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Opposing Views on Star Trek XI

Makeshift_Python

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 563

Report this Sep. 04 2009, 6:35 am

Looking at a lot of posts around this area, it seems folks who did not like the new film seem to be brushed off ("everyone liked it, go to hell and die"). I won't deny there are the fanboys who just complain for the sake of it, but you can't deny the antagonistic attitude pro-Abrams folks seem to display.

I happen to have a disapproving view of the new film for my own reasons. I don't deny anyone enjoying it and I envy such enjoyment most feel over it. A lot simply want a simple lowbrow space adventure and they got it. I'm more demanding when it comes to Trek. I don't think the franchise needs to resort to being dumb popcorn that's only concerned of giving masses a roller coaster ride. But the biggest factor is that this is going to be a film franchise.

Frankly I find that decision to be poor for a number of reasons. The Star Trek premise works better on Television where you have week to week episodes expanding the characters and unfolding the mysteries. Having a two hour film every two to three years is limiting, especially when they're being designed to try to connect with everyone who either wants something dark, funny or emotional while TV could provide one episode covering an aspect and then the other next week. It's a much more versatile way. The only reason the previous ten films work IMHO is because they had already had seasons worth of development, especially on TNG's case when they really did started to run out of ideas in their final season.

With Abrams having done a lot with his films, there's no doubts that unless a TV series is issued, a lot of aspects will be ignored such as the Vulcan survivors. Will they ever get a story? Will they be acknowledged? A TV show could be able to cover a plot such as a Vulcan terrorist group attacking Romulan outposts because they've been emotionally traumatized by the event of losing their home world. Kirk and Spock will have to take care of the situation to prevent the possibility of Romulus declaring war over the Federation's lack of action concerning the Vulcan terrorists.

And this is just one aspect out of many. Could we ever see something like this? I find that doubtful. At best this would be a five or six film series and with so many opportunities out there it's really hard to say.

But that's my main beef over the new direction. Logical gaps such as Kirk being immediately promoted from a third year Cadet to the frakkin captain of the Federation Flagship is something you could really just ignore in the sequel in order to make a superior film. At least that's how I'd handle it. What's done is done so you take what's left and do the best you can with it. Perhaps if they dumped the writers of Transformers a new hired writer could bring in something substantial.

Mirrorgirl

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POSTS: 15692

Report this Sep. 04 2009, 6:53 am

I guess we will have to wait and see.

Firstly let me say I can totally understand your problems with the movie and you are entitled to feel that way. I have heard similar to your concerns from a few people and I can acknowledge that many of these things can be pointed out as being problems...for me they are not a problem, but I do understand that they are for others. So no argument there.

In the original series, until the movies, there were no story arcs. In the original series we only saw Vulcan once, we only encountered Vulcans twice. We met Klingons on a number of occasions, Romulans only once. Actually as a type, it was energy beings who we actually encountered more than any corporeal aliens. I for one would like to see some real traditional Star Trek and have the next movie be about the crew of the Enterprise (hopefully with a re-instated and re-invigorated Captain Pike with his First Officer Kirk and their Science Officer Spock) encounter an all-powerful, capricious and insanely smugly arrogant energy being who wishes to imprison and/or enslave lesser, embodied beings. I want to see the crew of the Enterprise out-smart, outwit and outplay said entity and for both sides to learn a few lessons about life the Universe and everything from the encounter. :logical:

SpaceClown77

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POSTS: 337

Report this Sep. 04 2009, 6:57 am

Quote (Makeshift_Python @ Sep. 04 2009, 6:35 am)
("everyone liked it, go to hell and die").

That's the attitude around here, which I don't agree with at all, so you better get used to it.

Makeshift_Python

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 563

Report this Sep. 04 2009, 6:59 am

With Abrams' direction of this being an alternate reality (as in things play out differently not only in the universe, but the characters), I would think a TV show would work better to get to know these characters who are acknowledged to be different from those we know. I mean Scotty certainly isn't the same guy we knew, and I'd hope he'll turn out to be more than just Simon Pegg as comic relief.

Makeshift_Python

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POSTS: 563

Report this Sep. 04 2009, 7:06 am

Quote (SpaceClown77 @ Sep. 04 2009, 3:57 am)
Quote (Makeshift_Python @ Sep. 04 2009, 6:35 am)
("everyone liked it, go to hell and die").

That's the attitude around here, which I don't agree with at all, so you better get used to it.

It's been awhile since I've visited this site, seeing behavior you'd expect on IMDb is surprising. But I suppose that's what happens when a new big film comes out, which is general in all fandom. It happens a lot, I've seen it on plenty of sites (James Bond, Batman), but Star Trek has been on the fringes for the longest time (movie wise) so I suppose this is all just new to me as far as Trek goes.

ENT567

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POSTS: 5267

Report this Sep. 04 2009, 7:21 am

Quote
Opposing Views on Star Trek XI, Are they welcomed here?

As long as you have your own opinion which you can support with sound logic and common sense, you have the right to be here not less than anybody else.

Mirrorgirl

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 15692

Report this Sep. 04 2009, 7:43 am

Quote (SpaceClown77 @ Sep. 04 2009, 8:57 pm)
Quote (Makeshift_Python @ Sep. 04 2009, 6:35 am)
("everyone liked it, go to hell and die").

That's the attitude around here, which I don't agree with at all, so you better get used to it.

I think that is that attitude of two maybe three contributors, the rest of the folks here respect differing points of view, but vigorously defend their own, as it should be.

Vger23

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POSTS: 6799

Report this Sep. 04 2009, 10:54 am

I do not find myself being intolerant of those who dislike the movie when I happen to like it.

What I DO find myself being intolerant of are those who try to rationalize their own opinions by doing the following:

1. Insulting the filmmakers and taking it personally because a product was not written and filmed that precisely conforms with their expectations.
2. Declaring that the movie was only insanely popular with critics, fans, and general audiences because most people are idiots and this movie was targeted at idiots (talk about arrogance, denial and rationalization! )
3. Clearly just ripped because there wasn't yet another TNG film, so their prejudice against this film is extensive
4. Using plotholes, inconsistencies, and errors as the reason that it is the "worst film in history" while ignoring that most other Trek films (including those considered amongst the very best) all have the same kinds of problems, thus applying a double standard.
5. Generally insulting the fandom, intellect, or education levels of anyone who got any level of enjoyment from this movie at all.

Unregistered_Guest

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POSTS: 857

Report this Sep. 04 2009, 11:05 am

No. opposing views are not welcome here.  Go away you Snake! :p

DarthRage

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POSTS: 289

Report this Sep. 04 2009, 11:11 am

Quote (Vger23 @ Sep. 04 2009, 10:54 am)
I do not find myself being intolerant of those who dislike the movie when I happen to like it.

What I DO find myself being intolerant of are those who try to rationalize their own opinions by doing the following:

1. Insulting the filmmakers and taking it personally because a product was not written and filmed that precisely conforms with their expectations.
2. Declaring that the movie was only insanely popular with critics, fans, and general audiences because most people are idiots and this movie was targeted at idiots (talk about arrogance, denial and rationalization! )
3. Clearly just ripped because there wasn't yet another TNG film, so their prejudice against this film is extensive
4. Using plotholes, inconsistencies, and errors as the reason that it is the "worst film in history" while ignoring that most other Trek films (including those considered amongst the very best) all have the same kinds of problems, thus applying a double standard.
5. Generally insulting the fandom, intellect, or education levels of anyone who got any level of enjoyment from this movie at all.

And WE ALL KNOW who those people are.

rocketscientist

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 10054

Report this Sep. 04 2009, 11:39 am

I'm fine with opposing views on the new film.  I can certainly understand why some people don't like it.  I'm with Vger though that it's not the fact that the person has an opposing view, it's also how they treat others here.  A very few people on both sides of the ST XI debate have not behaved well towards other posters, and yeah, we all know who they are.  One of the was recently banned, one left on his own volition, and I don't think it would hurt if a couple of others were gone too.

RedShirtGuyNumber1001

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2016

Report this Sep. 04 2009, 11:46 am

I don't have a problem with people saying they don't like the movie as long as they have a logical argument behind it.  The problem I have is when people say the same things when it is obviously not true.  For example, saying that the movie sucks is just not a good argument to make.  The box office returns were high and the new movie has generated a new fanbase that have also gotten new people to watch some of the older series.  A lot of the times when you ask people who say the movie sucks, they say, "The new movie sucks because it sucks, or JJ Abrams is a sell out."  Those are all irrelevant arguments.  Also repeated questions gets on peoples nerves so please scroll through and make sure you aren't asking the same question all over again.

RedShirtGuyNumber1001

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2016

Report this Sep. 04 2009, 11:47 am

Quote (DarthRage @ Sep. 04 2009, 11:11 am)
Quote (Vger23 @ Sep. 04 2009, 10:54 am)
I do not find myself being intolerant of those who dislike the movie when I happen to like it.

What I DO find myself being intolerant of are those who try to rationalize their own opinions by doing the following:

1. Insulting the filmmakers and taking it personally because a product was not written and filmed that precisely conforms with their expectations.
2. Declaring that the movie was only insanely popular with critics, fans, and general audiences because most people are idiots and this movie was targeted at idiots (talk about arrogance, denial and rationalization! )
3. Clearly just ripped because there wasn't yet another TNG film, so their prejudice against this film is extensive
4. Using plotholes, inconsistencies, and errors as the reason that it is the "worst film in history" while ignoring that most other Trek films (including those considered amongst the very best) all have the same kinds of problems, thus applying a double standard.
5. Generally insulting the fandom, intellect, or education levels of anyone who got any level of enjoyment from this movie at all.

And WE ALL KNOW who those people are.

hey sorry you said pretty much what I said.

Makeshift_Python

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 563

Report this Sep. 04 2009, 2:01 pm

Quote (RedShirtGuyNumber1001 @ Sep. 04 2009, 8:46 am)
I don't have a problem with people saying they don't like the movie as long as they have a logical argument behind it. ¿The problem I have is when people say the same things when it is obviously not true. ¿For example, saying that the movie sucks is just not a good argument to make. ¿The box office returns were high and the new movie has generated a new fanbase that have also gotten new people to watch some of the older series.

Sounds to me like you're implying that because of the box office returns and generating a new fanbase that declaring the film of sucking is automatically canceled out. I'm pretty sure that's not how you meant to phrase that so I'll just take it with a grain of salt. My views on the film have nothing to do with how it effected everyone else, my views are about how it effected myself. It's nice that a lot of people enjoyed this, I just wasn't going along with it. I just believe Star Trek can potentially better than a roller coaster film.

But again, my biggest beef is that it should have been a new TV series. This is a suggestion that I have barely seen around here.

Vger23

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 6799

Report this Sep. 04 2009, 2:45 pm

Quote (Makeshift_Python @ Sep. 04 2009, 2:01 pm)
Quote (RedShirtGuyNumber1001 @ Sep. 04 2009, 8:46 am)
I don't have a problem with people saying they don't like the movie as long as they have a logical argument behind it. ?The problem I have is when people say the same things when it is obviously not true. ?For example, saying that the movie sucks is just not a good argument to make. ?The box office returns were high and the new movie has generated a new fanbase that have also gotten new people to watch some of the older series.

Sounds to me like you're implying that because of the box office returns and generating a new fanbase that declaring the film of sucking is automatically canceled out. I'm pretty sure that's not how you meant to phrase that so I'll just take it with a grain of salt. My views on the film have nothing to do with how it effected everyone else, my views are about how it effected myself. It's nice that a lot of people enjoyed this, I just wasn't going along with it. I just believe Star Trek can potentially better than a roller coaster film.

But again, my biggest beef is that it should have been a new TV series. This is a suggestion that I have barely seen around here.

I think that most of the people who enjoyed the film DID see it as something more than a rollercoaster ride.

You see, THIS is my experience with people who come from your point-of-view. Because it wasn't a talky, preachy, pretentious showpiece...it automatically gets categorized as "neanderthal frat-boy Trek" and dismissed as being low-brow made-for-the-masses entertainment.

If not critical, box office, and majority fan support, by what other measures do you propose the merits of the film are weighed upon?



Sure, we all have our own opinions. But, since you (and those like you) are not likely to change yours and myself (and those like me) are not likely to change ours based on listening to you list all of the problems, concerns, errors, etc you find with the film...then I wonder what the point of the "debate" is to begin with...?

It really irks me when people apply their own personal standards of what Star Trek should or should not be and apply that to the extreme to anything that does not meet those standards. There are all different brands and varieties of Trek. It is a very diversified franchise, even within the respective series themselves. Not all Trek is for all Trek fans. Sometimes you are not going to get what you want. That's life, friends. I wish those who weren't getting what they want would deal with it with a little more grace and humility.

And you don't see the suggestion of a new Trek TV series around here because most people understand and accept that Trek as a TV franchise was dead and would have generated very little interest if yet another television project had randomly popped up. Something like this movie was necessary to really get the franchise back up and running again at the forefront of sci-fi entertainment where it belongs.

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