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What is your opinion regarding slash?

ZarabethS179

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Report this Sep. 15 2009, 4:25 pm

LOL, MS! I've never seen that one!

MrsStarbuck

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Report this Sep. 15 2009, 5:49 pm

MS, I LOVE that picture!

Vice_Adm_Baxter

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Report this Sep. 15 2009, 6:24 pm

Quote (MarmaladeSkies @ Sep. 15 2009, 1:08 pm)
Quote (MarmaladeSkies @ Sep. 13 2009, 8:24 pm)
Dammit, I had an amusing Spock/McCoy pic but I can't seem to find it anywhere. I could have SWORN I had it lying around on Photobucket.......

Grrrrrrr..... ?:angry: ?:(

AHA....found it, finally:



Sorry this is a million years late. ¿:p

:O  :laugh:  :laugh:

Ali88

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Report this Sep. 15 2009, 7:25 pm

Now I know this is a bit of a stupid question but is there any Spock and McCoy slash fiction?

I know McCoy did have issues with Spock and found Spock's cold and emoitionless attitude fraustrating but I think the two were good friends and I think the two meant a lot to each other

McCoy sometimes behaved like he hated Spock but I think deep down McCoy really really loved Spock

I really do believe Spock and McCoy loved each other

ZarabethS179

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Report this Sep. 15 2009, 9:51 pm

Yes, there is S/Mc slash out there, though not nearly as prevalent as K/S. S/Mc is particularly scarce in vintage print fanzines (whereas K/S is virtually unavoidable in this medium).

If you are interested, I believe a group known as the McCoyotes does a lot of fic of this nature.

Mirrorgirl

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Report this Sep. 15 2009, 9:52 pm

Gosh there have been so many points made in the last day for me to rebutt that I don't even know where to start. And in fact I spent most of yesterday at my mind-numbing job (it's a good thing, allows me time to think deeply about many things), thinking about ALL the implications of this discussion.

Firstly let me say that I grew up in a household where my parents LIVED IDIC. Our home, our business and our family where open to everyone. Both my parents lived total acceptance of everyone regardless of race, creed, colour or sexual orientation - no wonder Star Trek fit into our lives. The philosophy of Star Trek was and was always intended as TOTAL ACCEPTANCE of and respect for every being (the Horta, the Gorn etc, etc). I grew up being hyper-aware of people's hidden prejudices.

There is an acronym - NIMBY - Not In MY Back Yard, which applies in this instance. So often in arguments about slash we get to the point where someone says either "I have lots of Gay friends' or "Yes, it IS possible that Kirk and Spock could be Gay, but they are not". That's right, folks are prepared to admit that homosexuality exists and it's alright to be Gay, but NOT IN MY FRANCHISE!!! Heaven forbid that the heroes of millions of men (and women) might be in love with each other and might take that love to it's logical conclusion. To me it is the height of the Star Trek philosophy that the primary love relationship is between two men. It is not that slashers are incapable of understanding that two men can have a deep love that is not expressed physically, it is that most people have the hidden prejudice that it is not okay that they do.

In this argument we also always reach a point where slashers and those opposed to slash want to start going through scene by scene discussing the merits or otherwise of a particular interpretation of script or action. If there were only a few scenes where this was necessary, eventually it would come down to who believes what interpretation - HOWEVER the mere fact that there are at LEAST 100 scenes and/or lines of dialogue that need this sort of close examination should be a giveaway. Millions, yes MILLIONS of words have been written about the slash moments seen ON THE SCREEN; if it were just a few moments it would be logical to assume that it is probably just in the eye of the beholder, but the weight of evidence comes down on the side of the slash interpretation, because put all together and in context there is just SO MUCH of it.

In this argument, we always reach the point where someone says: "Well you are LOOKING for it, so you will find it". There is a phenomenon we are all familiar with. If I, for example purchase a Blue Toyota Pick-up truck, I will suddenly start seeing lots of Blue Toyota Pick-up trucks; there are no more or less Blue Toyota Pick-up trucks than before I started noticing them, I have simply started to SEE them. The same is true for Kirk/Spock slash. Yes indeed I can SEE it because I am looking for it, but there is no more or less of it because I have started to notice it. Perhaps the reason most folk don't see slash is because they are NOT looking for it. If you open your eyes you will see and hear the hundreds of instances of their relationship being above and beyond 'just best friends' (particularly Spock's possessiveness of Kirk).

Finally I would like to say that I am not really concerned with whether someone LIKES slash or not, each to their own, but when my ability to see and understand something that is my special subject is brought into question and the arguments used to do that are clearly bigoted and un-informed, I feel an overwhelming desire to make my point. I had a very wise uncle who said to me on a number of occasions "Di, I never enter into an argument unless I am sure of my facts." I have always tried to live my life by this very powerful axiom. I do not open my mouth unless I know what I am talking about. Star Trek is the richest of subjects, that could literally be taught at University level and each of us have our special areas of expertise. I would never presume to lecture Bax about anything to do with the design of The Enterprise, because I have not enough knowledge or experience to even attempt to argue any point with him. I would instead ASK him what he knows on a particular question.

Kirk/Spock is my special subject. I could if I wished write a book on the subject. I have certainly read more on the subject than anyone else on these boards, both K/S writings as well as critical analysis of the subject by yes, shock horror both MALE and female writers. If the people who wish to argue the point with me on this subject were prepared to study the subject with objectivity, not just opinion I would be happy to argue at length, but as it is I am encountering only OPINION, not facts or critical anaylsis.

I put out a challenge to anyone who, in the interest of balance, wishes to really discuss this subject - read ALL of Laura Goodwin, read Brittany Diamond (both of whom have written thorough scene by scene, episode by episode analysis of Kirk/Spock in TOS and the movies); read 'Textual Poachers' by Henry Jenkins (gasp! a man who is not afraid to look at the subject) and then come back and discuss this subject with me. (And by the way Starbase, Laura Goodwin started writing about Kirk/Spock as parody and was eventually overwhelmed by the sheer scale of the source material that she not only became an adovate of Kirk/Spock, she became the pre-eminant writer in the field of Kirk/Spock analysis - I guess she took the time to look at the subject critically rather than dismissing it as IMPOSSIBLE because her heroes couldn't possibly be gay...LOL).

Finally I will leave this thread with the following scene from 'Metamorposis' where Kirk, Spock and McCoy make it abundantly clear that LOVE is LOVE regardless of what form it takes; Star Trek canon and my philosophy.

COCHRANE: Captain, why did you build that translator with a feminine voice?
KIRK: We didn't.
COCHRANE: But I heard
KIRK: The idea of male and female are universal constants, Cochrane. There's no doubt about it. The Companion is female.
COCHRANE: I don't understand.
MCCOY: You don't? A blind man could see it with a cane. You're not a pet. You're not a specimen kept in a cage. You're a lover.
COCHRANE: I'm a what?
SPOCK: Her attitude when she approaches you is profoundly different than when she contacts us. Her appearance is soft, gentle. Her voice is melodic, pleasing. I do not totally understand the emotion, but it obviously exists. The Companion loves you.
COCHRANE: Do you know what you're saying? For all these years, I've let something as alien as that crawl around inside me, into my mind, my feelings.
KIRK: What are you complaining about? It kept you alive.
COCHRANE: That thing fed on me. It used me. It's disgusting.
MCCOY: There's nothing disgusting about it. It's just another life form, that's all. You get used to those things.
COCHRANE: You're as bad as it is.
SPOCK: Your highly emotional reaction is most illogical. Your relationship with the Companion has for one hundred and fifty years been emotionally satisfying, eminently practical, and totally harmless. It may indeed have been quite beneficial.
COCHRANE: Is this what the future holds? Men who have no notion of decency or morality? Maybe I'm a hundred and fifty years out of style, but I'm not going to be fodder for any inhuman monster. (leaves)
SPOCK: Fascinating. A totally parochial attitude.

ZarabethS179

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Report this Sep. 15 2009, 10:29 pm

MG, I think a book analyzing slash vs. non-slash interpretations would make an interesting read.

Mirrorgirl

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Report this Sep. 15 2009, 10:39 pm

That's true and if I could pin my 19 year old son down to that I would - he is decidedly on the non-slash side of the equation. My 17 year old son on the other hand is very decidedly on the slash side of the equation. I might add that both my sons are heterosexual. I know this because in our household sex is not taboo, sexuality is a subject for discussion and acceptance of others sexual orientation is a way of life. :D

#2 son and I discussed my above post in some detail this morning. I mentioned that I was going to discuss the fact that there are just so many moments to discuss...his response was that he only had to see the one instance and he was convinced. What was that scene - the Back Rub scene from 'Shore Leave'. I'd like to hear a logical explanation of that scene that doesn't include slash...LOL. If a 17 year old straight male can see it, then others might be able to as well, if they remove their 'it can't possibly be' goggles.

lion_tone

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Report this Sep. 16 2009, 1:03 am

In a way, I kinda think the scene you pasted doesn't help your argument. While the idea IS love, Kirk also states Male/Female as a universal constant, and surmises that the Companion is female because it loves Cochrane.

It seems to be more of an abstraction on Male/Female energy and universal attraction as it pertains to dissimilar species (or perhaps race, economic class, and religion in our world) more so than solidifying a Kirk/Spock affair.

One could even say that Kirk's decidedly un-scientific presumption that the Companion was Female merely because it loved Cochrane and "sounded" female enforces the idea that sexuality in Star Trek sees Male/Female as the norm.

lion_tone

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Report this Sep. 16 2009, 1:13 am

Also, if someone wants to submit script lines, or scenes from TOS promoting a Kirk/Spock relationship, I'm all for it. It should not include biased "analysis" by someone with an agenda. If there was a Kirk/Spock affair it should be easy to see, no? It certainly required no analysis when Kirk was with a woman. So why Spock?

Was Kirk's mind meld with Sarek in TSFS a fling?

I'm not putting this whole thing down. It just does not hold a lot of water. I've seen every episode, and every movie at least 20 times - since the age of 7. I've got many gay friends (who need to stop hitting on me!!! )...and I just...don't...see...it...onscreen.

Sorry:)

lion_tone

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Report this Sep. 16 2009, 1:41 am

Here's a Laura Goodwin snippet talking about the post-fight scene in "Amok Time." A good example of her thought process and how she seems to write:

"After the fight, instead of claiming his bride, Spock oddly became calm and decided to forget about T'Pring and return to the ship without assuaging his mating drive. He joyfully embraced Jim at the end (which Jim apparently liked). Then the two ran off together. This was the happy ending! This, among other things, led some people to conclude that Spock and Kirk might be Gay lovers."

Ok...Where do I start? Is this objective writing?

Spock was bound by ritual to fight the chosen "champion," who was Kirk. Spock did not "forget" about T'Pring, he just didn't want to mate and be bound to her while she had chosen another Vulcan mate, and lose his lands. (Which Spock himself stated...)

Spock was devastated that he *killed* his best friend. Vulcan or not, it HAS to sting. (Spock also mentions this.)

If someone *killed* their best friend and was in the depth of depression, only to find out their friend is not only alive but quite well, does that not explain Spock's emotional outburst?? (This does not require a rocket scientist)

Kirk and Spock hustling away to "mind the store" lead people to believe they were gay? (This is just stupid).

This does not seem objective at all. I disputed everything she said using established plot points. In fact, some of the things she wrote omitted crucial plot points in order to back up her claim of possible homosexuality. To dispute Goodwin on every scene would be laborious, and kind of a waste of time. However, if the rest of her writing is similar to what she presented here, it would seem more tedious than difficult.

MrsStarbuck

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Report this Sep. 16 2009, 5:44 am

There are some well thought out and intelligent arguments on both sides in this thread, and it's made for an interesting read.

However, I feel I have to try and refute this point:

Quote (Cynic321 @ Sep. 14 2009, 7:56 am)

It's taking deep and complex relationships with many multiple layers & insisting on cheapening (yes I said 'cheapening' ) them by insisting on adding a purely sexual component.


In my opinion, it does a great disservice to the incredibly talented writers in this genre to accuse them of doing anything to 'cheapen' the relationship between Kirk and Spock. In the best of the K/S stories that I've read it is NEVER a purely 'sexual component' that is added. We're not talking gratuitous p0rn here...in most cases the physical side of the K/S relationship is simply a natural extension of the depth of their feelings for each other in every other area (mentally, spiritually etc)

There seems to be a stereotype (not necessarily expressed here particuarly) that slash writers are predominantly sad, sexually repressed, middle aged housewives who get a kick out of creating smut between two hot guys. In my experience NOTHING could be farther from the truth.
In most of my favourite K/S stories, the sex element accounts for probably 1 - 2 percent of the entire story, with the rest being made up of action, intrigue, drama, emotion...all the things that a fantastic story needs. In fact, some K/S stories don't actually feature sex at all, but they're still wonderful to read.

Quote (Mirrorgirl @ Sep. 15 2009, 3:52 am)
In this argument, we always reach the point where someone says: "Well you are LOOKING for it, so you will find it". There is a phenomenon we are all familiar with. If I, for example purchase a Blue Toyota Pick-up truck, I will suddenly start seeing lots of Blue Toyota Pick-up trucks; there are no more or less Blue Toyota Pick-up trucks than before I started noticing them, I have simply started to SEE them. The same is true for Kirk/Spock slash. Yes indeed I can SEE it because I am looking for it, but there is no more or less of it because I have started to notice it. Perhaps the reason most folk don't see slash is because they are NOT looking for it. If you open your eyes you will see and hear the hundreds of instances of their relationship being above and beyond 'just best friends' (particularly Spock's possessiveness of Kirk).


I'm not sure where I lie personally on the 'is it canon' debate. I haven't been part of this franchise for long enough, and don't know enough about it, to make an informed decision.
But like I said earlier, what I love about it is that, IMO, any references to deeper feelings between Kirk and Spock made in the series are so subtle and nuanced that it is up to the individual viewer what they take from it.
All the greatest works of art leave a lot of room for personal interpretation, and Star Trek is no different.

Does that mean that one viewpoint is 'wrong' and another is 'right'? Absolutely not. We all take whatever we want from it, and as long as it works for us as individuals then it is 'right' for us.

I haven't yet read any of the 'official' Star Trek novels, but they are not considered canon either. That doesn't stop them from being wonderfully written and completely engrossing pieces of literature. I'm sure someone wouldn't just dismiss a Trek book written by, say, William Shatner simply because it's not considered official canon, so why not extend the same consideration to the slash genre?

If you don't like the idea, then by all means don't read it. But to rubbish it out of hand (and I'm not saying that anyone here has particuarly done that) does a great disservice to works that talented writers have poured their very hearts and souls into.

lion_tone

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Report this Sep. 16 2009, 1:51 pm

Quote (MrsStarbuck @ Sep. 16 2009, 5:44 am)
If you don't like the idea, then by all means don't read it. But to rubbish it out of hand (and I'm not saying that anyone here has particuarly done that) does a great disservice to works that talented writers have poured their very hearts and souls into.

In all fairness, this topic wasn't being discussed until there was an open question on the forum.

If people want to think the Kirk and Spock are gay, that's fine. I really have no problem with it at all. Where I do have to voice an opinion is where *evidence* is presented that does not seem like evidence at all. Let's read more of Laura Goodwin:

"Kirk and Spock don't act like they are hiding their relationship from their comrades. They are discreet, that is all. Still, the very deep intimacy they share and great fond regard they have for each other couldn't be plainer, and it certainly is beyond what ordinary good friends enjoy. It's also fairly plain that their closest friends and comrades know what's going on, and accept it."

This is complete fallacy. There as absolutely no on-film evidence to support this claim. It does not fall under anything but pure opinion. If one mixes "evidence* and opinion so freely, their critical thinking and writing skills must be suspect. Here's more:

"The indisputable truth is this: Kirk and Spock's relationship with each other is their primary relationship. It goes on for decades and withstands all manner of crushing trials. Even death doesn't keep them apart. That's verifiable canon. Nobody can convincingly deny that. That Kirk and Spock love each other more than they love anybody else is utterly obvious. That is not imaginary, nor accidental. That was intentionally placed in the show by the show's creators, and it was in fact spotlighted in nearly every TOS story, and in the movies, too."

This is true, but only 2/3 true. To push her agenda, Goodwin has left out Dr. McCoy. It WASN'T just Kirk and Spock. It was Kirk, Spock, AND McCoy. McCoy was with Kirk when they rescued Spock, McCoy was at the camp fire "family" scenes (which had Kirk and Spock in separate sleeping arrangements). McCoy held Spock's soul. This is distortion through omission.

So was it a threesome?

MrsStarbuck

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Report this Sep. 16 2009, 2:10 pm

Quote (lion_tone @ Sep. 15 2009, 7:51 pm)
In all fairness, this topic wasn't being discussed until there was an open question on the forum.

If people want to think the Kirk and Spock are gay, that's fine. I really have no problem with it at all.

Oh, I realise that, and I wasn't having a go at anyone here, which is why I said "and I'm not saying that anyone here has particuarly done that"...

I guess I was just talking in the broader sense, that some people like to look down on slash as inferior to other genres of writing.

ZarabethS179

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Report this Sep. 16 2009, 3:19 pm

Are slash opponents against all non-canon ships? For instance, I don't hear many complaints regarding McCoy/Chapel or Kirk/Uhura fics. What is it about slash in particular that makes it different from any other non-canon pairing?

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