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I know this isn't exactly Enterprise...

> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote> id="QUOTE">There were too many complaints of DS9 not being A trek. It was special in that we could live on the station and really get to know the folks, their joys, hardships and relationships to a deeper level.

RedShirtGuyNumber1001

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Report this Sep. 06 2009, 12:10 pm

Something to think about...

I hear people discuss why they don't like Abrams because some Trek fans think he attacks them with his comments against them.  That could be true but I wonder if people forgot how Berman had a bit of an attitude as well.

Does anyone remember how Berman refused to do a Trek movie that was associated with DS9 because he didn't like it.  Berman could have made a movie that could have involved TNG, DS9, and maybe even Voyager that talked about the Dominion War.  Instead we got Insurrection which in my opinion had no real place.

Also does anyone remember when He pushed the Remans in Nemesis, some Trek fans didn't agree with the Remans and they weren't fans of Tom Hardy too much either.  Instead Nerman ignored fans and dangled the Remans in front of us during a late Enterprise episode.

Then there was These Are The Voyages.  The last memory that we were to forever have of Star Trek, that many people here have said, "was a middle finger to star trek fans."

If this is true then why on Earth would you want Berman back.  What makes you hate Abrams so much that you would be willing to go back to anotrher closaed minded person.  Rather shouldn't we try and finmd another way.

I personally don't mind Abrams, he is kind of a prick but I am willing to overlook that now that interest has been brought back into Star Trek.

What are your opinions?

Narada

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Report this Sep. 06 2009, 1:44 pm

I am a fan of both Berman and Abrams and all the other creators for Star Trek. I can understand why they have certain attitudes and I do not blame their perspective. I feel they are both honest and intelligent while performing a most difficult balancing act.

Vice_Adm_Baxter

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Report this Sep. 06 2009, 1:50 pm

Quote (trekbuff @ Sep. 06 2009, 10:29 am)

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Might have been a good topic for the General Star Trek Discussions or movies board. Since it's primarily about Berman it still applies.


I think he was trying to avoid the usual bashing that goes on in the movie forum by putting it here.

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Have you read Rick Berman Talks 18 Years of Trek or watched the video at that URL? Berman has many excuses and little acceptance of the responsibility for his failures to deliver.


It's just sad really it is.

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Rick Berman also hasn't done anything since Enterprise. You think there just may be a reason for that?


I think he got very tired of being in the TV business honestly. I heard he was burnt out on it and ready to retire BEFORE starting Enterprise

RomulusRemus

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Report this Sep. 06 2009, 2:13 pm

Abrams IS a prick, I agree.

RedShirtGuyNumber1001

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Report this Sep. 06 2009, 2:17 pm

Yeah I put it in here because...in some of these other forums you get people insulting each other, and the other guy says, "I'll see you after class" or other infantile remarks at times.

I like Narada's answer I think that is probably true.  I also think that neither man is better than the other.  I don't want Berman back, and I am not too sure how long I think JJ should run the show.  We may run the risk of what happened at the end of Xena....instead of trying to build a good story it will focus on "peripherals" you always run the risk of that when you sign up a big named director.

whyaduck

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Report this Sep. 06 2009, 3:28 pm

Quote (trekbuff @ Sep. 06 2009, 1:29 pm)
Have you read Rick Berman Talks 18 Years of Trek or watched the video at that URL? Berman has many excuses and little acceptance of the responsibility for his failures to deliver.

I watched the video from 2:08:20 and found his discussion of the Enterprise actors particularly interesting.

I don't hate him. How could I? He created and wrote for my favorite ST show of all the STs. I think he realized that he made mistakes with Enterprise (for example, the theme song, TATV, etc.) and was too stubborn, but I understand his reasoning for wanting to make Enterprise different than the other ST shows.

Dbear1

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Report this Sep. 06 2009, 4:03 pm

I with whyaduck on this one, I have to give Berman credit for the stuff I like as well as the stuff I do not like.  I like both series Voyager and Enterprise, so I have to give him credit for those shows.

I do admit that when I saw TATV, it did come across a middle finger, to the fans of Enterprise, and especially to the actors (who I am willing to bet where not a happy bunch at the last filming).  But over time I got over it, well a little bit at least, it sounds like he realizes that TATV was a major mistake.  He admits it was a mistake and I am willing to believe he did not mean it as an insult.

As for the theme song, I really did not care one way or another on that issue, I usually just fast forward through it like I do on all my DVDs.  Although I have to admit I kind of like the montage of people like Yeager, Sheapard and the other pioneers of aviation.  But the song itself, no strong feeling either way.

honeybee1111

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Report this Sep. 06 2009, 4:29 pm

I never liked the song, loved the credit montage. But very early on - I think the writers figured out that Enterprise did dark episodes really well - such as Shockwave and the lighthearted theme didn't match. By the time of season three, the show was so dark the theme was actually jarring. Think of the teasers for Impulse, Twilight and Similitude - scary and sad - and then you hear that pop song. Someone should have sucked it up and changed the theme.

I have a hard time believing the intent of TATV was to insult fans - but it sure came off that way.  It was a big insult to the cast and Manny Coto, that's for sure. I remember thinking that TATV felt like an "apology" for Enterprise not being the Next Generation, which pissed me off because Enterprise went out of its way to fix all the things that I found irritating about the Next Generation. (Holodecks, Kiddie Episodes, Shrinks, Warm-fuzzy Klingons, Wesley).

I look back on the Next Generation and I love a handful of episodes - but I hate a whole slew of those episodes, too. Voyager is my least favorite series, but even that show produced some truly outstanding individual episodes. All Trek series are hit or miss and various episodes appeal to a wide variety of fans - and all the complaints about Enterprise's weaker episodes could apply to other series as well. Even the beloved TOS produced some bad episodes. Spectacularly so.

I appreciate Enterprise because it did fix some of the inherent narrative issues that hamstrung Voyager and TNG and a lot of thought went into the nature of the prequel. So, I can't hate the people who created it - because I like it. But I do think the B&B did not write the best episodes and should have let well enough alone and let Manny Coto wrap up what had become his baby.

Honestly, I think many genre shows were cancelled in the early to mid 2000s, including Enterprise, Firefly, Angel and Farscape. All those shows had strong followings, but their networks were either failing or failing to realize that SciFi fans TIVO and that DVD sales can pad profits. If Enterprise had been on a better network or on Sci Fi from the beginning, it may well have survived. Although, SciFI cancelled Farscape, a really innovative and unique Sci Fi show that had an obsessive following.

As for the BSG reboot, it has been critically acclaimed but its ratings were never that good and dropped significantly in its last seasons. Sci Fi shows generally have a passionate niche following - and it would be nice if the boutique network that is supposed to support them would actually realize that.

Vice_Adm_Baxter

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Report this Sep. 06 2009, 5:44 pm

Quote (trekbuff @ Sep. 06 2009, 11:14 am)

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It's also a bit odd that Rick Berman gets "executive producer" credit for 173 episodes of DS9. Didn't he go over to VOY when it started?


He basically gave the writers of DS9 control of it near the end of season 2 because he didn't like the direction they wanted to take it.

He always considered VOY his pet project.

starboob63

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Report this Sep. 06 2009, 5:48 pm

Quote (trekbuff @ Sep. 06 2009, 1:29 pm)
Rick Berman also hasn't done anything since Enterprise. You think there just may be a reason for that?

H.e.l.l. hath no fury like a star trek fan scorned?

whyaduck

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Report this Sep. 06 2009, 6:01 pm

Trekbuff - I've read your opinion on what "fans" didn't like about Enterprise and what you didn't like about it. Speaking as a fan myself (especially of TOS), I liked some of those things you didn't like. ¿I really liked seasons 1 and 2 and liked how they built up the relationships between the characters and how I got to know and care about them. I actually liked the Xindi arc, though I thought it shouldn't have lasted a whole season and I liked Daniels and the TCW stories.

I hated TATV and thought it was insulting to the fans of Enterprise who actually watched and loved the show and to the cast and crew. ¿I don't know if B & B actually meant that to be the case or they were so blinded by what they thought would be a fantastic ending to the show that they just didn't see how it would be perceived.

As to the opening, I love the video and I think the song lyrics fit the concept of Enterprise and the video. You're right that they should have included Uri Gagarin. But, if there was so much criticism of the song at the time, I don't know why they just didn't change it to a dramatic musical theme. That I think was stubborness. They did change it for the mirror shows and the musical theme was very effective over a video, so they could have come up with a theme that worked with the original video early in the series.

Do you have a URL for Connor's comments? I've seen people mention them and I'd love to read the whole interview. I know that Scott probably wouldn't make statements like that, but do you know if he ever commented on the finale or the cancellation?

Vice_Adm_Baxter

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Report this Sep. 06 2009, 7:02 pm

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Re: Vice_Adm_Baxter, Sep. 06 2009, 5:44 pm EDT, 2:44 pm PDT

I saw a very few episodes of Hercules and Xena:Warrior Princess, but I was somehow able to watch every episode of DS9 and VOY and almost every episode of SeaQuest DSV and Babylon 5. The only episodes I missed of B5 was because of its switch to TNT and I had to get satellite TV service. Because of this I have a bit of a problem buying into the competition theory. Also, because I'm a Trek fan, if they were all on at the same time, I would have watched DS9 and recorded VOY for later viewing. When I got satellite service I actually got two receivers because of time conflicts. I had an antenna, two satellite receivers and two VCRs.


Well here is a slight clarification of what I was saying they were all broad casting during the same time frame as DS9(1993 till when ever they got cancelled) not airing at on the same night of the week at the same time.

That's what effected the ratings.

I know some believe the format may have brought some into liking or disliking DS9 yet its clear people were very interested in DS9 since it recieved better ratings than VOY, ENT  and NuBSG put together.

Vice_Adm_Baxter

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Report this Sep. 06 2009, 7:09 pm

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I don't understand why Trek fans failed to understand/get into DS9 and its ratings gradually declined so much when shows like Babylon 5 and the reboot of BSG were so popular.


As far as why TREK fans didn't understand DS9. I think it had more to do with being either your a fan of traditional style TREK (TNG or TOS)  or are a fan of DS9.

BSG  is  a different breed of Sci-Fi thats proven popular over the last few years.

Vice_Adm_Baxter

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Report this Sep. 06 2009, 7:34 pm

> id="QUOTE">
border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (trekbuff @ Sep. 06 2009, 4:27 pm)

border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (Vice_Adm_Baxter @ Sep. 06 2009, 7:09 pm)


I could never figure out why there were the complaints. TREK fans wanted to see what was going on in other parts of the Federation, then when they got what they wanted they started to complain, go figure!

I guess some people are never happy

grigori

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Report this Sep. 06 2009, 8:22 pm

Quote (whyaduck @ Sep. 06 2009, 6:01 pm)
Do you have a URL for Connor's comments? I've seen people mention them and I'd love to read the whole interview.

try this for the Connor Trinneer interview, duck:

http://www.sci-fi.gr/scifi_interview_trinneer.htm\

if it doesn't load, go back to the Interview of the Month tab on the left, THEN hit the Archives tab on the left / it may load faster

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