ATTENTION: The Boards will be closed permanently on May 28th, 2014. Posting will be disabled on April 28th, 2014. More Info

X-Wing fighter vs Klingon Bird Of Prey

Vorta_the_point

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 624

Report this Aug. 13 2009, 7:23 pm

Quote (captbates @ Aug. 13 2009, 11:30 pm)
From what we know of the Q, please tell me who in Sci-Fi is more powerful, and explain why.


Certainly - the example I used earlier was an Arisian Elder from the Lensman series, in this case I'll use the character Mentor of Arisia, their most prominent elder.

The Arisians, like the Q, are an exceptionally advanced race who have evolved beyond their original human-like corporeal forms to become some sort of energy beings. Their greatest assets are their minds; they are possessed of incredible intelligence and are the most potent telepaths in the universe, able to connect instantaneously to any number of beings anywhere in space, read their minds and even take over and alter (or destroy) their minds.

As a showcase of their power, I will give you the example of what the Arisians call their Visualisation of the Macrocosmic All; they can (in their head! ) predict the entire layout of all space and time in all dimensions of the multiverse just by concentrating and 'considering fully' a single object, such as a grain of sand; incredibly, they do this as mental stimulation, their equivalent of chess! To show you a more concrete example of this in practice, I'll give you an excerpt from one of the Lensman books; Mentor is asked by a sceptical human, Samms, to explain the Visualisation of the Cosmic All, and Mentor does so by calculating the following:



" "In my visualisation a descendent of yours named Clarissa MacDougall will, in a store called Brenleer's upon the planet... but no, let us consider a thing nearer at hand...

...

"Five Tellurian calendar years then, from the instant of your passing through the screen of "The Hill" on this persent journey, you will be... allow me, please, a moment of thought... you will be in a barber shop not yet built; the address of which is to be fifteen hundred fifteen Twelfth Avenue, Spokane, Washington, North America, Tellus. The barber's name will be Antonio Carbonero and he will be left-handed. He will be engaged in cutting your hair. Or rather, the actual cutting will have been done and he will be shaving, with a razor trade-marked "Jensen-King-Byrd", the short hairs in front of your left ear. A comparatively small, quadrupedal, greyish-striped entity, of the race called "cat" - a young cat, this one will be, and called Thomas, although actually of the female sex - will jump into your lap, addressing you pleasantly in a language with which you yourself are only partially familiar. You call it mewing and purring, I believe?"

"Yes," the flabbergasted Samms managed to say. "Cats do purr - especially kittens."

"Ah - very good. Never having met a cat personally, I am gratified at your corroboration of my visualisation. This female youth erroneously called Thomas, somewhat careless in computing the elements of her trajectory, will jostle slightly the barber's elbow with her tail; thus causing him to make a slight incision, approximately three millimetres long, parallel to and just above your left cheekbone. At the precise moment in question, the barber will be applying a styptic pencil to the insignificant wound. This forecast is, I trust, sufficiently detailed so that you will have no difficulty in checking its accuracy or lack thereof?"

...

"These that I have mentioned, the gross occurrences, are problems only for inexperienced thinkers," Mentor paid no attention to Samms' determination never to enter that shop. "The real difficulties lie in the fine detail, such as the length, mass and exact place and position of landing, upon apron or floor, of each of your hairs as it is severed. Many factors are involved. Other clients passing by - opening and shutting doors - air currents - sunshine - wind - pressure, temperature, humidity. The exact fashion in which the barber will flick his shears, which in turn depends upon many other factors - what he will have been doing previously, what he will have eaten and drunk, whether or not his home life will have been happy... you little realise, youth, what a priceless opportunity this will be for me to check the accuracy of my visualisation. I shall spend many periods upon the problem. I cannot achieve perfect accuracy, of course. Ninety-nine point nine nines per cent, let us say... or perhaps ten nines... is all that I can reasonably expect..." "




Needless to say, the "gross occurences" end up coming true by the end of the book. And they do this as the equivalent of chess, in their head! Compare this with Q's inability to predict or understand human behaviour and his failure trying to manipulate Riker and Picard. Indeed, Q's professed IQ of 2005 (just over 13 times smarter than a clever human) seems rather pedestrian compared to Mentor's intellect!

Is that a sufficient example of a top end sci-fi advanced being?


Quote (captbates @ Aug. 13 2009, 11:11 pm)
Technology? I think you've got the Q mixed up with someone else.


No, no, the Q use technology too; there's even an example that has been discussed earlier in this thread - the "Musket", a Q weapon. As Quinn, the suicidal Q from Death Wish said:

"But you mustn't think of us as omnipotent, no matter what the Continuum would like you to believe. You and your ship seem incredibly powerful to life-forms without your technical expertise. It's no different with us. We may appear omnipotent to you, but believe me, we're not."

captbates

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 12614

Report this Aug. 13 2009, 7:34 pm

OK before we go any further are you saying that the Q can only do what we see on screen by using technology?

captbates

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 12614

Report this Aug. 13 2009, 7:45 pm

Quote
...

"Five Tellurian calendar years then, from the instant of your passing through the screen of "The Hill" on this persent journey, you will be... allow me, please, a moment of thought... you will be in a barber shop not yet built; the address of which is to be fifteen hundred fifteen Twelfth Avenue, Spokane, Washington, North America, Tellus. The barber's name will be Antonio Carbonero and he will be left-handed. He will be engaged in cutting your hair. Or rather, the actual cutting will have been done and he will be shaving, with a razor trade-marked "Jensen-King-Byrd", the short hairs in front of your left ear. A comparatively small, quadrupedal, greyish-striped entity, of the race called "cat" - a young cat, this one will be, and called Thomas, although actually of the female sex - will jump into your lap, addressing you pleasantly in a language with which you yourself are only partially familiar. You call it mewing and purring, I believe?"

"Yes," the flabbergasted Samms managed to say. "Cats do purr - especially kittens."

"Ah - very good. Never having met a cat personally, I am gratified at your corroboration of my visualisation. This female youth erroneously called Thomas, somewhat careless in computing the elements of her trajectory, will jostle slightly the barber's elbow with her tail; thus causing him to make a slight incision, approximately three millimetres long, parallel to and just above your left cheekbone. At the precise moment in question, the barber will be applying a styptic pencil to the insignificant wound. This forecast is, I trust, sufficiently detailed so that you will have no difficulty in checking its accuracy or lack thereof?"

...

"These that I have mentioned, the gross occurrences, are problems only for inexperienced thinkers," Mentor paid no attention to Samms' determination never to enter that shop. "The real difficulties lie in the fine detail, such as the length, mass and exact place and position of landing, upon apron or floor, of each of your hairs as it is severed. Many factors are involved. Other clients passing by - opening and shutting doors - air currents - sunshine - wind - pressure, temperature, humidity. The exact fashion in which the barber will flick his shears, which in turn depends upon many other factors - what he will have been doing previously, what he will have eaten and drunk, whether or not his home life will have been happy... you little realise, youth, what a priceless opportunity this will be for me to check the accuracy of my visualisation. I shall spend many periods upon the problem. I cannot achieve perfect accuracy, of course. Ninety-nine point nine nines per cent, let us say... or perhaps ten nines... is all that I can reasonably expect..." "



Needless to say, the "gross occurences" end up coming true by the end of the book. And they do this as the equivalent of chess, in their head! Compare this with Q's inability to predict or understand human behaviour and his failure trying to manipulate Riker and Picard. Indeed, Q's professed IQ of 2005 (just over 13 times smarter than a clever human) seems rather pedestrian compared to Mentor's intellect!

Is that a sufficient example of a top end sci-fi advanced being?


All very interesting, but none of that proves, or even makes likely that they are more powerful than Q.

tribblenator999

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 3818

Report this Aug. 14 2009, 12:59 am

if any sci-fi even try to make some aliens more powerful than the Q, those writers need to lay off the drugs because it would be ridiculous. The force is ridiculous enough but come on the Q are GOD.

Kdbtrekkin

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 3648

Report this Aug. 14 2009, 1:33 am

Quote (Vorta_the_point @ Aug. 12 2009, 6:47 pm)
Quote (tribblenator999 @ Aug. 12 2009, 3:45 pm)
Quote (LtCmdrHanson @ Aug. 12 2009, 6:35 am)
Quote (Lucifer_ @ Aug. 10 2009, 6:59 pm)
Superior firepower and hyperdrive seal the deal on this one. It's not even close to a fair fight.

Don't even start with the "no lasers" crap. :bored:

really?

It seems like no matter what ST has, SW always seems to 'win' in these vs. threads.

Like the argument that Fett's ship could p'wn a Galaxy class, for example. And now this - a single X-wing could defeat a BoP..sheesh!

it's asinine I tell you.

Let's be fair though - there was a thread only a week or so ago pitting a single Borg Cube against the Death Star; the size and armament difference between a single Cube and a moon-sized space station with a planet destroying superweapon is far greater than the X-wing vs Bird of Prey match-up - and despite this, just over 50% of the people voting thought that the Borg would win!

You have to remember when pitting Star Wars against Star Trek (or at least the Federation against the Republic/Empire) you're trying to compare a pacifistic civilisation with several centuries experience of interstellar travel whose territory covers part of one quarter of the galaxy against a militaristic civilisation with 25 millennia's experience of interstellar travel whose territory covers two thirds of the galaxy; it shouldn't be surprising that Star Wars comes out on top most of the time.

Regarding the Bird of Prey vs X-Wing, the X-Wing is smaller, faster and more manoevrable (not surprisingly, as it's a one man fighter); it has a big advantage in that the Bird of Prey will find it difficult to target due to its evasive capabilities. If the X-Wing has weapons that can damage the Bird of Prey (such as proton torpedos or other anti-capital ship ordinance), then the Bird of Prey is in trouble and may well lose as it's fighting something difficult to hit but which can hurt it in return.

That something smaller but more advanced can destroy something larger but less advanced should not be regarded as improbable in sci-fi - a single Xeelee Nightfigther, a one-man fighter from an advanced race in the Xeelee Sequence series, could defeat the entire Star Wars galaxy; a single Arisian Elder, a member of an advanced race from the Lensman series, could defeat the entire Star Wars and Star Trek galaxies (including the Q) with it's mental powers without even having to move from whatever planet it was on.

I agree for the most part, but I don't believe that about the Arisians(against Q that is) and I have read the whole series, that.

I'd be like taking a runabout(say the Delta Flyer) against a BOP, and still the BOP would win as long as it get's in a couple of hits and they can keep there weapons from being destroyed, but also the size of the ship can denote the size of the weapon and power of that weapon. an x-wing is to small, maybe x-wing vs. delta flyer would be more realistic.

Kdbtrekkin

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 3648

Report this Aug. 14 2009, 1:46 am

Quote (captbates @ Aug. 13 2009, 7:45 pm)
Quote
...

"Five Tellurian calendar years then, from the instant of your passing through the screen of "The Hill" on this persent journey, you will be... allow me, please, a moment of thought... you will be in a barber shop not yet built; the address of which is to be fifteen hundred fifteen Twelfth Avenue, Spokane, Washington, North America, Tellus. The barber's name will be Antonio Carbonero and he will be left-handed. He will be engaged in cutting your hair. Or rather, the actual cutting will have been done and he will be shaving, with a razor trade-marked "Jensen-King-Byrd", the short hairs in front of your left ear. A comparatively small, quadrupedal, greyish-striped entity, of the race called "cat" - a young cat, this one will be, and called Thomas, although actually of the female sex - will jump into your lap, addressing you pleasantly in a language with which you yourself are only partially familiar. You call it mewing and purring, I believe?"

"Yes," the flabbergasted Samms managed to say. "Cats do purr - especially kittens."

"Ah - very good. Never having met a cat personally, I am gratified at your corroboration of my visualisation. This female youth erroneously called Thomas, somewhat careless in computing the elements of her trajectory, will jostle slightly the barber's elbow with her tail; thus causing him to make a slight incision, approximately three millimetres long, parallel to and just above your left cheekbone. At the precise moment in question, the barber will be applying a styptic pencil to the insignificant wound. This forecast is, I trust, sufficiently detailed so that you will have no difficulty in checking its accuracy or lack thereof?"

...

"These that I have mentioned, the gross occurrences, are problems only for inexperienced thinkers," Mentor paid no attention to Samms' determination never to enter that shop. "The real difficulties lie in the fine detail, such as the length, mass and exact place and position of landing, upon apron or floor, of each of your hairs as it is severed. Many factors are involved. Other clients passing by - opening and shutting doors - air currents - sunshine - wind - pressure, temperature, humidity. The exact fashion in which the barber will flick his shears, which in turn depends upon many other factors - what he will have been doing previously, what he will have eaten and drunk, whether or not his home life will have been happy... you little realise, youth, what a priceless opportunity this will be for me to check the accuracy of my visualisation. I shall spend many periods upon the problem. I cannot achieve perfect accuracy, of course. Ninety-nine point nine nines per cent, let us say... or perhaps ten nines... is all that I can reasonably expect..." "



Needless to say, the "gross occurences" end up coming true by the end of the book. And they do this as the equivalent of chess, in their head! Compare this with Q's inability to predict or understand human behaviour and his failure trying to manipulate Riker and Picard. Indeed, Q's professed IQ of 2005 (just over 13 times smarter than a clever human) seems rather pedestrian compared to Mentor's intellect!

Is that a sufficient example of a top end sci-fi advanced being?


All very interesting, but none of that proves, or even makes likely that they are more powerful than Q.

that is Q's I.Q when he was stuck with the Brain the size humans have, remember he couldn't remember everything, who knows what his true I.Q is.

Vorta_the_point

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 624

Report this Aug. 15 2009, 1:28 pm

Quote (captbates @ Aug. 14 2009, 12:45 am)
All very interesting, but none of that proves, or even makes likely that they are more powerful than Q.


It does however prove that they possess greater intellects than the Q - compare Mentor's ability to predict human behaviour, years into the future and in minute detail, with Q's inability to predict or even understand humanity unfolding in front of him and his judgement of humanity being stymied by Picard. Furthermore, their mental abilities allow an Arisian to communicate with, read, take-over or destroy the minds of beings with lesser intellects and willpower; this would mean that they could defeat the Q by simply mind-controlling them (accessing the Continuum would not be a problem as they are able to project their thoughts across dimensions). The Arisians themselves appear to be beings of mental energy and non-corporeal, and are unable to be destroyed by any physical means; only mental assaults can kill them.

While their mental abilities have been cultivated to a greater extent than the Q's, the Arisians don't seem to have yet mastered the manipulation of space and time to the degree the Q have; while possessing some of their capabilities (they can view and "be" anywhere in the universe they choose, can create fully functional mortal bodies for themselves out of molecules and possess dimensional travel), they cannot yet change universal laws or time-travel (the latter of which doesn't appear to be "allowed" in the Lensman universe). However, once making contact with a lesser mind, the Arisians are able to read and commit to memory the entirety of another being's memories; once mental contact is made, the Arisians can assimilate the entire knowledge of the Q.

Whether this makes them, overall, more or less "powerful" than the Q is debatable, but it does allow them at least to be able to defeat the Q, as per tribblenator999's original question.


Quote (captbates @ Aug. 14 2009, 12:45 am)
OK before we go any further are you saying that the Q can only do what we see on screen by using technology?


As well as the existence of Q technology in the form of the Q weapons, that would seem to be the implication of the Q from Death Wish's statement:

"You and your ship seem incredibly powerful to life-forms without your technical expertise. It's no different with us." (emphasis mine)

However, since we don't know much in detail about the Continuum, it's difficult to say exactly how much they rely on it or what form it takes; it is unlikely to be a physical object like we understand them, but might possibly be some sort of energy pattern or higher dimensional construction. Are their powers the result of technology that they "hold" and "take" with them, or is the technology actually a part of them, the corporeal equivalent of bionic implants or biotechnology? Were they "born" with it, a product of the equivalent of genetic manipulation? Their powers are able to be taken away, so any of these theories could be true, but we can't say for certain which (or if any) applies.


Quote (Kdbtrekkin @ Aug. 14 2009, 06:46 am)
that is Q's I.Q when he was stuck with the Brain the size humans have, remember he couldn't remember everything, who knows what his true I.Q is.


I don't think it's ever stated in the episode that Q's knowledge or intellect are actually reduced - infact, Q says the opposite:

"I have no power... But I still have the knowledge... locked in this puny brain. You cannot afford to dismiss that advantage, can you?"


Quote (tribblenator999 @ Aug. 14 2009, 5:59 am)
if any sci-fi even try to make some aliens more powerful than the Q, those writers need to lay off the drugs because it would be ridiculous. The force is ridiculous enough but come on the Q are GOD.


Again, as the Q from Death Wish states, the Q are not omnipotent and shouldn't be thought of as such, they simply appear that way to less advanced civilisations (a belief they try to promote).

PointFiveVulcan

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1565

Report this Aug. 15 2009, 1:56 pm

X-Wing would win because of manueverability.

Aratech

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 609

Report this Aug. 15 2009, 11:47 pm

Quote (tribblenator999 @ Aug. 11 2009, 3:23 pm)
Quote (Ali88 @ Aug. 11 2009, 12:04 pm)
Star Wars is more powerful than Star Trek?


NO IT ISN'T!


The Q Continnium alone is more powerful and much more complex than "The Force" or any other shit in Star Wars

I'm being sarcastic that there are people on this forum saying star wars ships (a fighter) can cream a starship from trek. That's hogwash.


The Q are essentially a nonfactor in versus debates, because they area ¿non factor in Trek itself when it comes to war. ¿They never once intervened to help the Federation, the Klingons, the Romulans, or any other power. ¿More likely they're going to break out popcorn and rootbeer.

As for the fighter, I suppose you believe that a one man Xeelee nightfighter, or a IoM Fighter-Bomber couldn't be a threat to them either, eh? Just because 'they're fighters'?

On topic, I need more details for the X wing. ¿Its lasers aren't powerful enough to get through the BoP's shields (though they are not immune to lasers), though they could likely do a number on the hull. ¿What matters, though, is its six missiles. ¿Torps/missiles range from anti-fighter variants, up to ones strong enough that a handful of them can turn a landmass large enough to sport multiple mountain chains into a pit of bubbling slag and magma. ¿

Quote

if any sci-fi even try to make some aliens more powerful than the Q, those writers need to lay off the drugs because it would be ridiculous. The force is ridiculous enough but come on the Q are GOD.


They Q are not omnipotent by the simple logic of there being more than one of them. They are extremely powerful, gods-among-insects, but they have their limits. ¿We just don't know what they specifically are. ¿There are a number of entities in science fiction who could potentially challenge them. The Xeelee, the Time Lords, and possibly even 40K's God Emperor of Man and the other Gods from that setting.

chr3335

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 7914

Report this Aug. 16 2009, 3:13 am

Don't forget the Ancients for star gate, and the various cosmic beings in the marvel universe (Galacticus, the Celestials, Eternity, ETC).  The only guy I can recall from the DC universe is the other dimenstional dude from superman who's only weakness is saying his name backwards Mr. Mxyzptlk

captbates

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 12614

Report this Aug. 16 2009, 8:08 pm

Quote
"You and your ship seem incredibly powerful to life-forms without your technical expertise. It's no different with us." (emphasis mine)


This Q wanted to die, he wasn't exactly happy with the continuum, but from what we know about the Q from previous encounters it doesn't look like their power comes from technology. (although I can think of good arguments for and against)
The statement could simply just compare life froms at different levels of evolution, where Humans are still using technology, the Q have evolved beyond the need for it, but one day humans will do the same. This is backed up by Q himself from an earlier episode.

captbates

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 12614

Report this Aug. 16 2009, 8:15 pm

Quote (chr3335 @ Aug. 15 2009, 8:13 am)
Don't forget the Ancients for star gate, and the various cosmic beings in the marvel universe (Galacticus, the Celestials, Eternity, ETC). ¿The only guy I can recall from the DC universe is the other dimenstional dude from superman who's only weakness is saying his name backwards Mr. Mxyzptlk

They are indeed powerful, but again none of them posses the ability to just simply create an entirely new reality with a thought, Q can.

captbates

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 12614

Report this Aug. 16 2009, 8:18 pm

Quote
They Q are not omnipotent by the simple logic of there being more than one of them. They are extremely powerful, gods-among-insects, but they have their limits. ?We just don't know what they specifically are. ?There are a number of entities in science fiction who could potentially challenge them. The Xeelee, the Time Lords, and possibly even 40K's God Emperor of Man and the other Gods from that setting.


The same applies here. I'm more familiar with the Time Lords than the other two and I have to ask if your being serious, they couldn't even defeat the Daleks.

Aratech

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 609

Report this Aug. 16 2009, 8:36 pm

Quote (captbates @ Aug. 16 2009, 8:18 pm)
Quote
They Q are not omnipotent by the simple logic of there being more than one of them. They are extremely powerful, gods-among-insects, but they have their limits. ?We just don't know what they specifically are. ?There are a number of entities in science fiction who could potentially challenge them. The Xeelee, the Time Lords, and possibly even 40K's God Emperor of Man and the other Gods from that setting.


The same applies here. I'm more familiar with the Time Lords than the other two and I have to ask if your being serious, they couldn't even defeat the Daleks.

The Time Lords and Dalek's were on equal footing with one another for the most part. ¿We do know that at one point the Timelords apparently traveled back to the start of the universe and forcibly wrote out magic from the equation, because they didn't like it mucking with things. ¿

In terms of their 'physical' capabilities, no, an individual Time Lord cannot defeat a Q. Their societies may be more even than most realize however. ¿

The Xeelee are a race of beings who make fighters and ships out of folded space time (literally, I am not making that up), put a trouble making Humanity into a box and cut them off from the rest of the universe, have existed since the beginning of time itself (fighting a war to determine if the universe would be made of matter or anti-matter), through the heat death of the universe itself, and back again through time travel capabilities (to the point where their military usually won't make a move unless they get confirmation from their future selves that said plan will work) and have some scary quasi-magic capabilities. ¿

Scarier is the fact that they're in a perpetual war with another race that they are actually losing. ¿


The GEOM is the head of mankind in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, to a degree, as he's now confined to a life support system blocking a huge arse portal to Hell. His soul, however, is more powerful than ever. ¿To put it bluntly, even when he was a 'mortal', before the collective prayers of a multi-quadrillion humans large empire began to empower him, and when he'd had an arm torn off, all his blood turned to a psionic poison designed specifically to kill him, and had his throat ripped out, he was still throwing physical blows described as being able to shatter planets and psychic attacks explicitly stated to be more powerful than supernovae. ¿He has since entered what is essentially Hell itself, and taken the fight to the four major Chaos Gods and their minions (said minions often being so powerful that actually opening their mouths and speaking inadvertently destroys several nearby planets), and despite being outnumbered and forced to play by their rules, is ever so slowly winning.

captbates

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 12614

Report this Aug. 16 2009, 8:55 pm

Your still not impressing me.
Q took Voyager back to a point where the universe didn't even exist, that alone seems to out do these others. From what you say they are all limited by the universe itself, Q is not. Manipulation of space/time is nowhere near total control of the universal space time contuniuum (and beyond)

The nature of Q in sci-Fi kinda makes them hard or impossible to defeat, the only way thats gonna happen is if the writers do what they did to the Borg (and 8472)

Recently logged in

Users browsing this forum: jackson5_1988, maserey63, FleetAdmiral_BamBam

Forum Permissions

You cannot post new topics in this forum

You cannot reply to topics in this forum

You cannot delete posts in this forum