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"The Star Trek movies are a flawed bunch"?

NuclearWessels

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 9845

Report this Aug. 10 2009, 9:29 am

Quote (TheDriver @ Aug. 10 2009, 6:41 am)
Storma?!? Placing the original film ... LAST?!?

Oh, man...

I'd place them in the following order:
- Empire Strikes Back
- Star Wars
- Return of the Jedi
- Revenge of the Sith
¿...
¿...
¿...
¿...
- Attack of the Clones
¿...
¿...
- Phantom Menace

Oh, and I forgot to mention in my first post that I DO dig Abrams' new Trek film. It was excellent.

That's pretty much how I'd rank them.

Episodes II and III, IMO, had some of the corniest dialog ever. Especially between Anakin and Padme.  (i.e. the first scene in their apartment in episode III)

Captain_Storma

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 11836

Report this Aug. 10 2009, 9:45 am

Quote (TheDriver @ Aug. 10 2009, 5:41 pm)
Storma?!? Placing the original film ... LAST?!?

Oh, man...

I'd place them in the following order:
- Empire Strikes Back
- Star Wars
- Return of the Jedi
- Revenge of the Sith
¿...
¿...
¿...
¿...
- Attack of the Clones
¿...
¿...
- Phantom Menace

Oh, and I forgot to mention in my first post that I DO dig Abrams' new Trek film. It was excellent.

Jep... not that I do not like it (I love all of them), but it lacks:

- Yoda
- The Emperor
- The epic scope

of the other 5 films.

I keep my fingers crossed for another SE, which will include the scene where Palpatine dissolves the senate... and if they manage to include Yoda into this one... the world will be perfect.

oxonium35

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POSTS: 64

Report this Aug. 10 2009, 9:53 am

Just to add another opinion to this i absolutely love ST and SW, but if i take myself out of that a little and look at it all more objectively i would say that ANH is a reasonable film, it's a classic and certainly for the day effects and makeup were top notch but the story is a little lacking of something to be considered truly great. ESB is a true masterpiece of a film and ROTJ rounds everything off nicely.

I enjoy the prequels and in many ways their stories are so deep in complex that is why they didn't really work, this whole time period really needed to be done in a series of many seasons because there is far too much going on and so everything sort of feels skimmed over and the complex story doesn't make much sense to most people who don't know much about the expanded universe. But they do all come together reasonably well, a few holes here and there......don't get me wrong there were alot of bad things about them too.

The clone wars movie isn't great but after a slow start the series picks up to being very good near the end of the first season.

ST movies on the otherhand (and i'm a bigger ST fan) are a mixed bag to say the least.

TMP for me is pretty boring with an unintersting plot.
TWOK is fine.
TSFS is only enjoyable because of christopher LLoyd.
TVH is a sound movie in terms of script, acting etc but the overall premise is lacking in vision all being set in the films present day. It all takes on a 'novelty episode kind of feel'.  
In contrast to another persons post earlier i sincerely think TFF is one of the worst films ever made. None of it really makes any sense, science is all over the place and it's just appalling from start to finish.
UDC is a sound movie, not much to complain about or praise.
Most people don't like Generations but it's my favourite along with First contact. Generations is (ok i'm a big girl) a very touching movie with the kirk picard stuff and all the action is pretty good.
First contact is a standup action scifi flick, good stuff.
Insurrection is fine, but it's not a movie, it's a long episode that probably would have been considered a good episode if it were just an episode.
Nemesis, nothing really happens....it's not really a plot....there's just stuff that happens that i could have written, no complexities or twists and i hate most of the stuff that does happen
And don't get me started on XI, again one of the worst films ever made.

Trek is a strange beast. SW has always had money thrown at it or people interested in doing things with it. Hence Clone Wars and The Clone Wars and the new live action tv series coming sometime in the next couple of years. And despite what you think of big GL he orchestrates the whole franchise. He makes some big mistakes that i wouldn't go with but at least somebody's there keeping it all cohesive.

Until this new movie Trek has always (correct me if i'm wrong) been done on shoestrings. Movies and series alike. It's impressive that it's still going but the quality of all treks movies and series goes up and down and the canon goes all over the place and they really just need some advisors to help them get through it because these people clearly don't care or can't keep up with it all. I'm sure it would be annoying to all writers of tv shows to have someone going "no you can't do that because it takes weeks to get to Q'onos" and such like or "so what is Red Matter?" or "why would people evolve into lizards?" or "how could a whole civilisation that are very dominant in their region of space become so dominant when their only method of attack against a phaser rifle is to run while shouting Q'apla with a pointy piece of metal"

It just doesn't work, get advisors....yes i'm very reasonably priced :)

rocketscientist

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POSTS: 10054

Report this Aug. 10 2009, 12:03 pm

Quote (TheDriver @ Aug. 10 2009, 8:41 am)
Storma?!? Placing the original film ... LAST?!?

Oh, man...

I'd place them in the following order:
- Empire Strikes Back
- Star Wars
- Return of the Jedi
- Revenge of the Sith
?...
?...
?...
?...
- Attack of the Clones
?...
?...
- Phantom Menace

Oh, and I forgot to mention in my first post that I DO dig Abrams' new Trek film. It was excellent.

I have the same ranking as you, TheDriver. ¿

SW and ESB are classics and right up there in the highest ranked films on rottentomatoes.com. ¿

ROTJ loses some points thanks to those kiddy-ewoks.  But it has those great original characters.  That's one things the prequel lacked.  Han and Chewie and the princess.  The sniping and sparks between Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher, I recall, was something that critics cited as being one of the great elements of the original trilogy that they really missed in the prequels.  They were right imo.  The prequels really could've used those sorts of characters.  Everyone was so straight.  Obi Wan was a bit wily though, but man, Anakin was no Luke and Padme was no Leia.  They were pretty boring.  I just didn't like them or care for them the way I did with the original characters at all.  

ROTS was the only one of the prequels that could stand with the original trilogy's films. ¿Lucas got that one right. ¿

AOTC, well, the whole love story between Anakin and Padme bored me to tears. ¿First, it was creepy because he fell in love with her as a kid. ¿Second, he was really whiny. ¿Geez, what a loser.  Third, they had 0 chemistry. ¿The Obi-Wan stuff and the battle at the end, though, were cool. ¿I'd say AOTC is 1/2 a good movie.

TPM was just terrible. ¿Why Lucas wanted to have his star be a kid, especially one that couldn't act, I don't know. ¿I guess he felt more kids would like it that way. ¿We didn't have that problem with SW, so I don't know why he felt otherwise here. ¿It was a really really stupid decision. ¿All the political machinations were stupid too. ¿Here you have a kiddie hero and politics. ¿What age bracket was this film made for? ¿Then the racist aliens with those Trade guys and Jar Jar, the most unfunny, irritating, and racist character ever created. ¿ Why did Lucas push this idiot on us when we really wanted to see old favorites like Yoda and the droids? ¿

The only thing I liked about TPM was Darth Maul carving into the Jedis at the end. ¿ Go Maul!! ¿

Oh, yeah, the pod race was kind of fun too, being a tribute to Ben-Hur. ¿Unfortunately, the stupidity of a mother letting her only child participate in it kind of detracted from that. ¿See, if he was Luke's age to begin with, that wouldn't have been as much of a problem. ¿Plus, you could start the love story off right since they'd be about the same age, instead of the guy being a child. ¿So so stupid.

And then there's little Annie (he even has a girl's name!;) blowing up the big ship at the end in a space battle. ¿Lame. ¿

TPS the only SW film I don't own. ¿That's how much I dislike it. ¿I don't know what Lucas was thinking.

rocketscientist

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POSTS: 10054

Report this Aug. 10 2009, 12:11 pm

As for the ST films, I don't know if Abrams did say that, as whole, they were a flawed bunch or not, but, well, imo they are.  

I think rottentomatoes.com has it right.  The five fresh ST films, that go from great to good are, in chronological order, TWOK, TSFS, TVH, TUC, FC, and ST XI.  

The mediocre to bad ST films are TMP, TFF, GEN, INS, and NEM.  

It's not really that the even films are the good ones and the odds are the bad ones, since TSFS, and odd film, is a good film (it made rottentomatoes.com 100 best sci-fi film list, along with TWOK, TVH, TUC, and FC), and NEM, an even film, had the lowest box-office of all the films and was the only ST film to not be #1 during its first week.  Also, STXI has obviously been a huge success in terms of both box office and critical reviews and it's an odd film.

Vger23

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POSTS: 6799

Report this Aug. 10 2009, 1:55 pm

Quote (rocketscientist @ Aug. 10 2009, 12:11 pm)
As for the ST films, I don't know if Abrams did say that, as whole, they were a flawed bunch or not, but, well, imo they are. ¿

I think rottentomatoes.com has it right. ¿The five fresh ST films, that go from great to good are, in chronological order, TWOK, TSFS, TVH, TUC, FC, and ST XI. ¿

The mediocre to bad ST films are TMP, TFF, GEN, INS, and NEM. ¿

It's not really that the even films are the good ones and the odds are the bad ones, since TSFS, and odd film, is a good film (it made rottentomatoes.com 100 best sci-fi film list, along with TWOK, TVH, TUC, and FC), and NEM, an even film, had the lowest box-office of all the films and was the only ST film to not be #1 during its first week. ¿Also, STXI has obviously been a huge success in terms of both box office and critical reviews and it's an odd film.

Most of the weaker ST films were weighed down by the following common factors:

1. Restricted budgets based on greedy Paramount marketing models and projections

2. Taking more of a "please the fans" approach rather than just making an entertaining movie

3. Too many fingers in the pie. All the weaker movies have story inputs / comments / ultimatums from the studio, the actors, the producers, the director, etc. etc. etc. They were always way too busy trying to please everyone and get everyone's ideas considered. TFF, GEN, and INS really suffered from this in particular.

WkdYngMan

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POSTS: 3951

Report this Aug. 10 2009, 3:23 pm

Quote (oxonium35 @ Aug. 10 2009, 9:53 am)
And don't get me started on XI, again one of the worst films ever made.

Please don't, since it isn't.

SpaceClown77

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POSTS: 337

Report this Aug. 10 2009, 3:37 pm

Quote (WkdYngMan @ Aug. 10 2009, 3:23 pm)
Quote (oxonium35 @ Aug. 10 2009, 9:53 am)
And don't get me started on XI, again one of the worst films ever made.

Please don't, since it isn't.

Do you always have to be a smartass? It's her opinion for bloody sake.

Vger23

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 6799

Report this Aug. 10 2009, 3:41 pm

Quote (WkdYngMan @ Aug. 10 2009, 3:23 pm)
Quote (oxonium35 @ Aug. 10 2009, 9:53 am)
And don't get me started on XI, again one of the worst films ever made.

Please don't, since it isn't.

No kidding, right?


WORST MOVIE EVER...

Ali88

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 889

Report this Aug. 10 2009, 3:44 pm

Quote (SpaceClown77 @ Aug. 10 2009, 3:37 pm)
Quote (WkdYngMan @ Aug. 10 2009, 3:23 pm)
Quote (oxonium35 @ Aug. 10 2009, 9:53 am)
And don't get me started on XI, again one of the worst films ever made.

Please don't, since it isn't.

Do you always have to be a smartass? It's her opinion for bloody sake.

True but XI is not one of the worst films ever made

There are plenty of movies far worse than XI (Star Wars episode I and the clone wars for example)

Vger23

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 6799

Report this Aug. 10 2009, 3:54 pm

Quote (Ali88 @ Aug. 10 2009, 3:44 pm)
Quote (SpaceClown77 @ Aug. 10 2009, 3:37 pm)
Quote (WkdYngMan @ Aug. 10 2009, 3:23 pm)
Quote (oxonium35 @ Aug. 10 2009, 9:53 am)
And don't get me started on XI, again one of the worst films ever made.

Please don't, since it isn't.

Do you always have to be a smartass? It's her opinion for bloody sake.

True but XI is not one of the worst films ever made

There are plenty of movies far worse than XI (Star Wars episode I and the clone wars for example)

Or, perhaps even more importantly:



or

Ali88

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 889

Report this Aug. 10 2009, 3:55 pm

Quote (Vger23 @ Aug. 10 2009, 3:54 pm)
Quote (Ali88 @ Aug. 10 2009, 3:44 pm)
Quote (SpaceClown77 @ Aug. 10 2009, 3:37 pm)
Quote (WkdYngMan @ Aug. 10 2009, 3:23 pm)
Quote (oxonium35 @ Aug. 10 2009, 9:53 am)
And don't get me started on XI, again one of the worst films ever made.

Please don't, since it isn't.

Do you always have to be a smartass? It's her opinion for bloody sake.

True but XI is not one of the worst films ever made

There are plenty of movies far worse than XI (Star Wars episode I and the clone wars for example)

Or, perhaps even more importantly:



or


I can't argue with you there

Ali88

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 889

Report this Aug. 10 2009, 3:57 pm

Quote (Vger23 @ Aug. 10 2009, 3:41 pm)
Quote (WkdYngMan @ Aug. 10 2009, 3:23 pm)
Quote (oxonium35 @ Aug. 10 2009, 9:53 am)
And don't get me started on XI, again one of the worst films ever made.

Please don't, since it isn't.

No kidding, right?


WORST MOVIE EVER...

Actually I wonder what Comic Book Guy's opinion would be on XI

WkdYngMan

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 3951

Report this Aug. 10 2009, 4:01 pm

Quote (SpaceClown77 @ Aug. 10 2009, 3:37 pm)
Quote (WkdYngMan @ Aug. 10 2009, 3:23 pm)
Quote (oxonium35 @ Aug. 10 2009, 9:53 am)
And don't get me started on XI, again one of the worst films ever made.

Please don't, since it isn't.

Do you always have to be a smartass?

Do you?

Vger23

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 6799

Report this Aug. 10 2009, 4:04 pm

Quote (Ali88 @ Aug. 10 2009, 3:57 pm)
Quote (Vger23 @ Aug. 10 2009, 3:41 pm)
Quote (WkdYngMan @ Aug. 10 2009, 3:23 pm)
Quote (oxonium35 @ Aug. 10 2009, 9:53 am)
And don't get me started on XI, again one of the worst films ever made.

Please don't, since it isn't.

No kidding, right?


WORST MOVIE EVER...

Actually I wonder what Comic Book Guy's opinion would be on XI

It would be "worst movie ever."

Comic book guy is a pretentious, pseudo-intellectual, over-compensating stereotype of the picky, impossible to please fan.

I doubt there would be any genre movie he would not judge as "worst movie ever."

From Wikipedia:

The eighth season episode "The Itchy & Scratchy & Poochie Show" is largely seen as a satire of the "hardcore fans" that make up the newsgroup, as well as a response to the viewer backlash and obsession with internal consistency those fans commonly express.[8] When Comic Book Guy sees the Poochie episode, he immediately goes on the Internet and writes, ¿Worst episode ever¿ on a message board; a commentary on how the active audience nit-picks the episode. The writers respond by using the voice of Bart Simpson:[14]

¿ Comic Book Guy: Last night's Itchy & Scratchy was, without a doubt, the worst episode ever. Rest assured I was on the Internet within minutes registering my disgust throughout the world.
Bart: Hey, I know it wasn¿t great, but what right do you have to complain?
Comic Book Guy: As a loyal viewer, I feel they owe me.
Bart: What? They¿re giving you thousands of hours of entertainment for free. What could they possibly owe you? If anything, you owe them.
Comic Book Guy: [hesitantly] ...Worst episode ever.



Has a familliar ring...

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