes on that can wain especially if you're always defending yourself from attack. in this regard, janeway is again acting like most normal people would. ¿her ship was alone. she didn't have starfleet resources and backup at her beck and call. she had to make the most of a bad situation.

lastly, this is a tv show that was slated to run for multiple seasons. if she had used the caretaker's array to get back to the AQ, we wouldn't have had voyager. end of story.

Janeway does have good morals for the most part but for whatever reason (mostly plot devices) she seems to randomly break them. I guess that would be more of a problem with Voyager than Janeway but Janeway is Voyager. Without her it would be rather boring, Tuvok was my favorite character but he would be boring to watch command a ship for 7 seasons. As for Janeway "doing what any person would do", she probably did do what any 21st century person would do but those 24th century people are very different. I remember watching TNG and a crew member would have something crazy happen and time after time picard would take them at their word. No matter the amount of trust that has been built it wouldnt happen like that in today's world

brcarthey

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2608

Report this Nov. 16 2009, 8:37 pm

Quote (UNTRugby @ Nov. 15 2009, 10:37 pm)
Quote (brcarthey @ Nov. 15 2009, 10:06 pm)
Quote (UNTRugby @ Nov. 15 2009, 5:23 pm)
Janeway break starfleet protocols invades swarm space and ends up destroying dozens of their ships in an effort to save 2 months of their journey, then on the other hand all she had to do was "condem" Q to a life of immortality and she could have gotten her crew all the way home. I wouldn't call that dynamic id call it poor decision making. There is a time to break SF protocol, I would think knocking 70 years off the journey might be the time. Her mantra the whole time is "Just because were 70,000 light years from home were still starfleet" so I would just assume there wouldnt be much reason to break that just to save 2 months or to take revenge on a captain who didnt follow it

tom and b'elanna crossed into the swarm's unmarked territory and were attacked without warning, injuring tom severely. janeway then tried to communicate with them to no avail. the only reason she crossed the swarm's territory is b/c she felt like they were being intergalactic bullies to them and others. ?is that the most dignified reaction? no, but i can't exactly blame her as i would probably have reacted the same way.

as for her not being a crooked arbitrator when she promised to be fair and impartial, i think you basically proved her ethics and morals right there when you say she refused to take the bribe from Q. ?

when you start out with a new challenge you're usually full of optimism and vigor. ?as time goes on that can wain especially if you're always defending yourself from attack. in this regard, janeway is again acting like most normal people would. ?her ship was alone. she didn't have starfleet resources and backup at her beck and call. she had to make the most of a bad situation.

lastly, this is a tv show that was slated to run for multiple seasons. if she had used the caretaker's array to get back to the AQ, we wouldn't have had voyager. end of story.

Janeway does have good morals for the most part but for whatever reason (mostly plot devices) she seems to randomly break them. I guess that would be more of a problem with Voyager than Janeway but Janeway is Voyager. Without her it would be rather boring, Tuvok was my favorite character but he would be boring to watch command a ship for 7 seasons. As for Janeway "doing what any person would do", she probably did do what any 21st century person would do but those 24th century people are very different. I remember watching TNG and a crew member would have something crazy happen and time after time picard would take them at their word. No matter the amount of trust that has been built it wouldnt happen like that in today's world

but, see, you have pointed out what many people have said was wrong with TNG...humanity was close to perfect by the 24th century.  after seeing a 23rd century crew (TOS) with its flaws, the next crew we get in the 24th century has become almost without flaws--all in the span of ~80 years.  even most of DS9's crew was closer to VOY's crew in terms of being emotionally flawed.  

but, still VOY's crew had overcome many of the flaws we see in today's society but still have enough that we can identify with them, IMO, more readily than the TNG crew.

different strokes...i guess.

anothercrewman

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 48

Report this Dec. 09 2009, 8:39 pm

Quote (kludge77 @ Sep. 29 2009, 3:39 pm)
I recall a lot of fans at the time calling her "moody" Some days she was all "StarFleet Principles" and other days she was about "whatever it takes to get home"

I thought it made her more real. I liked that her moods effected her positions. Hell, she even played favouritism with the crew. Loved Janeway!

Me too.

anothercrewman

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 48

Report this Dec. 09 2009, 8:43 pm

Quote (brcarthey @ Nov. 13 2009, 7:40 pm)
i think janeway's behavior is what makes her the most believable of the modern era trek captains. ¿it may be erratic, but i liked that inconsistency for the most part. ¿gave her the best touch of humanity IMO out of them all.

That's what I always thought too.

Dbear1

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1594

Report this Dec. 10 2009, 7:08 pm

Quote (brcarthey @ Nov. 16 2009, 8:37 pm)
but, see, you have pointed out what many people have said was wrong with TNG...humanity was close to perfect by the 24th century. ¿after seeing a 23rd century crew (TOS) with its flaws, the next crew we get in the 24th century has become almost without flaws--all in the span of ~80 years. ¿even most of DS9's crew was closer to VOY's crew in terms of being emotionally flawed. ¿

but, still VOY's crew had overcome many of the flaws we see in today's society but still have enough that we can identify with them, IMO, more readily than the TNG crew.

different strokes...i guess.

Agree totally with that, that was my major problem with TNG; I just did not find the crew believable, especially Picard (not knocking Patrick Stewart who I think is very good, but the character).  I do not care how far in the future you go, humans will still be humans and they will make mistakes, have bad days and have faults.

TNG was really the only ST show that went this route and to be honest I find it boring to watch now days.  All the rest showed humans and aliens having faults and disagreements and everything else that makes us individuals.

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