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Star Trek is dead...

kludge77

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POSTS: 1477

Report this Sep. 23 2009, 3:18 pm

Quote (trekbuff @ Sep. 23 2009, 2:40 pm)
It is my opinion there will never again be another Trek TV series based on the old Trek history/canon. Enterprise was cancelled and STXI made a huge amount of money. CBS/Paramount/? lost sight of Trek a long time ago and it simply became a cash cow. STXI has proven it to TPTB that Trek no longer need be about "old" Trek. Sorry, folks, but it's gone.

It's entirely possible that this is true. I have no idea. What can we do besides express our thoughts and wait? At least there are those here who have a love of the franchise, and are willing to express their views. Either for or against.

Regardless for me. I'd rather have watered down Star Trek than no Star Trek. Who knows, in 10 years I might be defending this canon! (doesn't seem likely now.)

RomulusRemus

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Report this Sep. 23 2009, 3:26 pm

That comment about  DVDs still existing is pretty snide.
Why do Trek fans buy into the comments of this jackass.

Admiral_BlackCat

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Report this Sep. 23 2009, 3:56 pm

Bob Orci is the man!! I love his interviews and his sense of humor.

SaturnsRings

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Report this Sep. 23 2009, 4:01 pm

Quote (RomulusRemus @ Sep. 23 2009, 3:26 pm)
That comment about ¿DVDs still existing is pretty snide.
Why do Trek fans buy into the comments of this jackass.

For all the people complaining that this new movie some how destroys previous Star trek a reality check that their DVDs are still working is generally needed.

Narada

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Report this Sep. 23 2009, 4:06 pm

You are making a good post but a few things I wish to comment. I do not feel Star Trek is mainly about continuity or canon. In the beginning the Original Series was episodic and did not focus on continuity. It can be watched out of order with very little problem. For me continuity became more of a problem because fans will complain and refuse to watch something when there is error. An error or change is likely to occur when there is much continuity. So it is not a lack of talent for staying in continuity but as Abrams states it is like serving a master. You are needing to follow rules of people who will denounce your work if they are not followed and meanwhile new people are not caring. New people cannot follow within much continuity which is the real problem but not a lack of writing talent.

There is at least one place in the new movie I can think of when they state it occurs in an alternate universe. "An alternate reality?"
"Precisely. Whatever our lives might have been, if the time continuum was disrupted, our destinies have changed."

? ?- Nyota Uhura and Spock

kludge77

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POSTS: 1477

Report this Sep. 23 2009, 4:11 pm

Quote (trekbuff @ Sep. 23 2009, 3:58 pm)
Quote (kludge77 @ Sep. 23 2009, 3:18 pm)
Quote (trekbuff @ Sep. 23 2009, 2:40 pm)
It is my opinion there will never again be another Trek TV series based on the old Trek history/canon. Enterprise was cancelled and STXI made a huge amount of money. CBS/Paramount/? lost sight of Trek a long time ago and it simply became a cash cow. STXI has proven it to TPTB that Trek no longer need be about "old" Trek. Sorry, folks, but it's gone.

It's entirely possible that this is true. I have no idea. What can we do besides express our thoughts and wait? At least there are those here who have a love of the franchise, and are willing to express their views. Either for or against.

Regardless for me. I'd rather have watered down Star Trek than no Star Trek. Who knows, in 10 years I might be defending this canon! (doesn't seem likely now.)

Lately, I've been told what I was thinking and how my biases colour my opinion of the movie. I've been told my [u]opinion[/i] is wrong because someone disagrees with me rather than discussing the basis for my opinion. And, I've been told the movie has been produced and released so there is no need to discuss what might or should have been.

If someone says the only reason STXI was made was to milk the cash cow they will inevitably be told that is what Paramount is in business for, totally avoiding any point made by the original poster.

If someone says they don't like something about the movie they are soon to be pounced upon by the gusher squad for daring to post their opinion.

Expressing one's opinion either way quickly goes from discussion to having to actually defend one's comments. Even when rational support for one's opinion is given their opinion is often challanged as being wrong to the point of being called an idiot. This is being done by both sides of virtually any topic.

I'm one who enjoyed the common thread of historic Trek. The movie was even advertised as "THIS IS NOT YOUR FATHER'S STAR TREK." No kidding...

They would have been better off saying it was a reboot that trying to flim-flam existing fans. Either way, STXI is different from historic Trek. My opinion? It's not as good as the original. I was too busy trying to ignore the cinematography and make sense of weak spots and holes in the story left on the cutting room floor. Could it be they didn't want us to see a Klingon because of what happened with Enterprise? Hmmmmm..... ;)

Oh, I love Trek and was tickled and rather surprised to get a new movie. I got around the NCC-1701 looking different. I'll never give a pass to that ridiculous bridge. I wanted a good story and basically got one. But, we had smoke blown up our collective arses for five months before the movie was released, many fans seem to have bought into it and I get flack because I don't appreciate the b.s. and incongruencies in the logic of the movie itself. STXI really was a mess both in build up and presentation. How many times did I have to hear and read the movie wasn't made for me? Right before the movie was released in theatres, "THIS IS NOT YOUR FATHER'S STAR TREK"???!!!

They got that right.

Pretty good story, mostly wonderful actors and I personally enjoyed the musical score. But, how dare I find any fault with the movie?!

I'll be buying my copy of STXI as soon as it comes out. I want to see ANYWHERE where it says or even hints that it takes place in an alternate universe. Orci's b.s. was fire control, nothing more, and he made unsupported claims in doing so...

I think you and I are of a similar mindset.. You liked the film but don't want to pretend that it made PERFECT sense.

It was a reboot, and they are going a new direction, and we do accept it, but we don't have to like every part of it.

I will not go as far as you to say, Star Trek is dead, it certainly is much different that what originally drew me into Star Trek. Again...I'm still watching it.

Admiral_BlackCat

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Report this Sep. 23 2009, 4:45 pm

Quote (trekbuff @ Sep. 23 2009, 1:09 pm)
Quote (RomulusRemus @ Sep. 23 2009, 3:26 pm)
That comment about ?DVDs still existing is pretty snide.
Why do Trek fans buy into the comments of this jackass.

It was clearly a condescending comment to the Trek purists who were complaining STXI was changing Trek history.

Fans buy into it for many reasons. The most mentioned reason is he co-wrote the script so he should know. However, nothing of the kind was said until those reviews of the 20 (23) minutes of the movie were shown to the press, they wrote their reviews and the fans complained.

Another reason is that fans can now relax with the delusion that their historic Trek continues. It seems Orci's blither has comforted some of them. There's still nothing canon that backs him up. In fact, his theories fly in the face of the very canon he claimed to be respecting. Curious... ;)

Quote (Admiral_BlackCat @ Sep. 23 2009, 3:56 pm)
Bob Orci is the man!! I love his interviews and his sense of humor.
Nor do I believe Orci is a jackass. His little interview worked for many preexisting fans, right?

Actually, I never needed Orci to explain it for me. The idea that quantum mechanics is at play in THIS timetravel story was easy for me to comprehend and accept. His interview just REAFFIRMED, for me, the rumors and speculations that I was already aware of regarding quantum mechanics and multi-worlds. I mean, basically, as soon as I heard quantum mechanics was involved I said to myself "Makes sense." no convincing required.
So yes, his interview worked for me, but not to convince, just reaffirm.

And not to defend him, but I believe the DVD comment was in response to equally snide remarks for fans.

SaturnsRings

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POSTS: 0

Report this Sep. 23 2009, 4:51 pm

Quote (trekbuff @ Sep. 23 2009, 4:16 pm)
Quote (SaturnsRings @ Sep. 23 2009, 4:01 pm)
Quote (RomulusRemus @ Sep. 23 2009, 3:26 pm)
That comment about ?DVDs still existing is pretty snide.
Why do Trek fans buy into the comments of this jackass.

For all the people complaining that this new movie some how destroys previous Star trek a reality check that their DVDs are still working is generally needed.

What instrument do you play, SaturnsRings?

Just as predicted - totally missing or even avoiding the point.

What instrument do I play??? I play the guitar?

It won't be the first time I have missed the point.  :)

kludge77

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POSTS: 1477

Report this Sep. 23 2009, 5:08 pm

Quote (trekbuff @ Sep. 23 2009, 5:03 pm)
Quote (kludge77 @ Sep. 23 2009, 4:11 pm)
I will not go as far as you to say, Star Trek is dead, it certainly is much different that what originally drew me into Star Trek. Again...I'm still watching it.

Easy, kludge77.. What I said in the topic title and quoted from a review was, "Star Trek Is Dead. Long Live Star Trek!"

I would have much rather had the movie named something other than simply Star Trek. It was called Star Trek: The Future Begins in Malaysia: English title. I would have much rather had the movie declared a reboot than be finessed by condescending comments by Orci and told the moive was respecting canon.

I've already said in this thread what I liked about the movie. There was a lot I didn't like about it, mostly the cinematography and that bridge. Yup, I'll be buying my copy November 17th.

Understood. We definitely are on the same page then.

Star Trek: The Future Begins. I like it.

TrekFan1701E

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POSTS: 14979

Report this Sep. 23 2009, 5:10 pm

Quote (trekbuff @ Sep. 23 2009, 2:40 pm)
STXI will be released on DVD and Blu-Ray November 17, 2009. Most of the threads discussing the movie and most problems folk had/have with the movie are conviently no longer accessible. However, gone also are most threads and comments praising the movie. The baby was thrown out with the bath water.

Many existing fans questioned the pictures we saw of the new version of the NCC-1701. We discussed the lighting on the bridge of the STXI version of the ship. We were told the movie would respect existing Trek canon. Most of us were anxious to see the movie. Some of us were amazed and grateful we were getting new Trek so soon after the cancellation of Enterprise. Some of us were willing to overlook some of the differences and hope for a good story. Wasn't that what most of us liked about Trek - the stories presented by amazing characters with whom we could identify?

Then came the 20 minutes released to the press. Comments such as, "Star Trek Is Dead. Long Live Star Trek!" were headlining the Internet -
Source: Twenty Minutes of Scenes Screened in New York, November 17, 2008
- and fans began to ask serious questions about the story. TPTB seemed to feel the need for damage control. Enter Roberto Orci, co-writer of the STXI script.

According to Orci, ALL time travel creates a bubble universe. This alone contradicts traditional Trek canon. It is only one of many theories and as a theory it has yet to be tested::laugh: We can do that along with all of the characters including the NCC-1701.

Many questions remain unanswered from STXI. A quality story would not have left it so. Orci's blither after the fact - the story was written and the movie was already in the can - does not alter what was/was not seen or heard in the movie.

The biggie? Why didn't Nero destroy Hobus immediately after obtaining the Red Matter? He already knew he had traveled back in time... :question: Orci would have us believe it was not the same universe. Then, why destroy that planet Vulcan? Nothing fits the A.U. excuse.

So, now, folks are coming up with new excuses for STXI. It was an introductory movie. There were holes and things which didn't make sense because there was so much to do in the two hour time limit of the movie. The next movie will, hopefully, fill in the blanks and be a better, more meaty story.

Are we hoping for a Manny Coto figure to come in and clean up the STXI mess? Is it not needed because many fans have reasoned it out for themselves, isolating STXI from "historical" Trek by placing it in a parallel universe with no canon evidence? Is my Trek ("NOT YOUR FATHER'S TREK") simply over?

It is my opinion there will never again be another Trek TV series based on the old Trek history/canon. Enterprise was cancelled and STXI made a huge amount of money. CBS/Paramount/? lost sight of Trek a long time ago and it simply became a cash cow. STXI has proven it to TPTB that Trek no longer need be about "old" Trek. Sorry, folks, but it's gone. And as Orci put it:;)

The beauty of it all is so many folks seem to have investigated historic Trek because of seeing STXI and many of them appear to be enjoying it

As the man said, "Star Trek Is Dead. Long Live Star Trek!"

:sick:

TrekFan1701E

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POSTS: 14979

Report this Sep. 23 2009, 5:22 pm

So what if the old timeline is gone? Like Orci said they will still be on DVD's for Trek fans to enjoy.  Also they could still do a series set in the 24th Century based on the new timeline and that new Timeline still has Picard and the Enterprise in it. It would be a question if they stick to the comics and still have Picard or Data as it's Captain. The only other question is if the events of DS9 and Voyager still happened they way they did in the old timeline. They could have happened a different way.

Vice_Adm_Baxter

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POSTS: 0

Report this Sep. 23 2009, 5:54 pm

Quote (trekbuff @ Sep. 23 2009, 11:40 am)
STXI will be released on DVD and Blu-Ray November 17, 2009. Most of the threads discussing the movie and most problems folk had/have with the movie are conviently no longer accessible. However, gone also are most threads and comments praising the movie. The baby was thrown out with the bath water.

Many existing fans questioned the pictures we saw of the new version of the NCC-1701. We discussed the lighting on the bridge of the STXI version of the ship. We were told the movie would respect existing Trek canon. Most of us were anxious to see the movie. Some of us were amazed and grateful we were getting new Trek so soon after the cancellation of Enterprise. Some of us were willing to overlook some of the differences and hope for a good story. Wasn't that what most of us liked about Trek - the stories presented by amazing characters with whom we could identify?

Then came the 20 minutes released to the press. Comments such as, "Star Trek Is Dead. Long Live Star Trek!" were headlining the Internet -
Source: Twenty Minutes of Scenes Screened in New York, November 17, 2008
- and fans began to ask serious questions about the story. TPTB seemed to feel the need for damage control. Enter Roberto Orci, co-writer of the STXI script.

According to Orci, ALL time travel creates a bubble universe. This alone contradicts traditional Trek canon. It is only one of many theories and as a theory it has yet to be tested:
Quote
Many folks have questioned the "tested" (NOT) A.U. explaination. I still do. If one questions it now, we get lumped in with Matt and DJ because we do not agree with the "say it ain't so" contrivances of so many fans ignoring the fact that there was nothing seen or said on screen to support Orci's after-the-fact blither. Yup, Orci put a mental band-aid on the collective Trek fan boo-boo. All better now?


I don't care about what Orci said since it wasn't part of the movie.

There IS  an on screen explanation of the A.U.  as being where the events of TREK XI  had taken place. It was in the mind meld between nuKirk and Spock prime. It my not have been crystal clear as some would preffer yet it was there none the less.

Quote
STXI either made null and void previous Trek time travel canon or it changed the prime timeline. If STXI is not part of previous Trek history/canon then it IS a reboot and is its own Star Trek, much the same as the Tin Man TV mini-series. Trek is not Batman, James Bond, Superman or anything of the kind. If it were, we would have been discussing, "Which is your favorite Captain Kirk." Oh, wait! We can do that now! :laugh: We can do that along with all of the characters including the NCC-1701.


Why does it have to be either null and void OR changed the prime timeline?

It's obviously a reboot and is it's own STAR TREK and is explained be being set in an A.U.

Quote
The biggie? Why didn't Nero destroy Hobus immediately after obtaining the Red Matter? He already knew he had traveled back in time... :question: Orci would have us believe it was not the same universe. Then, why destroy that planet Vulcan? Nothing fits the A.U. excuse.


Simply put Nero was so mad at Spock he must have been blinded by his anger not to do this. I might be wrong yet it is the only reasonable explanation.

Quote
Are we hoping for a Manny Coto figure to come in and clean up the STXI mess? Is it not needed because many fans have reasoned it out for themselves, isolating STXI from "historical" Trek by placing it in a parallel universe with no canon evidence? Is my Trek ("NOT YOUR FATHER'S TREK") simply over?


Some might be hoping for that. OUR TREK might be over, its hard too tell at this point.

Quote
Bob: Yes, and you will notice that whenever the movie comes out, that whatever DVDs you have purchased, will continue to exist.
Source: Bob Orci Explains How The New Star Trek Movie Fits With Trek Canon (and Real Science)


It makes sense that they will follow the "new" TREK from a business stand point. I have little doubt that this is the route they will take. Only time will tell for certain.

Quote
If STXI is the type of Trek fans want, far be it from me to say their opinion is wrong. Don't forget your Dramamine ;)


:laugh:

Quote
The beauty of it all is so many folks seem to have investigated historic Trek because of seeing STXI and many of them appear to be enjoying it

As the man said, "Star Trek Is Dead. Long Live Star Trek!"


True, yet Ironic!

Admiral_BlackCat

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Report this Sep. 24 2009, 12:00 am

Quote (trekbuff @ Sep. 23 2009, 2:11 pm)
Quote (Admiral_BlackCat @ Sep. 23 2009, 4:45 pm)
Quote (trekbuff @ Sep. 23 2009, 1:09 pm)
Quote (Admiral_BlackCat @ Sep. 23 2009, 3:56 pm)
Bob Orci is the man!! I love his interviews and his sense of humor.
Nor do I believe Orci is a jackass. His little interview worked for many preexisting fans, right?

Actually, I never needed Orci to explain it for me. The idea that quantum mechanics is at play in THIS timetravel story was easy for me to comprehend and accept. His interview just REAFFIRMED, for me, the rumors and speculations that I was already aware of regarding quantum mechanics and multi-worlds. I mean, basically, as soon as I heard quantum mechanics was involved I said to myself "Makes sense." no convincing required.
So yes, his interview worked for me, but not to convince, just reaffirm.

And not to defend him, but I believe the DVD comment was in response to equally snide remarks for fans.

Well, ABC, if Orci's comments confirmed what you originally thought, read the OP again. Quantum mechanics is truly in my ball park and Orci knows just enough about his "tested" theory of time travel to give me a good laugh. It's sad that so many folks bought into it.

Orci's DVD comment was because of folks complaining STXI was rewriting Trek history. His rather crude comment was they would still have their DVDs. This has been said at least twice in this thread. Orci would make a good used car salesman - maybe.

Like I said, Orci makes sense to me.
You may not agree with what he said or how he said it and that's fine.
Quantum mechanics is right up my alley too, but everything I've learn comes from sci-fi shows like Star Trek and Stargate SG-1. Orci's comments fit right into me idea of timetravel when quantum mechanics are involved because it is very similar to how Stargate SG-1 handled TT. The arrival of the time traveler in the past creates an alternate reality.

In regards to the DVDs and rewriting Trek history, lets not sugar coat the situation. There were plenty of rude and snide remarks from the fans, it went well beyond simply complaining and Orci responded in kind.

lion_tone

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POSTS: 1140

Report this Sep. 24 2009, 12:46 am

I bet that the "last" movie of this current Trek franchise will "dovetail" into "Where No Man Has Gone Before..." The last scene of the last movie will be some dimensional change-over into Kirk and Spock playing chess...

31st_Century_Temporal_Age
nt

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Report this Sep. 24 2009, 2:03 am

Quote (Vice_Adm_Baxter @ Sep. 23 2009, 5:54 pm)
:question: Orci would have us believe it was not the same universe. Then, why destroy that planet Vulcan? Nothing fits the A.U. excuse.


Simply put Nero was so mad at Spock he must have been blinded by his anger not to do this. I might be wrong yet it is the only reasonable explanation.
Well when Nero was interrogating Pike I heard him say his goal was to create a Romulus that exists free of the Federation. It is only them who will truly be saved.

After he dropped Spock off on "Delta Vega" he could have easily headed for Romulan space. After all Vulcan was done for, Hobus star next then, Earth, Quonos would have been a more logical path to follow. I think that's one that went truly over the writers heads.

In the audiobook of Trek 11 there is an attempt at a more plausible explanation for this. Nero believes the time stream has a way of mending itself and the Narada crew nearly mutinies against him. The concept of a self mending time stream is mentioned quite often in the book versions of Trek 11.

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