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Kirk was wrong about Spock

Camorite

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POSTS: 5510

Report this Sep. 21 2009, 7:46 pm

Quote (GHOSTREK @ Sep. 21 2009, 11:05 am)
Quote (Camorite @ Sep. 15 2009, 9:47 pm)
Quote (tribblenator999 @ Sep. 16 2009, 11:23 am)
Quote (Camorite @ Sep. 15 2009, 10:41 pm)
Quote (tribblenator999 @ Sep. 15 2009, 10:06 pm)
Quote (Ali88 @ Sep. 15 2009, 10:21 am)
At the end of Star Trek III, Spock said to Kirk "my father says that you have been my friend, you came back for me" and Kirk says "you would have done the same for me" but Spock didn't

In the new movie, Spock didn't go back for Kirk. Before Spock travelled back to the 23rd century, why didn't he go back in time and prevent Kirk's death on Veridian III in Star Trek Generations.

Kirk sacrificed the enterprise, his son and almost his starfleet career to save Spock's life and that's how Spock repays Kirk- by leaving him dead underneath a pile of rocks on top of a lonely mountain on a lonely unhabitated planet?!!!!!!!!!

If spock knew kirk really died on veridian III he would go back to save Kirk. ?I don't think Spock can stop Kirk from dying on veridian III considering those events never happened. :)

hey tribblenator, i know that you worship kirk and all, but he did die on Veridian III, and nothing that you will say will change that. Sorry.

I know but sucks that spock never knew how kirk really died.

what do you mean by that, Picard would have tried to get a message to him first chance he got. After all nobody, outside of the 1701's Senior staff, knew just how much of a bond those two shared with each other then Sarak (who i will remind you Picard shared minds with), who saw that bond first hand on a number of ocations (most notably when Kirk risked everything to retreive Spocks body in Trek 3).

picrad was not born yet in during the same time has st3

well no duh, i was trying to make a point that after what happened in that movie Sarak would know how much Spock ment to Kirk. Picard would have learned that through the mindmeld he had wtih Sarak.

stovokor2000

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2683

Report this Sep. 23 2009, 12:30 pm

Quote (GHOSTREK @ Sep. 23 2009, 12:20 pm)
Quote (stovokor2000 @ Sep. 20 2009, 2:36 pm)
Quote (GHOSTREK @ Sep. 21 2009, 11:05 am)
Quote (Camorite @ Sep. 15 2009, 9:47 pm)
Quote (tribblenator999 @ Sep. 16 2009, 11:23 am)
Quote (Camorite @ Sep. 15 2009, 10:41 pm)
Quote (tribblenator999 @ Sep. 15 2009, 10:06 pm)
Quote (Ali88 @ Sep. 15 2009, 10:21 am)
At the end of Star Trek III, Spock said to Kirk "my father says that you have been my friend, you came back for me" and Kirk says "you would have done the same for me" but Spock didn't

In the new movie, Spock didn't go back for Kirk. Before Spock travelled back to the 23rd century, why didn't he go back in time and prevent Kirk's death on Veridian III in Star Trek Generations.

Kirk sacrificed the enterprise, his son and almost his starfleet career to save Spock's life and that's how Spock repays Kirk- by leaving him dead underneath a pile of rocks on top of a lonely mountain on a lonely unhabitated planet?!!!!!!!!!

If spock knew kirk really died on veridian III he would go back to save Kirk. ?I don't think Spock can stop Kirk from dying on veridian III considering those events never happened. :)

hey tribblenator, i know that you worship kirk and all, but he did die on Veridian III, and nothing that you will say will change that. Sorry.

I know but sucks that spock never knew how kirk really died.

what do you mean by that, Picard would have tried to get a message to him first chance he got. After all nobody, outside of the 1701's Senior staff, knew just how much of a bond those two shared with each other then Sarak (who i will remind you Picard shared minds with), who saw that bond first hand on a number of ocations (most notably when Kirk risked everything to retreive Spocks body in Trek 3).

picrad was not born yet in during the same time has st3

You seem to have missed the point.

It is said that when 2 people "mind meld" each retains a part of the other.

Picard mind melded with Sarek.....so he would have retained the memories of what Sarek experienced when Spock died.

So he would know all Kirk did for Spock, from the prospective of Sarek.

ok but ¿i always feeling that Sarek never ¿like kirk

Even if....Picard would have understood that as well.

Camorite

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 5510

Report this Sep. 23 2009, 7:44 pm

Quote (GHOSTREK @ Sep. 23 2009, 12:20 pm)
Quote (stovokor2000 @ Sep. 20 2009, 2:36 pm)
Quote (GHOSTREK @ Sep. 21 2009, 11:05 am)
Quote (Camorite @ Sep. 15 2009, 9:47 pm)
Quote (tribblenator999 @ Sep. 16 2009, 11:23 am)
Quote (Camorite @ Sep. 15 2009, 10:41 pm)
Quote (tribblenator999 @ Sep. 15 2009, 10:06 pm)
Quote (Ali88 @ Sep. 15 2009, 10:21 am)
At the end of Star Trek III, Spock said to Kirk "my father says that you have been my friend, you came back for me" and Kirk says "you would have done the same for me" but Spock didn't

In the new movie, Spock didn't go back for Kirk. Before Spock travelled back to the 23rd century, why didn't he go back in time and prevent Kirk's death on Veridian III in Star Trek Generations.

Kirk sacrificed the enterprise, his son and almost his starfleet career to save Spock's life and that's how Spock repays Kirk- by leaving him dead underneath a pile of rocks on top of a lonely mountain on a lonely unhabitated planet?!!!!!!!!!

If spock knew kirk really died on veridian III he would go back to save Kirk. ?I don't think Spock can stop Kirk from dying on veridian III considering those events never happened. :)

hey tribblenator, i know that you worship kirk and all, but he did die on Veridian III, and nothing that you will say will change that. Sorry.

I know but sucks that spock never knew how kirk really died.

what do you mean by that, Picard would have tried to get a message to him first chance he got. After all nobody, outside of the 1701's Senior staff, knew just how much of a bond those two shared with each other then Sarak (who i will remind you Picard shared minds with), who saw that bond first hand on a number of ocations (most notably when Kirk risked everything to retreive Spocks body in Trek 3).

picrad was not born yet in during the same time has st3

You seem to have missed the point.

It is said that when 2 people "mind meld" each retains a part of the other.

Picard mind melded with Sarek.....so he would have retained the memories of what Sarek experienced when Spock died.

So he would know all Kirk did for Spock, from the prospective of Sarek.

ok but ¿i always feeling that Sarek never ¿like kirk

how did you come to that conclution? And if it is based on the attitude that Sarak shows kirk, then that is compleatly off base because, least i remind you, Sarak is a Vulcan, and therefore gives off the same impression to everyone that he meets.

stovokor2000

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POSTS: 2683

Report this Sep. 23 2009, 10:50 pm

Quote (GHOSTREK @ Sep. 23 2009, 1:28 pm)
i don't know ¿ok i just don't know

Tranquillo amigo.

Cptkirkfan18

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POSTS: 706

Report this Sep. 24 2009, 12:17 am

Kirk is alive and well in the 24th century.  They integrated the Shatnerverse into canon.

stovokor2000

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POSTS: 2683

Report this Sep. 24 2009, 1:21 am

Quote (Cptkirkfan18 @ Sep. 24 2009, 12:17 am)
Kirk is alive and well in the 24th century. ¿They integrated the Shatnerverse into canon.

Wishful thinking.

Camorite

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POSTS: 5510

Report this Sep. 24 2009, 9:31 pm

Quote (Cptkirkfan18 @ Sep. 24 2009, 12:17 am)
Kirk is alive and well in the 24th century. ¿They integrated the Shatnerverse into canon.

since when? It is common knowledge that any and all novels are considered non canon. Besides in the first two books of the series Shatner's vision of the Borg goes agianst everything that has been established in canon.

tribblenator999

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Report this Sep. 24 2009, 11:37 pm

Quote (Camorite @ Sep. 24 2009, 9:31 pm)
Quote (Cptkirkfan18 @ Sep. 24 2009, 12:17 am)
Kirk is alive and well in the 24th century. ?They integrated the Shatnerverse into canon.

since when? It is common knowledge that any and all novels are considered non canon. Besides in the first two books of the series Shatner's vision of the Borg goes agianst everything that has been established in canon.

yeah I agree with you camorite. As much as I like the shatner books they are not canon and besides Kirk is written to be so out of character in those books. The only book I consider canon by shatner would probably be starfleet academy.

Moneyspider

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POSTS: 13

Report this Oct. 24 2009, 4:46 pm

I just saw this thread...

The thing I don't understand is...if the Prime Directive suppsedly says that no remains of alien life can be left on a planet, then why was in shown on screen that Picard buried Kirk, knowing full well that Kirk's remains would have to be removed soon?

Why bury a body when you KNOW that they body would have to be removed by Starfleet? Why go to the trouble? Why not just guard the body/remains until Starfleet picked you up, THEN give the body/remains the proper burial when it reached its final destination?

For Picard to bury Kirk on Veridian III, knowing well in advance that the remains would have to be removed soon would be totally illogical on Picard's part.

Also, Picard is not the only Starfleet officer to bury another Starfleet officer on an alien planet. In a way, Kirk left Gary Mitchell's remains on Delta Vega in the TOS episode "Where No Man Has Gone Before". In the TOS episode "The Galileo 7," Spock, McCoy and the others buried two Starfleet officers on the planet they were stranded on after those officers were killed by creatures native to that particular planet.

At no point in time were we told or shown that Starfleet would have to take the Starfleet bodies/remains with them.

And about Picard telling Starfleet about discovering Kirk in the Nexus and having to bury him on Veridian III because that is LIKELY to be in Picard's nature...well, that can be argued, but unless we actually SEE or HEAR Picard telling Starfleet about what he found, there is no evidence that Picard actually told Starfleet.

And besides, just because a person is LIKELY to act a certain way a majority of the time, or 99% of the time, does not automatically GUARANTEE that that is the same way that person will ALWAYS act. Sometimes people act out of character, for whatever reason. Sometimes a person changes his or her mind about how they deal with a specific situation.

Now, there is no proof that Picard didn't tell Starfleet about Kirk...on the other hand, there is no proof that he did, either.

The only thing WE know is that Picard buried Kirk on Veridian III. That's the last thing we saw.

Anything else that happened AFTER that in regards to what happened to Kirk's body can only be open to speculation.

There's no proof that Starfleet removed the body, since it was never shown or referenced in any movie or TV series made after Star Trek Generations. There's also no proof that Picard told anyone about finding Kirk in the Nexus.

Is it possible that Picard told people that he found Kirk in the Nexus? Of course. Is it also possible that he didn't tell people? Of course. If it was never shown or spoken of onscreen, we have no way of knowing what actually happened.

In TOS episode "Metamorphosis," Kirk, Spock and McCoy encountered a very yong Zefram Cochcrane, who had gone to an alien planet to die as an old man but had somehow been made young again by an entity known as The Companion. Kirk, Spock and McCoy were surprised to discover that Cochcrane was still alive. Toward the end of the episode, though, Cochrane asked Kirk to not tell ANYONE that he had been discovered alive, since everyone thought he had passed on a long time before. Kirk said he would keep Cochcrane's secret.

Now, did Kirk actually keep his promise? It's possible. Or did Kirk break his promise and tell people that Cochrane was not only alive, but a young man again? I doubt Kirk did that, but it's possible.

The thing is, we don't know for certain that Kirk kept the secret because nothing further about that episode was ever seen or mentioned onscreen. And saying that it is in Kirk's character to keep a secret or keep his word doesn't always automatically guarantee that Kirk will have to change his behavior fora certain reason.

Speculation can be good, but speculation does not equal facts.

Heck, there's not even proof that Kirk was not somehow resurrected on Veridian III, since it was never shown. Now, I doubt that is was happened, and unfortunately Prime Kirk MAY very well still be dead, but since we never saw what happened to Kirk's body after Picard buried it, we just don't know for certain what happened to it.

Kirk's body COULD have been removed by Starfleet (although it would have been illogical for Picard to bury it in the first place, knowing it would have to be removed soon), OR Kirk's body/remains are still underneath that pile of rocks on Veridian III, OR Kirk's body was repaired/resurrected somehow (as seen in the novel Star Trek: The Return),OR...

The thing is, all we can do at this point is speculate. There is no way to say for certain exactly what happened to Kirk's body after Picard buried and left it, because nothing further has been shown about it or been said about it onscreen, which everyone claims is THE OFFICIAL CANON (which is a concept I don't always agree with).

tribblenator999

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POSTS: 3818

Report this Oct. 24 2009, 5:09 pm

All I know is new Kirk would not die by falling off a bridge. It's shown in the new movie that Kirk is the master on hanging to things. :D

captbates

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Report this Oct. 24 2009, 5:20 pm

Quote (starbase63 @ Sep. 14 2009, 6:28 pm)
*sigh*

Ali, In STXI, Spock had no control over his path backward through time from the 24th century. Plus he crossed over into a new timeline.

:logical:

Lol, is it really so hard to understand.  :O

:laugh:  :laugh:


Nevermind the fact that if he did rescue Kirk the future from that moment on would change, creating some kind of Temporal Paradox or whatever.

tribblenator999

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Report this Oct. 24 2009, 5:54 pm

Quote (captbates @ Oct. 24 2009, 5:20 pm)
Quote (starbase63 @ Sep. 14 2009, 6:28 pm)
*sigh*

Ali, In STXI, Spock had no control over his path backward through time from the 24th century. Plus he crossed over into a new timeline.

:logical:

Lol, is it really so hard to understand. ¿:O

:laugh: ¿:laugh:


Nevermind the fact that if he did rescue Kirk the future from that moment on would change, creating some kind of Temporal Paradox or whatever.

Spock rescuing Kirk from the nexus or before he went into the nexus or before he fell off the bridge? How would that change Star Trek First contact and on?

captbates

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Report this Oct. 25 2009, 6:07 am

Quote (tribblenator999 @ Oct. 23 2009, 10:54 pm)
Quote (captbates @ Oct. 24 2009, 5:20 pm)
Quote (starbase63 @ Sep. 14 2009, 6:28 pm)
*sigh*

Ali, In STXI, Spock had no control over his path backward through time from the 24th century. Plus he crossed over into a new timeline.

:logical:

Lol, is it really so hard to understand. ?:O

:laugh: ?:laugh:


Nevermind the fact that if he did rescue Kirk the future from that moment on would change, creating some kind of Temporal Paradox or whatever.

Spock rescuing Kirk from the nexus or before he went into the nexus or before he fell off the bridge? How would that change Star Trek First contact and on?

How would Spock be able to rescue Kirk from the Nexus? and there was only seconds to spare before the section of the ENT B he was in was exposed to space, and the Ribbon. Not to mention that if Spock did rescue Kirk before he entered the Nexus then Kirk couldn't assist Picard in the future.

There's a big difference between saving someone in the present, as was the case in TSFS, and travelling through time to change history, which Spock would never do, remember Edith Keeler?


Anyway, when did Spock take control of the TARDIS?  :eyesroll:

tribblenator999

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 3818

Report this Oct. 25 2009, 11:13 am

Quote (captbates @ Oct. 25 2009, 6:07 am)
Quote (tribblenator999 @ Oct. 23 2009, 10:54 pm)
Quote (captbates @ Oct. 24 2009, 5:20 pm)
Quote (starbase63 @ Sep. 14 2009, 6:28 pm)
*sigh*

Ali, In STXI, Spock had no control over his path backward through time from the 24th century. Plus he crossed over into a new timeline.

:logical:

Lol, is it really so hard to understand. ?:O

:laugh: ?:laugh:


Nevermind the fact that if he did rescue Kirk the future from that moment on would change, creating some kind of Temporal Paradox or whatever.

Spock rescuing Kirk from the nexus or before he went into the nexus or before he fell off the bridge? How would that change Star Trek First contact and on?

How would Spock be able to rescue Kirk from the Nexus? and there was only seconds to spare before the section of the ENT B he was in was exposed to space, and the Ribbon. Not to mention that if Spock did rescue Kirk before he entered the Nexus then Kirk couldn't assist Picard in the future.

There's a big difference between saving someone in the present, as was the case in TSFS, and travelling through time to change history, which Spock would never do, remember Edith Keeler?


Anyway, when did Spock take control of the TARDIS? ¿:eyesroll:

Forget it Kirk was destined to die on a rocky planet all by himself.

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