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Historical Time Travel. An impossibility

dryson

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POSTS: 749

Report this Sep. 14 2009, 7:34 pm

For those of you that think that we can actually historically time travel you are wrong. Developing a FTL ship is more possible.

If one causility or a person, a person meaning a biological which has the ability to make decision's based upon logic and reason as opposed to particles that do not think or reason but only react to another particle's energetic properties where an equal and opposite reaction based upon this interaction occurs without an outsideartificial force of applied exertion placed upon them, were to decide that they wanted to travel into the past to change something, maybe to stop a war, start of war, win the lottery by gaining knowledge of the numbers in the future then return to the past, ect . They would not be able to.

The reason why is that because during the historical time line that led them upto the point at which they went back in historical time each person they had met would have had a causility placed upon them. This causility would have then affected a certain amount of other people in various ways with other people being affected in various because of the intial causility. These events would have had a direct influence upon the person upto the point at which they went back in historical time. Once the initial causility stepped into the past which would have to have been during their lifetime and not before their life as they would not have existed, any interferance with the historical timeline that they had just returned to from the future would have a buttered fly causility affect introduced into the historical timeline. This means that the causility that they were creating in their past that they were now watching would have their causility introduced into the causility matrix, which would upset the person's initial causility that they had created to get to the point of going into the past from the future to begin with. This would cause the intial causility to change it's path by a margin of .01% which would then cause the causilities attached to it to change as well affecting the time jump point by a margin of .25%. +/- .01%. This disruption in the past causilities historical timeline of getting to the time jump point that the future causility cam from into the past would be erased from ever happening and would cause the initial causility to change it's path that did not take it to the time jump point, thus reverting the historical time travel back to the point of the initial causility where the causility would be in a constant loop feedback of the initial causility never knowing that they had even made the time jump.

The initial causility would not be able to jump back before they were born as it would cause further disruption in the historical time line to the point of the initial causilities parents possibly not even meeting thus causing their propagation of the initial causility to not be born thus in a historical time frame of referance killing ones self by time jumping into the past.

servantx

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POSTS: 33

Report this Sep. 14 2009, 7:45 pm

Hi dryson,

What is your thoughts on these images of current and futuristic aircrafts from helicopters to spacecraft engraved in the Egyptian tomb over 4000 years ago?  Ancient Egyptians like to record history on the tomb/pyramids.


http://www.enterprisemission.com/opentomb.html

Did they, or will they success in military experiments on bending space-time? ¿:logical:

servantx

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 33

Report this Sep. 14 2009, 8:57 pm

Quote (dryson @ Sep. 14 2009, 7:34 pm)
The initial causility would not be able to jump back before they were born as it would cause further disruption in the historical time line to the point of the initial causilities parents possibly not even meeting thus causing their propagation of the initial causility to not be born thus in a historical time frame of referance killing ones self by time jumping into the past.

That is correct, Dryson.

Time travelers who have met their parents in the past before they are born can end up as never been born because their parents didn't met/marrying each other as consequences of their own action during time travel.

Sad stories, isn't it? ¿Classic example in the 80s "Back to the future" movie, or old Spock's appearance in the new Star Trek movie.

What will you do if you are the father of the time-travelers, Dryson? ¿

Let's said in this scenario you are the father, and you ended up with being engaged to another mother. ¿If you break the current engagement and marry the mother of the time traveller instead, so the time traveler child who is fading in your memory will be born, but in the sequence of changing partner of marriage you will kill the other children who are also time travellers in a parallel universe that is emerging to the current timeline as you also start to have memory of their existence as the other children's universe becoming reality.

Like the photograph Martin was holding on stage in "Back to the future" movie, some are gone.

Which mother will you choose? ¿In either way you will kill off the time-travel child of the other mother whose children will never be born.

Let's say in this scenario, you can only choose one future.

Please tell me what is your thought about this...

GrandLunar2007

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POSTS: 1092

Report this Sep. 14 2009, 9:55 pm

There may be a way around this; when one goes back and alters the past, that person now creates a new time stream. An alternate reality, as it were.

The time traveller is trapped in the new time stream, while the original time stream goes unchanged.

This isn't my idea, BTW. A scientist at work on experimental time travel came up with this idea.

4_of_20

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POSTS: 1052

Report this Sep. 15 2009, 2:40 am

Fennman's sum over multiple histories would choose the alternate reality consequence if you somehow killed your grandfather or something ridiculous like that.

Most time machine models can't travel back any further than the point when the time machine was invented, however. Take Kip Thorne's time machine for instance. Make a wormhole, stabilize it with a bit of negative energy, put one on Earth and one in a spaceship.
Now through some miracle of modern achievement accelerate that spaceship up some some ridiculous speed like 0.999999999c in a manor of seconds and set it for a round trip of the galaxy.  
Here's the beautiful part. The two mouths of the wormhole keep the same time as each other, even though the spaceship is traveling close to c and time is slowing down considerably for it.
Now 300,000 years later our ship comes back to Earth. It's been fifteen minutes on board, and once the Earth people of 302,009AD widen the gap of the wormhole, people can gladly pass through, either way, and travel between moments after the launch of the first time machine, and a distant futuristic Earth. Amazing.
But no travel into one's own past, or further back past the point of inventing the time machine. Like Bill and Ted, time is always ticking back home in the time you're from.

Now back to the topic, FTL more possible than visiting history before time travel. If you've read nearly anyone of my threads you'll know I'm a fan of the Alcubierre drive and later works of Obousy-Cleaver. And these FTL methods do not provoke travel into one's path, although due to special relativity, from some frames it may appear to move backwards in time.

Even the Kip Thorne time machine can be used as an FTL device. The ship does not necessarily need to come back to Earth. It could go to Andromeda and establish a stargate there. Or it could just keep going. Jump in your spacesuit, hop in the wormhole, and find yourself floating in space in some random point of the universe! Awesome!

So, in odd agreeance with dryson, I personally too do feel that traveling at FTL speeds is a more realistic possibility than visiting ones own past or traveling into the history of mankind.

dryson

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POSTS: 749

Report this Sep. 15 2009, 3:16 pm

Quote
There may be a way around this; when one goes back and alters the past, that person now creates a new time stream. An alternate reality, as it were.

The time traveller is trapped in the new time stream, while the original time stream goes unchanged.

This isn't my idea, BTW. A scientist at work on experimental time travel came up with this idea.


Not possible, in the old time stream in which the causility (the human) made the movements along the time line that were involved in her/his making the decision to create a time machine and time jump back into the past will have affected the past's time event thus causing that past of the same person to be diverted away from the original time line that led to the decision to create the time jump in the first place.

This can be seen by watching ST:Generations. If you will remember during the first missile launch to divert the Nexus ribbon from to where Dr. Sarun was located by destroying the sun, everything except was destroyed even the planet that the Enterprise D had crash landed on.  This left Picard in the causility of the Nexus itself and had it not been for Guinann who showed up and explained to him what had happened then he would have been trapped in the Nexus forever not realizing that he was actually living out various dreams that had not occured as well as reliving the stored memories of historical events in his life before the point of Nexus contact that had occurred. Then Picard sought out Kirk, who said that he had felt like he had just arrived but it had been over 80 years since the Nexus Ribbon had struck the Enterprise B taking Kirk with it where everyone assumed that he had been killed. The two then went back to the point at which Dr. Sarun was beginning to launch his missile but was unaware of the event because he had been left in the Nexus Ribbon as a different causility. Kirk and Picard then averted the launch, killing Dr. Sarun in the real world as well as his residual causility in the Nexus, thus saving the Enterprise and the rest of the system. The point that is being made here is that if you were to jump through time that you may appear to have changed the future but you will only have shifted to another time line altogether, if you would attempt to met yourself at any point in the original time line where you were attempting to engage in the activity of creating the time jump at the exact point at which both causilities, the one from time line A and the other causility that made the time jump or causility B saw each other and it registered to causility A that you had actually made the jump back in time that time line would have been changed by .25% or however long it took causility A to realize that it had just itself in the future that it had not jumped through into yet. When causility A and B meet in this manner, their meeting would cause a causility wave across time that would result in either a minor change in the original causilities time line that could impede the actual jumping into time to begin with or it may have a severe affect where the presence of causality B would cause causility A to abort the time jump thus killing causility B in time and rendering the past's future completely different then what causility A's timeline had intended. The results would be random and based off of the chemical stimuli of the emotions of causility A when met by B. Even if the time jump went foward the same result would continue over and over again without any real change occuring based off of the initial reason to why causility A decided to time jump in the first place.

dryson

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POSTS: 749

Report this Sep. 15 2009, 3:27 pm

One point of interest and question from Generations is this, if Guinnan from the Enterprise B had never met Picard or talked of the Nexus then how did her residual causility in the Nexus pull Picard out of the dream induced world that he had created for hisself prior to being taken by the Nexus? Guinnan would not have known about Picard while on the Lacule transport ship so her residual causility would not have been able to contact Picard when he was in the Nexus. Did Guinann somehow beam herself to the planet along with Picard as a way to make sure Picard found his way back out of the Nexus?

Also was the world that Picard created via the Nexus his way of creating an image of soothing his mind before being taken by the Nexus? Maybe as prelude to his possibly thinking that he might end up being killed and the world that he created was actually the life that made him the happiest?  A family children a wife ect or was it the Nexus itself drawing the memories stored in Picards mind to create the world that Picard was part of in the Nexus?

Also if each person in the Nexus could controll their own thoughts and make them real, how could Picard appear in Kirk's dream world without the two causilities colliding and destroying the ribbon itself thus killing everyone that was stored in the Nexus?

GrandLunar2007

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POSTS: 1092

Report this Sep. 15 2009, 8:51 pm

ST:Generations was a movie, not a real life senerio on which to base speculation on time travel.
What happened in it was at the mercy of the writers.

4_of_20

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POSTS: 1052

Report this Sep. 18 2009, 6:10 pm

I'm so disapointed with you dryson. You start a topic, I comment, put a lot of time and effort into my post, agree with you slightly for once, and what do you do? Ignore it and start posting more childish bull#### based on a movie you saw.

Go ask these questions in the movie thread, and if you want to have meaningful conversations in here, learn some background and stop dismissing people when they put down there thoughts (which I may add, are based on REAL science).

lanceromega

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POSTS: 3859

Report this Oct. 07 2009, 4:21 pm

Quote (servantx @ Sep. 13 2009, 8:45 pm)
Hi dryson,

What is your thoughts on these images of current and futuristic aircrafts from helicopters to spacecraft engraved in the Egyptian tomb over 4000 years ago? ?Ancient Egyptians like to record history on the tomb/pyramids.


http://www.enterprisemission.com/opentomb.html

Did they, or will they success in military experiments on bending space-time? ?:logical:

maybe they already have? there are a host of OOPART, out of place artifacts that exist. Iron nails found in 200 million year old coal beds



spark plug found in Geod that would have form million of years ago.

even the baigong pipes, a series of iron pipes found embedded in a mountain in chinese. the pipes would have be older than the jurassic sandstone of the mountain itself


This could be direct evident of time travel into the distant past

lanceromega

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POSTS: 3859

Report this Oct. 07 2009, 10:55 pm

here the pictures of spark plug found in a million year old Geom..






fact is that in the 1920 Charles Fort wrote a book called OOPART listing report of 100's of such items, ranging from iron kettles found in coal seams to written accounts of airships ( in 1800's) that were spotted that seem far more advance than the simple balloons and lighter than air, crafts of their times.

Many of these items, like the Baghdad battery basically are stored in the basements of museums around the world, ignore because they just donot make sense.

Time travel would seem to be a logical answer, whether this is effort of intelligent agent or just some kink in the nature of  space time.

blankenship

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Report this Oct. 08 2009, 7:53 pm

Quote (GrandLunar2007 @ Sep. 13 2009, 10:55 pm)
There may be a way around this; when one goes back and alters the past, that person now creates a new time stream. An alternate reality, as it were.

The time traveller is trapped in the new time stream, while the original time stream goes unchanged.

This isn't my idea, BTW. A scientist at work on experimental time travel came up with this idea.

So you can only change your own past and present?

blankenship

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1632

Report this Oct. 08 2009, 8:05 pm

Quote (lanceromega @ Oct. 06 2009, 11:55 pm)
here the pictures of spark plug found in a million year old Geom..






fact is that in the 1920 Charles Fort wrote a book called OOPART listing report of 100's of such items, ranging from iron kettles found in coal seams to written accounts of airships ( in 1800's) that were spotted that seem far more advance than the simple balloons and lighter than air, crafts of their times.

Many of these items, like the Baghdad battery basically are stored in the basements of museums around the world, ignore because they just donot make sense.

Time travel would seem to be a logical answer, whether this is effort of intelligent agent or just some kink in the nature of ¿space time.

Ok so time travelers took spark plugs and iron pots and

batteries made of crockery into the past?

How in the hell does an iron pot last for millions of years in a

swamp that eventually turned into coal?

I love the qualifier "could be a kink in the nature of space time"

GrandLunar2007

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1092

Report this Oct. 09 2009, 8:52 am

Quote (blankenship @ Oct. 08 2009, 7:53 pm)
Quote (GrandLunar2007 @ Sep. 13 2009, 10:55 pm)
There may be a way around this; when one goes back and alters the past, that person now creates a new time stream. An alternate reality, as it were.

The time traveller is trapped in the new time stream, while the original time stream goes unchanged.

This isn't my idea, BTW. A scientist at work on experimental time travel came up with this idea.

So you can only change your own past and present?

Not sure if that's the right description.


Like I said, it's not my idea.

lanceromega

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POSTS: 3859

Report this Oct. 09 2009, 10:11 am

Quote (blankenship @ Oct. 07 2009, 9:05 pm)
Quote (lanceromega @ Oct. 06 2009, 11:55 pm)
here the pictures of spark plug found in a million year old Geom..






fact is that in the 1920 Charles Fort wrote a book called OOPART listing report of 100's of such items, ranging from iron kettles found in coal seams to written accounts of airships ( in 1800's) that were spotted that seem far more advance than the simple balloons and lighter than air, crafts of their times.

Many of these items, like the Baghdad battery basically are stored in the basements of museums around the world, ignore because they just donot make sense.

Time travel would seem to be a logical answer, whether this is effort of intelligent agent or just some kink in the nature of ?space time.

Ok so time travelers took spark plugs and iron pots and

batteries made of crockery into the past?

How in the hell does an iron pot last for millions of years in a

swamp that eventually turned into coal?

I love the qualifier "could be a kink in the nature of space time"



First the batteries didnot come from time traveller, but it show how items that could not be id are simply hidden away till someone decide to look at them.

Why wouldn't an iron pot survive buried in a bog, it a low oxygen enivorment, and many well preserved item are constantly be found by scientist.

The strange things is that many of the items found in coal would indicate that they were around before the beds themselve form. Nails and pots are fairly low tech items while the item that could be a spark plug still show a level technology beneath one we would suspect of being capable of time travel.

Well the fact that such items have been found in the most unusual places, means the universe is a very odd place.

I like the kinks in time space explaination my self, it would explain why i'm always missing one sock out of the pair when i do laundry. Or why i keep losing my keys.

Image one day some one will pop open a chunck of coal and there will be all my missing socks... :)

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