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Why did they destroy Vulcan?

The_Rack_of_TPol

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POSTS: 391

Report this Aug. 24 2009, 5:10 pm

Loved the movie and I'm a self-admitting Gusher, but I'm just wondering about this...

Did they have to destroy Vulcan?  I mean it wasn't even presented as that big of a deal that an entire world and possibly an entire culture (Only 10,000 Vulcans left?  Something more realistic would have been millions based on how long the Vulcans have been traveling in space...But that's for another post) was wiped off the stellar map.  Compare it to season three of Enterprise...The entire season was based on saving planet earth from the same kind of catastrophe.  And that was based on what?  A 70-80 year earlier time-frame with humans just then starting to explore the galaxy?

Again, it just seemed like they kinda glossed over the fact that the second most important world in Trekdom has been blown into a black hole, leaving only about 10,000 Vulcans in the cosmos.  Maybe they did this on purpose for Trek XII?  Of course time restraints of XI had a lot to do with it too, I'm guessing...

Not really complaining, just wondering...

WkdYngMan

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Report this Aug. 24 2009, 5:21 pm

Quote (The_Rack_of_TPol @ Aug. 24 2009, 5:10 pm)
Again, it just seemed like they kinda glossed over the fact that the second most important world in Trekdom has been blown into a black hole,

They didn't gloss over it of course.  Arguably wasn't even that high on the list to the fandom either.

Quote
Maybe they did this on purpose for Trek XII?  Of course time restraints of XI had a lot to do with it too, I'm guessing...


What time constraints are you speaking of?

The_Rack_of_TPol

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POSTS: 391

Report this Aug. 24 2009, 6:12 pm

Quote (DammitJim6200 @ Aug. 24 2009, 5:47 pm)
Quote (The_Rack_of_TPol @ Aug. 23 2009, 6:10 pm)
Loved the movie and I'm a self-admitting Gusher, but I'm just wondering about this...

Did they have to destroy Vulcan? ?I mean it wasn't even presented as that big of a deal that an entire world and possibly an entire culture (Only 10,000 Vulcans left? ?Something more realistic would have been millions based on how long the Vulcans have been traveling in space...But that's for another post) was wiped off the stellar map. ?Compare it to season three of Enterprise...The entire season was based on saving planet earth from the same kind of catastrophe. ?And that was based on what? ?A 70-80 year earlier time-frame with humans just then starting to explore the galaxy?

Again, it just seemed like they kinda glossed over the fact that the second most important world in Trekdom has been blown into a black hole, leaving only about 10,000 Vulcans in the cosmos. ?Maybe they did this on purpose for Trek XII? ?Of course time restraints of XI had a lot to do with it too, I'm guessing...

Not really complaining, just wondering...

One reason why they did it, they're stupid..
And apparently they want to wipe all memory of TOS from our minds and accept this...GARBAGE. ? :logical:

Ugh...

Do us all a favor, including yourself?  Go find some place you like and where you're liked?

You'll enjoy life a lot more.

rocketscientist

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POSTS: 10054

Report this Aug. 24 2009, 6:43 pm

Quote (The_Rack_of_TPol @ Aug. 24 2009, 5:10 pm)
Loved the movie and I'm a self-admitting Gusher, but I'm just wondering about this...

Did they have to destroy Vulcan? ¿I mean it wasn't even presented as that big of a deal that an entire world and possibly an entire culture (Only 10,000 Vulcans left? ¿Something more realistic would have been millions based on how long the Vulcans have been traveling in space...But that's for another post) was wiped off the stellar map. ¿Compare it to season three of Enterprise...The entire season was based on saving planet earth from the same kind of catastrophe. ¿And that was based on what? ¿A 70-80 year earlier time-frame with humans just then starting to explore the galaxy?

Again, it just seemed like they kinda glossed over the fact that the second most important world in Trekdom has been blown into a black hole, leaving only about 10,000 Vulcans in the cosmos. ¿Maybe they did this on purpose for Trek XII? ¿Of course time restraints of XI had a lot to do with it too, I'm guessing...

Not really complaining, just wondering...

Yeah, I think they had to destroy Vulcan or do something like that, ROT.  They needed to have some big events that would underline the fact that this was a whole new ST continuity.  I believe the Empire magazine reviewer, or one of the others, gushed about this event, saying that it was a really brave move by the filmakers, letting the bomb go off, so to speak.  Fans knew that Vulcan wasn't supposed to be destroyed in the original continuity and that Amanda should not have died that early or that traumatically in Spock's life.  Further, we also knew from the nature of Kirk's father's death by Nero that Kirk most likely didn't lose his father that young.  All those events were significant both for the ST universe and the characters themselves.  They were the things that enabled the film-makers to "reboot" the franchise while keeping the "souls" of the characters, and much of the ST universe intact.  That has never ever been done before in the franchise.  Whenever a change to the timeline has been made, the characters have gone back in time to "fix" things (at least to a point where a return to the present shows no noticeable changes).  I thought it was a really daring and great move by the Abrams, Orci, and Kurtzmann.  It kept the characters the same, in their spirts and roles, but it opened up their futures so they could be enjoyed all over again without anyone knowing how it would turn out.

Vorta_the_point

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Report this Aug. 24 2009, 6:54 pm

Did they definitely state that the 10,000 Vulcans were the sum total of all the Vulcans left in the galaxy? I had assumed the 10,000 were just the number of survivors of Vulcan itself, and that there were other (albeit far smaller) colonies of Vulcans out there, though I could be wrong.

I think the main reasons they destroyed Vulcan were two-fold - firstly, it's destruction would drastically alter the timeline (the massive shift in the balance of power in the Alpha Quadrant it's removal would cause means that history will almost certainly not play out like it did in TOS), making the new timeline more separate and distinct from the prime one, and not just a TOS rehash with a new coat of paint; it underscored that things will be vastly different from now on.

Secondly, I think that Vulcan's destruction (and also the death of Spock's mother) carried immeasurably more dramatic impact to anyone familiar with Star Trek than randomly blowing up some planet never before heard of; Vulcan is such a major landmark in Star Trek, that up until the last minute, I genuinely thought they were going to somehow stop Nero's weapon - and when they didn't, and the scene of Vulcan being sucked away happened, I sat there literally gobsmacked - it was such a major shake-up with such a major planet, that it's impact was huge, pretty much as if a main character had died. Had the planet not been Vulcan (or some other major planet), the level of impact it had on the audience would have been significantly less.

EDIT: Bah - rocketscientist beat me to it!  :D

PhantomCrunk007

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POSTS: 5088

Report this Aug. 24 2009, 7:21 pm

Quote (DammitJim6200 @ Aug. 24 2009, 2:47 am)
Quote (The_Rack_of_TPol @ Aug. 23 2009, 6:10 pm)
Loved the movie and I'm a self-admitting Gusher, but I'm just wondering about this...

Did they have to destroy Vulcan? ?I mean it wasn't even presented as that big of a deal that an entire world and possibly an entire culture (Only 10,000 Vulcans left? ?Something more realistic would have been millions based on how long the Vulcans have been traveling in space...But that's for another post) was wiped off the stellar map. ?Compare it to season three of Enterprise...The entire season was based on saving planet earth from the same kind of catastrophe. ?And that was based on what? ?A 70-80 year earlier time-frame with humans just then starting to explore the galaxy?

Again, it just seemed like they kinda glossed over the fact that the second most important world in Trekdom has been blown into a black hole, leaving only about 10,000 Vulcans in the cosmos. ?Maybe they did this on purpose for Trek XII? ?Of course time restraints of XI had a lot to do with it too, I'm guessing...

Not really complaining, just wondering...

One reason why they did it, they're stupid..
And apparently they want to wipe all memory of TOS from our minds and accept this...GARBAGE. ? :logical:

Hey genius, something is only logical when all your premises are correct.

1. They're not stupid
2. The idea that they're trying to make people forget about TOS is preposterous.

rocketscientist

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POSTS: 10054

Report this Aug. 24 2009, 7:36 pm

Quote (Vorta_the_point @ Aug. 24 2009, 6:54 pm)
Did they definitely state that the 10,000 Vulcans were the sum total of all the Vulcans left in the galaxy? I had assumed the 10,000 were just the number of survivors of Vulcan itself, and that there were other (albeit far smaller) colonies of Vulcans out there, though I could be wrong.

I think the main reasons they destroyed Vulcan were two-fold - firstly, it's destruction would drastically alter the timeline (the massive shift in the balance of power in the Alpha Quadrant it's removal would cause means that history will almost certainly not play out like it did in TOS), making the new timeline more separate and distinct from the prime one, and not just a TOS rehash with a new coat of paint; it underscored that things will be vastly different from now on.

Secondly, I think that Vulcan's destruction (and also the death of Spock's mother) carried immeasurably more dramatic impact to anyone familiar with Star Trek than randomly blowing up some planet never before heard of; Vulcan is such a major landmark in Star Trek, that up until the last minute, I genuinely thought they were going to somehow stop Nero's weapon - and when they didn't, and the scene of Vulcan being sucked away happened, I sat there literally gobsmacked - it was such a major shake-up with such a major planet, that it's impact was huge, pretty much as if a main character had died. Had the planet not been Vulcan (or some other major planet), the level of impact it had on the audience would have been significantly less.

EDIT: Bah - rocketscientist beat me to it! ¿:D

:laugh: Sorry Vorta!

I think you did a much better job, though, of explaining the second point.  You're totally right.  Destroying Vulcan and Spock's mom, not only hit the general audience hard, it hit fans even harder.  

I admit, I'd acidentally read spoilers that Vulcan was going to be destroyed, so I wasn't suprised (I did think they could've been rumors though).  But Spock's mom dying, well, that was a kick to the gut.  After that, I was wondering, what will Spock do now?  I thought the writers got his reaction right.  He pretty much went kind of crazy, as Spock Prime knew he would.  

It was touching to see Sarek bring him back to his bridge.  I was wondering during the film what would happen to Spock and Sarek's relationship without Amanda and we all found out that it caused their estrangement to end years earlier and, possibly, it led to an over all better relationship between the two, another big difference from the original timeline.

Baratine

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Report this Aug. 24 2009, 7:43 pm

Just to start over.. Earth goes away in the next film.

DS9TREK

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Report this Aug. 24 2009, 8:07 pm

Quote (rocketscientist @ Aug. 24 2009, 11:43 pm)
Quote (The_Rack_of_TPol @ Aug. 24 2009, 5:10 pm)
Loved the movie and I'm a self-admitting Gusher, but I'm just wondering about this...

Did they have to destroy Vulcan? ?I mean it wasn't even presented as that big of a deal that an entire world and possibly an entire culture (Only 10,000 Vulcans left? ?Something more realistic would have been millions based on how long the Vulcans have been traveling in space...But that's for another post) was wiped off the stellar map. ?Compare it to season three of Enterprise...The entire season was based on saving planet earth from the same kind of catastrophe. ?And that was based on what? ?A 70-80 year earlier time-frame with humans just then starting to explore the galaxy?

Again, it just seemed like they kinda glossed over the fact that the second most important world in Trekdom has been blown into a black hole, leaving only about 10,000 Vulcans in the cosmos. ?Maybe they did this on purpose for Trek XII? ?Of course time restraints of XI had a lot to do with it too, I'm guessing...

Not really complaining, just wondering...

Yeah, I think they had to destroy Vulcan or do something like that, ROT. ¿They needed to have some big events that would underline the fact that this was a whole new ST continuity. ¿I believe the Empire magazine reviewer, or one of the others, gushed about this event, saying that it was a really brave move by the filmakers, letting the bomb go off, so to speak. ¿Fans knew that Vulcan wasn't supposed to be destroyed in the original continuity and that Amanda should not have died that early or that traumatically in Spock's life. ¿Further, we also knew from the nature of Kirk's father's death by Nero that Kirk most likely didn't lose his father that young. ¿All those events were significant both for the ST universe and the characters themselves. ¿They were the things that enabled the film-makers to "reboot" the franchise while keeping the "souls" of the characters, and much of the ST universe intact. ¿That has never ever been done before in the franchise. ¿Whenever a change to the timeline has been made, the characters have gone back in time to "fix" things (at least to a point where a return to the present shows no noticeable changes). ¿I thought it was a really daring and great move by the Abrams, Orci, and Kurtzmann. ¿It kept the characters the same, in their spirts and roles, but it opened up their futures so they could be enjoyed all over again without anyone knowing how it would turn out.

I've never thought of it as brave. There's barely a sci-fi universe that hasn't destroyed an important alien planet or two. Be it StarGate destroying the Asgard homeworld (twice) or Doctor Who destroying Skaro and Gallifrey. So I'm only surprised Star Trek didn't do something like it sooner. Destroying Earth and leaving it that way would've been brave.

Vice_Adm_Baxter

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Report this Aug. 24 2009, 8:27 pm

Quote (The_Rack_of_TPol @ Aug. 24 2009, 2:10 pm)

Quote
Again, it just seemed like they kinda glossed over the fact that the second most important world in Trekdom has been blown into a black hole, leaving only about 10,000 Vulcans in the cosmos.  Maybe they did this on purpose for Trek XII?  Of course time restraints of XI had a lot to do with it too, I'm guessing...

Not really complaining, just wondering...


They didn't gloss over anything they just set up the alternate timeline/universe is all.

MrMordenandAssociates

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Report this Aug. 24 2009, 9:58 pm

Can't remember the name of the TOS episode, but the Vulcan crewed Intrepid is destroyed by a giant single-cell. The death of over 400 Vulcans light years away caused Spock to double over in pain. How does the death of 6 Billion Vulcans not kill Spock and all the other Vulcans on Edselprise in near orbit?

SaturnsRings

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Report this Aug. 24 2009, 10:12 pm

Quote (MrMordenandAssociates @ Aug. 24 2009, 9:58 pm)
Can't remember the name of the TOS episode, but the Vulcan crewed Intrepid is destroyed by a giant single-cell. The death of over 400 Vulcans light years away caused Spock to double over in pain. How does the death of 6 Billion Vulcans not kill Spock and all the other Vulcans on Edselprise in near orbit?

The Immunity Factor. In that episode it came suddenly and without warning. In the movie Spock knew it was going to happen, so maybe he was able to mentally prepare for it.

ssmukhi

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Report this Aug. 25 2009, 12:34 am

Quote (SaturnsRings @ Aug. 25 2009, 10:12 am)
Quote (MrMordenandAssociates @ Aug. 24 2009, 9:58 pm)
Can't remember the name of the TOS episode, but the Vulcan crewed Intrepid is destroyed by a giant single-cell. The death of over 400 Vulcans light years away caused Spock to double over in pain. How does the death of 6 Billion Vulcans not kill Spock and all the other Vulcans on Edselprise in near orbit?

The Immunity Factor. In that episode it came suddenly and without warning. In the movie Spock knew it was going to happen, so maybe he was able to mentally prepare for it.

The Immunity SYNDROME.

Being mentally prepared for it has nothing to do with it. The dialog goes like this:

SPOCK: I assure you, Doctor, I am quite all right. The pain was momentary. It passed quickly.
MCCOY: All of my instruments seem to agree with you if I can trust these crazy Vulcan readings. Spock, how can you be so sure the lntrepid was destroyed?
(Spock gets off the bed.)
SPOCK: I sensed it die.
MCCOY: But I thought you had to be in physical contact with a subject before
SPOCK: Doctor, even I, a half-Vulcan, could hear the death scream of four hundred Vulcan minds crying out over the distance between us.
MCCOY: Not even a Vulcan could feel a starship die.
SPOCK: Call it a deep understanding of the way things happen to Vulcans, but I know not a person, not even the computers on board the Intrepid, knew what was killing them or would have understood it had they known.
MCCOY: But four hundred Vulcans?
SPOCK: I've noticed that about your people, Doctor. You find it easier to understand the death of one than the death of a million. You speak about the objective hardness of the Vulcan heart, yet how little room there seems to be in yours.
MCCOY: Suffer the death of thy neighbour, eh, Spock? You wouldn't wish that on us, would you?
SPOCK: It might have rendered your history a bit less bloody.

MrsStarbuck

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Report this Aug. 25 2009, 9:23 am

Quote (rocketscientist @ Aug. 24 2009, 1:36 am)
Destroying Vulcan and Spock's mom, not only hit the general audience hard, it hit fans even harder. ¿

I don't think it did hit the general audience that hard, and that's why I now have a problem with it.

When I saw the film I wasn't familiar with TOS. I knew that the planet Vulcan was where Spock came from, but the way they handled the destruction in the film, I was kind of left feeling 'so what?'

Now that I've watched TOS I can appreciate how devastating it was. I just don't think it came over that strongly to people who were not TOS fans.

rocketscientist

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Report this Aug. 25 2009, 11:18 am

Quote (MrsStarbuck @ Aug. 25 2009, 9:23 am)
Quote (rocketscientist @ Aug. 24 2009, 1:36 am)
Destroying Vulcan and Spock's mom, not only hit the general audience hard, it hit fans even harder. ?

I don't think it did hit the general audience that hard, and that's why I now have a problem with it.

When I saw the film I wasn't familiar with TOS. I knew that the planet Vulcan was where Spock came from, but the way they handled the destruction in the film, I was kind of left feeling 'so what?'

Now that I've watched TOS I can appreciate how devastating it was. I just don't think it came over that strongly to people who were not TOS fans.

Well, I agree with you that it hurt the fans more.  

BTW, were you familiar with any of the franchise's shows before seeing the movie.  I would think that anyone (and I'm not saying I'm right because, as a fan of classic ST, I do lack that context) who was a TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT fan would also feel the pain of Vulcan's demise.

BTW, I think it's cool that you've checked ST out!

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