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tatv

thereR4lights

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POSTS: 2643

Report this Aug. 19 2009, 5:41 am

im in the middle of watching the whole enterpise series, im loving it, but i watched it when it was originaly aired, and again on sci-fi channel... i would have bought the series but was starting school over seas..

i remember tatv to be anti climatic for the end of the series and an all around sub par episode... but not the worst.

im going to wait to watch it again, but i remember everything that happened...

why does everyone think it's the absolute worst abomination to happen to this show, i recognize its a very cliped end to the show and rushed, and maybee ill agree when i get through the series, just wondering...

ENT567

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Report this Aug. 19 2009, 5:59 am

Hi thereR4lights

:)

honeybee1111

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Report this Aug. 19 2009, 7:50 am

Well, my feeling about TATV was that Enterprise was a much criticized show - rightfully sometimes but often unfairly - that had finally hit its stride in the last two seasons. TATV used some of the worst, most annoying concepts in TNG, which was a good show but had its share of problems and terrible episodes, and shoved them into a 1-hour finale that did justice to nothing. Making the last episode about Riker's angst was just wrong. It should have been about Archer, but even he was secondary as written.

While I am fine with tragic endings, and in principle would have been able to deal with killing off one of the show's best characters, it was executed poorly and did not cohere with what we had just seen in Demons/Terra Prime. I believe that if you are going to kill one of the show's most popular characters - it better be the central theme of the episode or film (See Wrath of Khan) and you had better write it well. Some vehemently disagree with me on that, but sad endings can work.

I especially had an issue with TATV since it aired right after Terra Prime, one of my favorite episodes. The death of Elizabeth in the two-episode arc worked very well for me. It was a three-hankie episode that moved all the characters toward the founding of the Federation. It felt like a good end to all the series, as well. Right after Terra Prime, TATV felt like mean-spirited overkill to me. It felt like - dead babies aren't enough - we're going to give you "improved" tragedy. With holodecks!

Braga botched killing Kirk in Generations, Data in Nemesis, Kes on Voyager (if you can call that killing) and Trip on Enterprise. He just can't kill off a main character properly.

The Trip & T'Pol romance, the only long-term one on the show, was not always well-written or coherent on screen. But through the 4th season, Many Coto was clearly trying to bring them together and lots of people wanted to see that. Then suddenly, after Bound (the light, romantic episode) and Terra Prime (the tragic episode) - they just break up for six years and then he dies before they can get back together? Even though they have a permanent, Vulcan telepathic bond? It made no sense with what we had seen onscreen. I have even thought that if they had been together for six years - then the idea of him dying tragically would have been more palatable.

But having them break up annoyed me for more than shippy, romantic reasons. They represented the future that had been hinted at in Future Tense- one where human/alien relationships could thrive. Breaking them up didn't fit thematically with the idea that humans and other species were evolving beyond their isolationism. They should have been a small symbol of what would eventually become the norm.

Serit

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Report this Aug. 19 2009, 7:55 am

Quote (thereR4lights @ Aug. 19 2009, 5:41 am)
>snipped for brevity<
why does everyone think it's the absolute worst abomination to happen to this show? I recognize its a very clipped end to the show and rushed, and maybe I'll agree when i get through the series, just wondering...
For one very good reason...

...the @#$%@! idiots who were the producers killed Trip Tucker (for no good reason, mind you) in "TATV" (a.k.a. 'the abomination' ), and then they had the nerve to claim they wrote the ep as a "Valentine" to the fans--and that's not even including that they framed the crap as a TNG holoprogram with Troi and Riker (...honey, that starship has soo left spacedock, it's not funny... )

One does not kill off the most popular (and internally, the most important) character in a series and call it a "Valentine." Many fans considered the ep the @#$%@! idiot producers' finger...

Now do you understand?

thereR4lights

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Report this Aug. 19 2009, 7:59 am

well, i completley disagree with your opinion on both tng and the death of data... i have rip data tatooed on my arm and i thought it was well done, and tng imo, is the best trek ever got..

again, i thought it was a sub par episode that was ruched, and the series felt cliped... even though tucker's death wasnt well written or executed, i think that what he did is something trip would really do..

as for riker being a main character... i think it was just a way to tie everything together very quickly by focusing on him so the audience doesnt focus on the clouser of the main charcters (which didnt happen)... rushed? absolutly!  well written?  it could have been much better!  the worst? im not sure about that
i agree it could have been much better, i just dont think it was the worst... but im going through it again and maybe my opinion will change//

thnx for the response btw :)

honeybee1111

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Report this Aug. 19 2009, 8:00 am

Quote
tng imo, is the best trek ever got..


TNG had some great, great episodes. But it had some pretty terrible ones too. Really awful. I say that as a fan who thinks series TNG was better than all four TNG films combined! And Data was my favorite character. I wanted to like Nemesis - I just didn't.

And there is no holodeck episode in Trek that I like. Not one. Although I think DS9 overused them as much as TNG did.

thereR4lights

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POSTS: 2643

Report this Aug. 19 2009, 8:00 am

Quote (Serit @ Aug. 19 2009, 7:55 am)
Quote (thereR4lights @ Aug. 19 2009, 5:41 am)
>snipped for brevity<
why does everyone think it's the absolute worst abomination to happen to this show? I recognize its a very clipped end to the show and rushed, and maybe I'll agree when i get through the series, just wondering...
For one very good reason...

...the @#$%@! idiots who were the producers killed Trip Tucker (for no good reason, mind you) in "TATV" (a.k.a. 'the abomination' ), and then they had the nerve to claim they wrote the ep as a "Valentine" to the fans--and that's not even including that they framed the crap as a TNG holoprogram with Troi and Riker (...honey, that starship has soo left spacedock, it's not funny... )

One does not kill off the most popular (and internally, the most important) character in a series and call it a "Valentine." Many fans considered the ep the @#$%@! idiot producers' finger...

Now do you understand?

so it was a tragic ending...

beloved characters die all the time... its no reason to hate the show to the intensity you are showing...

in short, no... i dont understand

ENT567

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Report this Aug. 19 2009, 8:15 am

Quote (thereR4lights @ Posted: Aug. 19 2009, 7:59 am)
even though tucker's death wasnt well written or executed, i think that what he did is something trip would really do..

I think so too.

honeybee1111

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POSTS: 880

Report this Aug. 19 2009, 8:29 am

Oh, I agree as well. It is something Trip would do. We saw "Trip" sacrifice himself in Similitude. Sim sacrifices himself because that is what Trip would do. Oh, and Trip also dies in E2 and The Observer Effect. Oh, and Twilight. And in every single one of those episodes it's done better.

So again, TATV feels like a retread that is empty and unnecessary.

I've seen Similitude many times, it never loses its impact. I would never want to see Sim's sacrifice undone. I've seen Terra Prime many times and would never want to see the ending changed. But I was just so darned relieved when "The Good That Men Do" undid Trip's death. It's not that I don't like tragedy or sad endings - I just didn't like the way that one was done for so many reasons. Poor execution, mean-spiritedness, mostly.

thereR4lights

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Report this Aug. 19 2009, 8:36 am

so is it trip's death that makes it the worst episode... trips death that turns this show in to the 7 headed monster that almost ruined star trek...

honeybee1111

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Report this Aug. 19 2009, 8:46 am

Trip's death alone doesn't make it the worst episode for me...it's the writing and the half-assed attempt to do all sorts of stuff that fails - Trip's death is the salt in the wound though.

I don't think TATV almost ruined Star Trek. That honor goes to the now dead UPN. I keep trying to ignore TATV, but it keeps rearing its ugly head. The books fixed TATV pretty well, in my opinion and I'm enjoying how the story continues.

I will refrain from a rant against holodecks and how they never, ever produce good episodes no matter how much the writers enjoy them.

I suppose you could point to worse quality Trek episodes - but its the level of the choke - the last episode of series trek just botches everything and insults the fans of Enterprise that stuck with the show despite criticism from all sides - that really makes it a standout of awfulness.

whyaduck

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Report this Aug. 19 2009, 8:55 am

Quote (thereR4lights @ Aug. 19 2009, 8:36 am)
so is it trip's death that makes it the worst episode... trips death that turns this show in to the 7 headed monster that almost ruined star trek...

To me, Trip's death was just part of it. He shouldn't have died, but when he did, there really wasn't much recognition of his death by his close friends. I didn't like that they jumped ahead all those years. I didn't like that Trip and T'Pol were not in a relationship any longer and it was given short shrift. I didn't like that they brought in TNG characters and made the Enterprise a historic hologram.

There are parts of the episode that I did like, but they should have been done as a totally different finale (Archer and T'Pol at the end when he walks up to give his speech, for example).

From what I heard, the cast thought the episode was a slap in the face.

To me the best, and most emotional, part of the whole episode was the ending with the three ships and the three captains doing the "Space. The final frontier..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFq2q_bhp9U

thereR4lights

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POSTS: 2643

Report this Aug. 19 2009, 8:56 am

i appreciate your comments.. again, im just now half way through at my own pace... i have seen all the episodes but only when aired.  even though i thought it was a bad episode i didnt think it was the worst, my opinion might change, you guys know much more about this series than i do right now, im almost at the end of season 2... im a tng and tos freak, so i ;like the tng theams in ent... we will see.

again,
cheers for the response :D

Gryffindor7

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Report this Aug. 19 2009, 9:05 am

Though Trip's death is one of the reason but to me TATV is an abomination because IMHO, it's a disrespectful way of ending ENT...I have nothing against TNG but by ending ENT that way, it gives me, at least, the impression that ENT is not worth giving a good ending on its own...they have to depend on 'others' for a grand finale...the story about Shran and even Trip's death could have made a good series ending episode without TNG being thrown in...and they could have had, as a last scene, Archer giving his all important speech...I would have loved to see that, not the holodeck nonsense that we got...anyway, that's just my opinion...

Middleman

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Report this Aug. 19 2009, 9:19 am

HoneyBee I don't think anyone could have said it better. you hit the nail right on the head when it comes to TATV, especially the whole Trip & T'Pol thing. I also like your view that in TATV T'Pol was trying to "get back together" with Trip after a six year break-up. I never really looked at it that way (mostly because I refuse to watch it again).

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