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What is your opinion regarding slash?

lion_tone

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Report this Sep. 14 2009, 4:37 pm

It's kinda like saying that Scotty was into beastiality because he was seen being kind to animals...:P

love_those_spacemen

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Report this Sep. 14 2009, 4:43 pm

Quote (lion_tone @ Sep. 14 2009, 1:37 pm)
It's kinda like saying that Scotty was into beastiality because he was seen being kind to animals...:P

Uh, no. Not a comparable juxtaposition at all. But real classy.

love_those_spacemen

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Report this Sep. 14 2009, 4:49 pm

Quote (starbase63 @ Sep. 14 2009, 1:39 pm)
And are they comparing to observations they might make of a female friendship...or a male one?

Women walk down streets holding hands or arm in arm, gay or straight. Women share dressing rooms in stores. Women might even sleep all over each other at sleepovers.

Not exactly "man" things.

I think it's the gender perspective.

God, I'm having a hard time with this while trying not to be seen as a chavanist jerk...

It's not possible for me to invision because I don't see any basis of it. Kirk is not gay. Spock is not gay.

:logical:

:laugh: No... not at all, SB. That's an interesting theory. But is it solely due to societal boundaries, especially in this country and at this time? Men have been known to do "woman" things without fear of being labeled gay, especially in other countries.

Heck, they smack each other on the bum and wrestle don't they? Ah, but that's safely away from the perceived "affection" zone.

Not gay to you. :p

lion_tone

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Report this Sep. 14 2009, 8:50 pm

Quote (love_those_spacemen @ Sep. 14 2009, 4:43 pm)
Quote (lion_tone @ Sep. 14 2009, 1:37 pm)
It's kinda like saying that Scotty was into beastiality because he was seen being kind to animals...:P

Uh, no. Not a comparable juxtaposition at all. But real classy.

It's a joke...

lion_tone

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POSTS: 1140

Report this Sep. 14 2009, 8:52 pm

Quote (love_those_spacemen @ Sep. 14 2009, 4:49 pm)
Heck, they smack each other on the bum and wrestle don't they? Ah, but that's safely away from the perceived "affection" zone.

Not gay to you. :p

I think that's a hidden signal to duck the next clothsline, and initiate a rolling bodyslam...

but I could be wrong:)

Mirrorgirl

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Report this Sep. 14 2009, 8:55 pm

Quote (starbase63 @ Sep. 15 2009, 5:48 am)
I mean come on, James Kirk was the archetypical 60's tv leading man...strong, solid, a hit with the ladies, fiercely heterosexual...is someone going to try to tell me Kirk was in denial or overcompensating?

What logic would Spock find in such a relationship?

:logical:

Okay, it can be shown from canon, that Kirk was NOT a womaniser, and from the 79 episodes he only actually 'beds' three women - Deela, he had no choice in the matter, it was hump or die (from Shatner's acting JTK seemed particularly disturbed by the incident; Druscilla, JTK was in captivity (it could be argued that he was doing her a favour as she may have been punished if she did not seduce him - although I will admit that JTK seemed to enjoy himself here) and Miramanee, JTK had amnesia, although his love for did seem very genuine.

Eith the exxception of Edith Keeler, every other incident of JTK being witha woman, he has alterior motives (alot of them are enemies he is trying to trick, many are androids).

Check dommoz's reviews of TOS. Here is a man who come to us from the Star Wars world, who has no preconceived ideas about Kirk and he has commented on a number of occasions that he has yet to see the 'womaniser Kirk' even after 23 or 24 episodes.

As LTS says and I concur, many very virile, sporty and heroic males are bi-sexual or homosexual.

Now as to the logic Spock might find in a relationship with JTK, I shall quote from the most insightful of commentators on the K/Ssubject, Laura Goodwin (who by the way started to write about K/S as parody, because she also thought it was ridiculous, until she actually started watching and cataloguing the TOS eps in detail and she BECAME convinced of the validity, even veracity of Kirk/Spock, by pure observation).

From Laura Goodwin:

Some people have asserted that Spock can't be Gay because he is celibate, as if it would be illogical for Spock to have sex with *anyone*, but I disagree. Obviously, he would have a lot of perfectly logical reasons to want to have sex, that include _to father children_. That's not the only logical reason he might want to "do it". There are plenty of other logical reasons why he might want to, including:

1) Promotes social bonding.
2) For the experience of pleasure.
3) Relief from sexual tension.
4) As a soporific (helps you to sleep).
5) Health. Keeps the plumbin' workin'!

Heck, here's 14 logical reasons why Spock would like to have sex with Kirk:

1) Kirk has got what it takes. Spock is an ass man, and Kirk does have a cute butt.

2) Kirk loves Spock. It's logical to do it with someone who has positive feelings for you.

3) Kirk and Spock have a lot in common. It's logical to mate with someone who can share much with you.

4) Kirk is trustworthy. It's logical to choose a partner you can trust.

5) Kirk likes sex. It's logical to prefer a sex partner who's positive about sex.

6) Kirk is vigorously healthy. He could take anything the Vulcan could dish out, even if they are playing rough (which he actually would probably prefer).

7) All those adoring women can't be wrong! [Wait, maybe they *are* wrong! Not about whether he's adorable, just about whether he welcomes their adoration.]

8) Kirk is convenient. The guy is always right there. If you gotta go right now, who better to go with than someone who is readily available?

9) Kirk is his Captain, and on his way up the ladder. If Spock makes his Cappy happy, this could help his career!

10) Kirk sure as hell isn't getting pregnant! Let's face it, neither Kirk nor Spock want kids, so it's illogical for them to mess with women!

11) Kirk is a fun guy! Guy's a hoot and a half!

12) Aesthetically, Kirk is a good choice. Kirk is prettier than any of the women.

13) Plus, it feels good, and...

14) It keeps their plumbin' workin'  

So it's entirely logical to have sex with Jim Kirk (just because you personally don't find him attractive, believe me others do).

And finall to the belief that all K/S is written by and for people with an inability to understand that men can be close to each other without, well this is just a ridiculous assertion. I know that men can be close without being physically intimate - like OF COURSE!!! But in the case of Kirk and Spock this may not be the case and going on the visual and scripted evidence the weight of evidence falls on the side of yes, they are lovers.

It is folks who can wish to DENY that it IS possible who have the limited view, not vice versa.

Finally here is an artcile by Laura Goodwin that explains alot, if one is interested.

Kinky K/S and Occam's Razor

I wish I could write as clearly and succinctly as this woman.

love_those_spacemen

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Report this Sep. 14 2009, 11:14 pm

Quote (lion_tone @ Sep. 14 2009, 5:50 pm)
Quote (love_those_spacemen @ Sep. 14 2009, 4:43 pm)
Quote (lion_tone @ Sep. 14 2009, 1:37 pm)
It's kinda like saying that Scotty was into beastiality because he was seen being kind to animals...:P

Uh, no. Not a comparable juxtaposition at all. But real classy.

It's a joke...

It was Howard Sterny... :sarcastic: :D

Vice_Adm_Baxter

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Report this Sep. 14 2009, 11:18 pm

Quote (love_those_spacemen @ Sep. 14 2009, 8:14 pm)
Quote (lion_tone @ Sep. 14 2009, 5:50 pm)
Quote (love_those_spacemen @ Sep. 14 2009, 4:43 pm)
Quote (lion_tone @ Sep. 14 2009, 1:37 pm)
It's kinda like saying that Scotty was into beastiality because he was seen being kind to animals...:P

Uh, no. Not a comparable juxtaposition at all. But real classy.

It's a joke...

It was Howard Sterny... :sarcastic: :D

:p  :p

Jamaca

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 518

Report this Sep. 14 2009, 11:36 pm

Quote (Mirrorgirl @ Sep. 14 2009, 8:55 pm)
Quote (starbase63 @ Sep. 15 2009, 5:48 am)
I mean come on, James Kirk was the archetypical 60's tv leading man...strong, solid, a hit with the ladies, fiercely heterosexual...is someone going to try to tell me Kirk was in denial or overcompensating?

What logic would Spock find in such a relationship?

:logical:

Okay, it can be shown from canon, that Kirk was NOT a womaniser, and from the 79 episodes he only actually 'beds' three women - Deela, he had no choice in the matter, it was hump or die (from Shatner's acting JTK seemed particularly disturbed by the incident; Druscilla, JTK was in captivity (it could be argued that he was doing her a favour as she may have been punished if she did not seduce him - although I will admit that JTK seemed to enjoy himself here) and Miramanee, JTK had amnesia, although his love for did seem very genuine.

Eith the exxception of Edith Keeler, every other incident of JTK being witha woman, he has alterior motives (alot of them are enemies he is trying to trick, many are androids).

Check dommoz's reviews of TOS. Here is a man who come to us from the Star Wars world, who has no preconceived ideas about Kirk and he has commented on a number of occasions that he has yet to see the 'womaniser Kirk' even after 23 or 24 episodes.

As LTS says and I concur, many very virile, sporty and heroic males are bi-sexual or homosexual.

Now as to the logic Spock might find in a relationship with JTK, I shall quote from the most insightful of commentators on the K/Ssubject, Laura Goodwin (who by the way started to write about K/S as parody, because she also thought it was ridiculous, until she actually started watching and cataloguing the TOS eps in detail and she BECAME convinced of the validity, even veracity of Kirk/Spock, by pure observation).

From Laura Goodwin:

Some people have asserted that Spock can't be Gay because he is celibate, as if it would be illogical for Spock to have sex with *anyone*, but I disagree. Obviously, he would have a lot of perfectly logical reasons to want to have sex, that include _to father children_. That's not the only logical reason he might want to "do it". There are plenty of other logical reasons why he might want to, including:

1) Promotes social bonding.
2) For the experience of pleasure.
3) Relief from sexual tension.
4) As a soporific (helps you to sleep).
5) Health. Keeps the plumbin' workin'!

Heck, here's 14 logical reasons why Spock would like to have sex with Kirk:

1) Kirk has got what it takes. Spock is an ass man, and Kirk does have a cute butt.

2) Kirk loves Spock. It's logical to do it with someone who has positive feelings for you.

3) Kirk and Spock have a lot in common. It's logical to mate with someone who can share much with you.

4) Kirk is trustworthy. It's logical to choose a partner you can trust.

5) Kirk likes sex. It's logical to prefer a sex partner who's positive about sex.

6) Kirk is vigorously healthy. He could take anything the Vulcan could dish out, even if they are playing rough (which he actually would probably prefer).

7) All those adoring women can't be wrong! [Wait, maybe they *are* wrong! Not about whether he's adorable, just about whether he welcomes their adoration.]

8) Kirk is convenient. The guy is always right there. If you gotta go right now, who better to go with than someone who is readily available?

9) Kirk is his Captain, and on his way up the ladder. If Spock makes his Cappy happy, this could help his career!

10) Kirk sure as hell isn't getting pregnant! Let's face it, neither Kirk nor Spock want kids, so it's illogical for them to mess with women!

11) Kirk is a fun guy! Guy's a hoot and a half!

12) Aesthetically, Kirk is a good choice. Kirk is prettier than any of the women.

13) Plus, it feels good, and...

14) It keeps their plumbin' workin' ¿

So it's entirely logical to have sex with Jim Kirk (just because you personally don't find him attractive, believe me others do).

And finall to the belief that all K/S is written by and for people with an inability to understand that men can be close to each other without, well this is just a ridiculous assertion. I know that men can be close without being physically intimate - like OF COURSE!!! But in the case of Kirk and Spock this may not be the case and going on the visual and scripted evidence the weight of evidence falls on the side of yes, they are lovers.

It is folks who can wish to DENY that it IS possible who have the limited view, not vice versa.

Finally here is an artcile by Laura Goodwin that explains alot, if one is interested.

Kinky K/S and Occam's Razor

I wish I could write as clearly and succinctly as this woman.

MG, that is classic...love it. Makes his "Cappy happy" omg....lmao

And you know you are an excellent writer...

lion_tone

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Report this Sep. 14 2009, 11:46 pm

Quote (love_those_spacemen @ Sep. 14 2009, 11:14 pm)
Quote (lion_tone @ Sep. 14 2009, 5:50 pm)
Quote (love_those_spacemen @ Sep. 14 2009, 4:43 pm)
Quote (lion_tone @ Sep. 14 2009, 1:37 pm)
It's kinda like saying that Scotty was into beastiality because he was seen being kind to animals...:P

Uh, no. Not a comparable juxtaposition at all. But real classy.

It's a joke...

It was Howard Sterny... :sarcastic: :D

I was thinking more Stewie Griffin-y:)

lion_tone

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1140

Report this Sep. 15 2009, 12:08 am

Quote (Mirrorgirl @ Sep. 14 2009, 8:55 pm)
With the exception of Edith Keeler, every other incident of JTK being with a woman, he has ulterior motives (a lot of them are enemies he is trying to trick, many are androids).

I wouldn't say that is true at all.

He loved Maramonni, Carol Marcus, Reyna (the Droid), Antonia, and those are just some off the top of my head. He was ALWAYS checking out women...Rand, and many other female crewmembers... and never once a man... ?

It's also funny that in situations where Spock loses his inhibitions, he ends up with human women... Zarabeth, The blond chick with the spores... Even while "drunk" in "The Naked Time," he does not make a move on Kirk...

The slash thing is merely speculation. G-Rod stated that they had deep affection, but any, and all, references are "after the fact." He could have also stated that the Enterprise ran on cornbread in 1978, but it would seem unlikely since it was never mentioned, or alluded to in the series, or any future movie for that matter. Same with K/S. He was riding the "vague" train, and stated they had affection, and *if* the style of 23rd century love (yadda yadda). He did the smart thing and let people make their own conclusions.

If some people wish to instill their own personal leanings on 40-year old film stock that's their own choice and right. People, of, course, see what they wish to see.

I would think that most unbiased people would see the deep friendship, love, and respect in Kirk and Spock's relationship. There is no evidence whatsoever of *any* physical relationship in any script, or film - (even films made in the much more tolerant 1990s).

Okay, maybe this...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j6gi4cY5KY&feature=related

But none here...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWogTTQJRmE&feature=related

lion_tone

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POSTS: 1140

Report this Sep. 15 2009, 12:14 am

Quote (starbase63 @ Sep. 14 2009, 12:37 pm)
Quote (Mirrorgirl @ Sep. 14 2009, 12:14 pm)
Quote (starbase63 @ Sep. 15 2009, 1:49 am)
Quote (Mirrorgirl @ Sep. 13 2009, 9:30 pm)
Gene Roddenberry invented a word - T'hy'la - this word was invented to describe the relationship between Kirk and Spock. It means 'friend, brother, lover'

The beauty of the way that Kirk and Spock are written and portrayed is that if one chooses to interpret their relationship as just friends/brothers then that is what one will see, but equally if one wishes to interpret their relationship as being deeper than that, then that is also valid.

There are many, many slash pairings that have NO basis in canon, however Kirk/Spock are not one of those pairings. There are hundreds of moments that are specifically designed by GR, DC and other writers (notably Theodore Sturgeon) that more than suggest that their relationship was more than just 'brothers'.

Gene Roddenberry's vision was a future where old ideas about what is acceptable are no longer current (multi-cultural crews, a black woman and a Russian as part of a command team, aliens and humans working together). Why is it so outside the realms of possibility that he wrote these characters (Kirk and Spock) as not only a metaphor for love between human and alien, but also love between two men...or does acceptance not extend to homosexuality? So it's okay for characters of different species to be in relationship (numerous examples through all of Star Trek) but it is not okay for members of the same sex to be in relationship - is this the last prejudice? Does the concept of Kirk and Spock being homosexual preclude them from being heroes? In my opinion it makes their story even MORE heroic.

As actors Shatner and Nimoy made the choice to play the characters as deeply intimate with each other. The intesity of their numerous contacts with each other is palpable.

I wonder if folks who decry Kirk/Spock fiction as being 'out of character' have read much of it. I have read hundreds if not thousands of K/S stories and far from being 'out of character' the stories are very much in character and merely thake the final step towards writing their relationship as being physical. I have read a number of straight Star Trek novels which to me 'miss' on character completely and as a result end up being boring and superficial, so does that mean that all Star Trek novels are boring and superficial? No, of course not. I challengefolk who know little or nothing of real Kirk/Spock literature to read the works of Killa or Amanda Warrington or any number of other truly great writers in the genre and then make a comment that these are 'out of character'.

I personally do not like stories where characters are just slashed for the sake of it (Harry Potter fanfic leaps to mind). No I demand that my characters are written true to canon and I do and would not approve of 'shipping' for the sake of it. For example Alan Shore and Denny Crane, who have defined the field of 'bromance' They are beautiful together, but I would NEVER slash them because it is explicitly made clear that their realtionship is platonic...in other words it is not 'canon'. I personally do not slash Kirk/Spock in the nuTrek because there is nothing there to suggest that they have that sort of relationship (and of course it is expressly shown that Spock/Uhura are an item. So you see I am perfectly capable of NOT slashing when canon indicates otherwise, conversely I reserve the right to slash when it is obvious from canon that the relationship exists eg Kirk/Spock.

This is my sepcial subject and I could go on the quote many and varied sources to prove my case, however I am completely aware that those who do not like the idea will never accept any evidence to the contrary and so therefore it is wasted effort.

GR did not deny slash and he INVENTED a word that is a key to understanding what he was trying to achieve with these characters, that's good enough for me. And I will continue to read and write K/S because it is canon.

Sorry, MG, K/S stories are not canon.

And K/S was born years before the novelization of ST:TMP came along when Roddenberry coined the term t'hy'la.

Two men can be close as they can be in a friendship/brotherly sense without there being romantic/sexual aspects.

:logical:

Then Starbase, why did GR include the connotation of 'lover' as also relevant to the word th'y'la? This was in fact Roddenberry acknowledging and en-inforcing slash, which was indeed developed BEFORE the novelization of TMP.

If Roddenberry had wanted to completely deny slash and put the stories to rest, he could have done so very easily...the truth of the matter was that not only did ne not disapprove of slash, he positively encouraged it by the invention of the word th'y'la.

Roddenberry commented on love between Kirk and Spock that:

? Yes, there's certainly some of that -- certainly with love overtones. Deep love. The only difference being, the Greek ideal-- we never suggested in the series-- physical love between the two. But it's the-- we certainly had the feeling that the affection was sufficient for that, if that were the particular style of the 23rd century."[6] ?

From: Shatner, William, et al. Where No Man... The Authorized Biography of William Shatner (ISBN 0-441-88975-1), Ace Books, 1979, pp. 147-8)

Again Roddenberry had the chance to totally deny slash and put the argument to rest, but he chose to say the above, which like all other slash can be interpreted both ways. You see Roddenberry feared that the men in his audience would be alienated if he told the complete truth, so he couched things in terms that could be accceptable to both sides of the argument...he was a very astute man, who know the power of words....he even invented one! ?;) ?- th'y'la - if he had wanted to deny slash and put the argument to rest he would NEVER have included the word 'lover' as part of the definition for this word. ?:logical:

But where in the definition of t'hy'la does it say the term denotes single sex pairings? Could the absence of the term "sister" in the definition have just been an oversight by the male writer?

The word was not created just to apply to Kirk and Spock. It is described as a Vulcan term which would imply general usage.

You are also implying without actual proof that Roddenberry created the term to refer to possible homosexual implications behind Kirk and Spock's friendship.

My best friend in high school and I were exceptionally close...we were a day apart in age, like Kirk and Spock in our personalities...almost telepathic in our communication with each other. T'hy'la may well have described us...but for the fact we were both quite hetero..."lover" is part of the definition, not a requirement of it.

Roddenberry probably didn't deny slash because he probably didn't care about it. Even more so, if he did care, it was proably that the sale of K/S fan stories weren't putting money in his pocket.

:logical:

It could be a word similar to "Aloha." A word that changes meanings depending on the situation.

Cynic321

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Report this Sep. 15 2009, 1:56 am

Quote
The Vulcan language has a perfectly apt word for both 'friend' and 'brother' either of which Roddenberry (through the medium of Spock's thoughts) could have used..


We're sure of this?

I don't understand this slash stuff. Any of it.

The Janeway/Seven thing and the K/S thing. It puts me off. And it's not a bigotry or homophobia attitude on my part.

It's taking deep and complex relationships with many multiple layers & insisting on cheapening (yes I said 'cheapening' ) them by insisting on adding a purely sexual component.

Maybe it's just the testosterone falloff of middle age; but I don't see the need or attraction in doing that. Take the depth of agape/philia feeling (and it plainly is) that Kirk has for Spock (and vice-versa ) evident in Amok Time and then throw some ass groping lust at it and see what sticks?

Or take Janeway's mentor/maternal relationship with a willful, developing Seven of Nine and insist that there's got to be some decadent adolescent lust component to a particularly complex dependence/independence dynamic and it just makes the whole relationship base and exploitive.

And it would be just as base and exploitive if Janeway were male.

If some guys/gals enjoy male on male action, more power to them. They should check out Kirk's nephew Peter over on New Voyages. Should be some heart quickening scenes.

For woman on woman action...just turn on the t.v. these days.

Vice_Adm_Baxter

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Report this Sep. 15 2009, 11:44 am

Quote (starbase63 @ Sep. 15 2009, 8:26 am)

:logical:

lion_tone

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POSTS: 1140

Report this Sep. 15 2009, 12:28 pm

Quote (Mirrorgirl @ Sep. 14 2009, 8:55 pm)
13) Plus, it feels good, and...

14) It keeps their plumbin' workin' ¿

Good thing I didn't just eat:)

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