ATTENTION: The Boards will be closed permanently on May 28th, 2014. Posting will be disabled on April 28th, 2014. More Info

Voyagers Homecoming

teya1020

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2763

Report this Oct. 01 2009, 5:59 pm

Quote (SLagonia @ Sep. 30 2009, 1:25 am)
Quote (brcarthey @ Sep. 28 2009, 12:12 pm)
Quote (SLagonia @ Sep. 29 2009, 12:50 am)
Quote (Josh_Lyman @ Sep. 27 2009, 10:59 pm)
Quote (SLagonia @ Sep. 27 2009, 5:23 am)
Quote (Josh_Lyman @ Sep. 27 2009, 5:21 am)
I was liked "Endgame" very much. I was totally satisfied with the story and how Voyager returned home.

Janeway wiped trillions out of existence to save one life, and acted like what she was doing was the most selfless thing imaginable.

At least in Timeless, Harry and Chakotay admitted they were cheating fate and screwing with the timeline. ?

Speaking of which, the greatest Voyager episode of all time, Timeless, was basicly this same plot except it was a genuine effort, whereas Endgame was a cheap imitation that failed to live up to its original. ?

And lastly, it didn't tie any loose ends up. ?The show didn't end, it just sorta stopped going forward. ?This was a character driven show - The internal was far more important than the external. ?Yet, they closed the external and let the internal just hang there.

Janeway did the right thing in "wiping out the Borg. They were enemies of the Federation and all sentient life. I disagree with your opinion about "Endgame".

I meant the people she wiped from the timeline, but if you'd like to discuss her genocide, we can do that too.

the federation was at war with the borg. ?so if you consider that genocide then by that logic i take it you think all the germans and japanese who were killed by allied forces committed genocide during WWII.

it sounds like you'd believe in "death panels" being included in the health care reform bills.

as for the her "wiping out people," how could she wipe them out if in the new timeline they don't exist yet? PLUS, who's to say that those people don't exist in the new timeline? Or if you'd like to believe in the multiverse theory, then a new universe was created when voyager got home earlier thus preserving the original timeline from which the original janeway came from. ?remember that multiverses have already been mentioned like in the episode "non sequitur."

First of all, I didn't say she was wrong in killing the Borg, but it was genocide.

You consider genocide okay in some instances?

What would those be?

SLagonia

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 18170

Report this Oct. 02 2009, 1:04 am

Alright, let's focus this genocide debate right here;

First of all, let me explain to you the definition of genocide I am using - Trying to wipe an entire species out of existence, and doing so to every member of that species, whether they pose a threat or not.

Janeway's goal here was to kill every Borg.  Not destroy their weapons or kill their defensive drones, but all Borg.

Now, was she right or wrong in doing this?  Well, it is a mirky issue.  Picard had this opportunity and passed it up because he didn't feel it was right to sentence an entire race to death.

Now, I agree with Janeway, and disagree with Picard; There is a defacto state of war between the Federation and The Borg, and every Borg was a soldier capable of harming Federation citizens.  It it unsettling, it is unfortunate and it is not neccissarily morally correct or a very Star Trek thing to do, but it is the most practical and responsible thing.  It's one thing to say it is wrong, it is another thing to cost your species millions of lives because you feel uncomfortable giving the order to wipe them out.

Now, that being said, this is still genocide.  It's justifiable, but it is still genocide.

As for the assertion that I am ok with genocide in general, let me remind you that this is a special case.  If, for example, an entire race of people suddenly stood up and tried to destroy the world, wiping them out might not be a bad thing.  However if one of them was living here and busy being one of us, I wouldn't try to kill him too just because he belongs to that race.  

And this is what it all comes down to - I decry genocide, but if it were done because everyone killed was trying to do major harm, well maybe that isn't so bad.  We don't run into any cases on Earth where something like this would happen, but if everyone in New Jersey suddenly got up and became cybernetic zombies bent on world domination, I'd be ok with wiping them out.

Josh_Lyman

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 5520

Report this Oct. 02 2009, 9:51 am

Quote (SLagonia @ Oct. 01 2009, 2:04 am)
but if everyone in New Jersey suddenly got up and became cybernetic zombies bent on world domination, I'd be ok with wiping them out.

except that will never happen.  :)

exodus201

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 0

Report this Oct. 02 2009, 10:08 am

I swear, does this place have a quota on how many crazy people can have a membership here?

:laugh:

captbates

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 12614

Report this Oct. 03 2009, 5:01 pm

Quote (JOYOFVGR @ Sep. 28 2009, 8:05 pm)
Quote (exodus201 @ Sep. 29 2009, 2:42 pm)

Once again, if it was such a detriment to so many, why didn't the Temporal police stop her?

You never know, they could always play that card in the novels to put Voyager back in the Delta Quadrant and resurrect Captain Janeway. :D

The temporal "police" wouldn't do any thing about Admiral Janeway changing the timeline, because as far as they are concerned history was never changed, from their perspective in the 29th century that is exactly how things were supposed to play out.

captbates

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 12614

Report this Oct. 03 2009, 5:20 pm

Quote (SLagonia @ Sep. 29 2009, 6:29 am)
Quote (JOYOFVGR @ Sep. 28 2009, 11:43 am)
I do agree that trillions of lives were changed, but I'm not sure I agree that they were wiped out or didn't exist at all.

Many life forms will no longer exist, and many new ones will exist. ¿The entire future is altered in ways she could never predict. ¿Many will now have never existed. ¿That's a pretty lousy thing to do just so you could save a crew member. ¿I know Seven was like a daughter to her, but she's a Starfleet captain, and she needs to think of the universe first and herself second.

Look at Kirk in City on the Edge of Forever - He had to let the woman he loved die in order to save all of humanity. ¿He sacrificed his happiness for the benifit of all humanity. ¿Janeway played with time like it was her own little sandbox and all because she didn't like how things turned out.

I wonder if Janeway considered it retribution after siding with the Borg caused the death or assimilation of countless millions. She not only had the chance to redress the balance of that decision by changing those 25 years, but (perhaps) with Arturis in mind she could ease her conscience.

Stopping the Borg was a good tactical decision.

captbates

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 12614

Report this Oct. 03 2009, 5:29 pm

Quote (exodus201 @ Oct. 01 2009, 3:08 pm)
I swear, does this place have a quota on how many crazy people can have a membership here?

:laugh:

*throws sink through window*


RUN FOR IT

:D

:laugh:

JOYOFVGR

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 11594

Report this Oct. 03 2009, 5:32 pm

Quote (exodus201 @ Oct. 02 2009, 10:08 am)
I swear, does this place have a quota on how many crazy people can have a membership here?

:laugh:

No.

exodus201

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 0

Report this Oct. 03 2009, 7:37 pm

Quote (captbates @ Oct. 03 2009, 5:29 pm)
Quote (exodus201 @ Oct. 01 2009, 3:08 pm)
I swear, does this place have a quota on how many crazy people can have a membership here?

:laugh:

*throws sink through window*


RUN FOR IT

:D

:laugh:

Thanks, Chief!

:laugh:

SLagonia

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 18170

Report this Oct. 03 2009, 11:39 pm

Quote (captbates @ Oct. 02 2009, 8:20 pm)
Stopping the Borg was a good tactical decision.

No argument here.  I don't think that was ever actually contested.

I think this could actually raise interesting questions about what is the right thing to do versus what is going to benefit the most people.  This was a discussion brought up in I, Borg, and while I disagreed with the final decission, I did see where Picard was coming from and find it hard to blame him for what he did.  

But this wasn't even hinted at in Endgame.  God forbid we might actually have to think about something during a Trek episode!

SLagonia

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 18170

Report this Oct. 03 2009, 11:40 pm

Quote (Josh_Lyman @ Oct. 01 2009, 12:51 pm)
Quote (SLagonia @ Oct. 01 2009, 2:04 am)
but if everyone in New Jersey suddenly got up and became cybernetic zombies bent on world domination, I'd be ok with wiping them out.

except that will never happen. ¿:)

I don't know, nothing from Jersey surprises me.  :laugh:

exodus201

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 0

Report this Oct. 05 2009, 9:07 am

Quote (SLagonia @ Oct. 03 2009, 11:39 pm)
But this wasn't even hinted at in Endgame. ?God forbid we might actually have to think about something during a Trek episode!

They didn't have too, it was already hinted at in "First Contact".

Starfleet wasn't comformtable with Picards position on the Borg. ¿They found him to "sympathic" to the Borg, which is why they didn't want him on the frontlines against them. ¿The Borg wish to wipe out all humanity, any hesitation in destroying them to prevent that is a weakness on Picard's side. ¿It wasn't brought up in "Endgame" because his view is all ready established as wrong.  The Borg are of one mind, so there are no innocent.  They all wish us gone.

RomulanValdore

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 123

Report this Nov. 03 2009, 5:23 am

I would have like that Seven of Nine discovered the transport hub and that Voyager found a way to get in, destroyed the Hub,and managed to make it home.

Th whole futuristic thing was fine and i liked the original idea, but i also thought my idea was more plausible. Seven could have found a massive energy signal and linked it to the trans-warp hub with her Borg history.

Jennifer Gaynor

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 5

Report this Jan. 20 2011, 6:26 am

it would have been nice if they had been left stranded...blah...blah...but it was ALSO nice in the fact that they ALL made it home as well - on the other hand I wish they had left it open for the chance to at least make a COUPLE of movies and then finish it up with "Endgame"

Recently logged in

Users browsing this forum: Drunkin Druid, darmokattanagra

Forum Permissions

You cannot post new topics in this forum

You cannot reply to topics in this forum

You cannot delete posts in this forum