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"The Star Trek movies are a flawed bunch"?

Ali88

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Report this Aug. 09 2009, 3:48 pm

Abrams and the crew were saying that they were hoping XI would be the best one since TWOK cause they feel the trek movies as a whole are a pretty flawed bunch

But then again, the Star Wars movies are a flawed bunch too.

The three prequels and the clone wars movie are terrible, simply terrible. They're so bad, they make Star Trek V look like "Blade Runner"

Return of the Jedi was a huge disappointment, the original Star Wars movie was good but not great

The Empire strikes back was the only real great star wars movie but even that movie had it's flaws.


I don't think the trek movies are that flawed.

I thought Star Trek 1,2,3,4,6,8,11 were great. 7,9,10 were good and 5 was OK overall

Vger23

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Report this Aug. 09 2009, 3:57 pm

There's a lot of opinion mixed in here.

Where did Abrams say that about Star Trek films?

Narada

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Report this Aug. 09 2009, 4:01 pm

I feel there are flaws in the Star Trek movies and Star Wars movies. Any franchise with over 5 movies is bound to have a few clunkers.

SpaceClown77

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Report this Aug. 09 2009, 4:11 pm

I don't think the Trek films are that flawed. As a franchise the quality of the films are pretty good over a span of 11 films. Not every ST film is great, we all know this, and we can't expect every film to be great, but at least none qualify for the award of WORST FILM EVER cue *crazy laugh* I think.

Heck, the Bond films fair worse(I'm a huge Bond fan, but still a bigger Trek fan). There's some duds in that franchise believe me.

Star Trek is one of the most consistent franchises out there.

Vger23

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Report this Aug. 09 2009, 4:19 pm

It's true, but you wouldn't know that by listening to the fans. Pretty much any movie that doesn't meet the exact expectations are usually declared "the worst film in the history of cinema."

SpaceClown77

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Report this Aug. 09 2009, 4:49 pm

Quote (Vger23 @ Aug. 09 2009, 4:19 pm)
It's true, but you wouldn't know that by listening to the fans. Pretty much any movie that doesn't meet the exact expectations are usually declared "the worst film in the history of cinema."

All fans are hard to please. Whether your're a Bond fan, Trek fan or Indy fan(the last film was torn to shreds by fans, I thought it was okay.)they all have high expectations on the things they love, rightfully so I suppose.

And sometimes, most cases maybe, those high expectations are not met, which causes the fans to go nuts. Then we have the ol' ''killed the franchise'' rant. Anyway...

You know, the word ''fan'' is short for fanatic, so there you are. That kinda explains it all.

Captain_Storma

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Report this Aug. 09 2009, 4:53 pm

Quote (Ali88 @ Aug. 10 2009, 12:48 am)
Abrams and the crew were saying that they were hoping XI would be the best one since TWOK cause they feel the trek movies as a whole are a pretty flawed bunch

But then again, the Star Wars movies are a flawed bunch too.

The three prequels and the clone wars movie are terrible, simply terrible. They're so bad, they make Star Trek V look like "Blade Runner"

Return of the Jedi was a huge disappointment, the original Star Wars movie was good but not great

The Empire strikes back was the only real great star wars movie but even that movie had it's flaws.


I don't think the trek movies are that flawed.

I thought Star Trek 1,2,3,4,6,8,11 were great. 7,9,10 were good and 5 was OK overall

Dude... honestly... I respect every opinion, but to call the later SW films like that...

Sorry.

I guess that's with casual viewers. Especially the prequels tell an intense, deep story in several layers.
You really need to watch the whole saga, not once, twice but multiple times to get the whole picture.

Heck even TCW fits into this picture.

If the respect for canon in TREK would be like it is in STAR WARS. Nobody would have a problem with it... IF...

The original STAR WARS good, not great? What planet do you live on.

STAR WARS pretty much is the mother of modern filmmaking. It was outstanding, terrific, a God-d@mn masterpiece.

THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK is THE definition of a sequel. Every sequel has to measure itself with this movie.

Maybe you should stop talking about things you have no knowledge about... or at least post an "In My Opinion" in such statements before you make yourself ridiculous.

Ali88

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Report this Aug. 09 2009, 5:44 pm

Quote (Captain_Storma @ Aug. 09 2009, 4:53 pm)
Quote (Ali88 @ Aug. 10 2009, 12:48 am)
Abrams and the crew were saying that they were hoping XI would be the best one since TWOK cause they feel the trek movies as a whole are a pretty flawed bunch

But then again, the Star Wars movies are a flawed bunch too.

The three prequels and the clone wars movie are terrible, simply terrible. They're so bad, they make Star Trek V look like "Blade Runner"

Return of the Jedi was a huge disappointment, the original Star Wars movie was good but not great

The Empire strikes back was the only real great star wars movie but even that movie had it's flaws.


I don't think the trek movies are that flawed.

I thought Star Trek 1,2,3,4,6,8,11 were great. 7,9,10 were good and 5 was OK overall

Dude... honestly... I respect every opinion, but to call the later SW films like that...

Sorry.

I guess that's with casual viewers. Especially the prequels tell an intense, deep story in several layers.
You really need to watch the whole saga, not once, twice but multiple times to get the whole picture.

Heck even TCW fits into this picture.

If the respect for canon in TREK would be like it is in STAR WARS. Nobody would have a problem with it... IF...

The original STAR WARS good, not great? What planet do you live on.

STAR WARS pretty much is the mother of modern filmmaking. It was outstanding, terrific, a God-d@mn masterpiece.

THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK is THE definition of a sequel. Every sequel has to measure itself with this movie.

Maybe you should stop talking about things you have no knowledge about... or at least post an "In My Opinion" in such statements before you make yourself ridiculous.

yeah ok I apologise

I was too harsh on Star Wars

4 and 5 are classics but Return of the Jedi was disappointing

The first part with rescuing Han Solo was overlong, unexciting and even a little bit pointless to the movie.

Solo wasn't that much use in the movie afterwards, he pretty much just fought storm troopers and bummed the ewok creatures on Endor.

He should have died on board the Millenium Falcon
And after Vader died, Luke just takes his body down to Endor and burns his body.

Why didn't he take his body back to Tatoonie, give him a proper burial in front of the twin suns?

Captain_Storma

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Report this Aug. 09 2009, 6:07 pm

Well... okay...

But have to tell you IMO RETURN OF THE JEDI beats IV and V.

The story is epic and most importantly it is focused on Vader. The inner struggle he goes through... I mean we only see a mask, but you can read all that in his masked face.

I love the climax with Vader/Luke and the Emperor. Along with The fight between Obi-Wan and Anakin in REVENGE OF THE SITH, this one IMO is the strongest of the whole saga.
I love the space battle over Endor.

And I love the ending. The "Victory Celebration" composed by John Williams is my favorite cue of all time. The epic conclusion of an epic saga.

Along with III this one is my favorite STAR WARS part (although the distance to the other films in the ranking is close to Zero, since it is all one big story and I love all 6 of them).

TheDriver

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Report this Aug. 09 2009, 9:17 pm

Quote (SpaceClown77 @ Aug. 09 2009, 7:11 pm)
I don't think the Trek films are that flawed. As a franchise the quality of the films are pretty good over a span of 11 films.

Star Trek is one of the most consistent franchises out there.

Wow, I could not disagree more.

Although I'm a diehard Trek fan, I can also easily say every film since Star Trek IV has been well below par. In fact, First Contact was the only one since The Voyage Home to provide a truly thrilling theater experience.

The Undiscovered Country is the one that truly baffles me. It seems most Trek fans like this film, yet I have to wonder if that's because it's actually a great flick (I doubt it) or because it features Klingons, gives Sulu his own command, and is the swan song for the original crew. Personally, I think it's a campy, simplistic "murder mystery" with WAY too many plotholes.

The less said about The Final Frontier, Generations, Insurrection, and Nemesis, the better.

And honestly, as much as I like VOY and ENT? Those shows can't hold a candle to TOS, TNG, and DS9. And I don't even think TNG is all that great when it comes to quality television; I think it just happened to be incredibly unique for its time (i.e., TOS themes translated for the '80s, primetime science fiction series, aired on stations that still broadcast syndicated TOS as opposed to one of the major networks, etc.)

TheDriver

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Report this Aug. 09 2009, 9:57 pm

Quote (Captain_Storma @ Aug. 09 2009, 9:07 pm)
Well... okay...

But have to tell you IMO RETURN OF THE JEDI beats IV and V.

The story is epic and most importantly it is focused on Vader. The inner struggle he goes through... I mean we only see a mask, but you can read all that in his masked face.

I love the climax with Vader/Luke and the Emperor. Along with The fight between Obi-Wan and Anakin in REVENGE OF THE SITH, this one IMO is the strongest of the whole saga.
I love the space battle over Endor.

And I love the ending. The "Victory Celebration" composed by John Williams is my favorite cue of all time. The epic conclusion of an epic saga.

Along with III this one is my favorite STAR WARS part (although the distance to the other films in the ranking is close to Zero, since it is all one big story and I love all 6 of them).

The original trilogy is clearly superior to the prequels. However, Revenge of the Sith is an excellent film.

In fact, if one had only viewed the original trilogy and then watched ROTS? That individual would not be left behind.

Anakin a great star pilot? Check.
Obi-Wan a mentor to Anakin? Check.
Fighting in the Clone Wars? Check.
Senator Palpatine becomes the Emperor? Check.
Yoda goes into hiding? Check.
Jedi wiped out? Check.
Birth of Luke and Leia? Check.
Artoo and Threepio end up on Captain Antilles' ship? Check.

Seriously, if you watch the prequels all in a row (I've done this a few times), they do, in fact, tell one big story. But from the POV of someone who saw the original Star Wars films in the theater as they were released? The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones feel like "filler." And provide way too many details that really aren't necessary.

Don't get me wrong. I actually kinda dig the prequels (and the various Clone Wars animated features). But they're simply not as strong as the originals because many of the archetypes are missing. Especially absent is the Han Solo "worldly protector with a heart of gold who provides support for the budding hero in his quest." And with a lack of a "Solo" in the films, you lose A LOT of humor and charm. (Jar Jar and the droids are simply childish comic relief.)

This was a problem with Return of the Jedi, IMO. While it's great the story focuses on the "kid with potential" truly becoming "the hero" and seeking a different, more heroic path than his father ... all the while trying to redeem his father... Well, this means the story is really only about Luke and Vader. And every one of the other characters gets the shaft. Leia doesn't do much except find out she's the sister of Luke. And Han, who's spent the past two movies trying to help Luke reach his potential, has nothing to do as Luke - in the beginning of the film - has already reached his potential. Also, Han has already won the princess right from the start. And he never once pilots the Millennium Falcon in ROTJ - an absolute travesty. (Guess you can tell who my favorite Star Wars character is...)

So anyway, ROTJ is a good film, but it left way too many other characters and archetypes "dangling."

The original Star Wars is an absolute classic, not for its space battles and sci-fi concepts, but because it was one of the first films to place all of the truly great archetypes together - "the wise mentor," "the kid with potential," "the sassy princess," "the smart-aleck older brother with the heart of gold," "the dog," "the bumbling clowns," "the sadistic villain," etc. And it just hit all the right beats for an fantasy-action flick. Lucas even managed to tie together every religion in his Jedi teachings, creating a unified spiritual experience for moviegoers.

Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back are absolutely brilliant (Empire due in part to its unpredictable, yet completely logical follow-ups for the Star Wars archetypes). Return of the Jedi's pretty good, but can't match the originality or the character development of the first two films. And Revenge of the Sith is also quite good, mainly because we watch as a "hero" falls and causes all of the other "dominoes" to fall as well, perfectly setting up the events of the original trilogy ... all the while providing a pretty good tragedy in its own right with some fairly nuanced characters. (The acting is another matter entirely. Ha.)

Anyway, I'll stop my rambling now...

rocketscientist

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Report this Aug. 09 2009, 11:02 pm

Quote (Captain_Storma @ Aug. 09 2009, 6:07 pm)
Well... okay...

But have to tell you IMO RETURN OF THE JEDI beats IV and V.

ROTJ better than SW and ESB?!??!  

No Way!!

MrSpock44

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Report this Aug. 10 2009, 12:55 am

I think some Trek fans feel dismiss the Trek movies a little too easily.  No, not all of them are great, but I think only a few of them are bad.  It's hard enough to make three good movies in a series (Lord of the Rings may be the only trilogy I can think of where all three are of comparable quality), let alone make 11 great movies.  So no, not all Star Trek movies are great, but so many movie series seem old and tired by the 2nd or 3rd or 4th sequel (Star Wars, Terminator, Alien, Godfather, the list goes on) makes it pretty impressive that the 11th film of the franchise was actually good.

 For Trek vs. Wars... I don't think they need to be compared, but I disagree with those who would say that they can't be compared.  Sure, Star Wars movies are bigger in scope with much bigger budgets and are more important to cinema and all of that.  Yet, in some cases I think the dialogue and writing is better in some Star Trek movies than some of the bad stuff in the Wars movies (yes, including the original trilogy), which had some pretty bad writing there.  Acting is... comparable in some places, I'd say the acting of Patrick Stewart or the acting in The Wrath of Khan beats the acting of Jake Lloyd or the acting in The Attack of the Clones.  I'm not saying the Star Trek movies are actually better than Star Wars (I'd say the original trilogy beats any three movies Trek has, but Trek has more good movies), just comparable.

Captain_Storma

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Report this Aug. 10 2009, 4:45 am

Quote (rocketscientist @ Aug. 10 2009, 8:02 am)
Quote (Captain_Storma @ Aug. 09 2009, 6:07 pm)
Well... okay...

But have to tell you IMO RETURN OF THE JEDI beats IV and V.

ROTJ better than SW and ESB?!??! ¿

No Way!!

By mere nanometers... but yeah.

My ranking would be:

1. ROTS
2. ROTJ
3. TESB
4. AOTC
5. TPM
6. ANH

But as said... mere nanometers.

I have always been more of a Vader, Obi-Wan, Yoda fan, and really never understood the people's fascination for Luke, Han and the rest of the OT heroes.

When I was a kid, I always wanted the Empire to win in ROTJ ;)

Vader is IMO one of the most fascinating characters in movie history, his fall (ROTS) and redemption (ROTJ) are IMO the strongest parts of the saga.

TheDriver

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Report this Aug. 10 2009, 8:41 am

Storma?!? Placing the original film ... LAST?!?

Oh, man...

I'd place them in the following order:
- Empire Strikes Back
- Star Wars
- Return of the Jedi
- Revenge of the Sith
 ...
 ...
 ...
 ...
- Attack of the Clones
 ...
 ...
- Phantom Menace

Oh, and I forgot to mention in my first post that I DO dig Abrams' new Trek film. It was excellent.

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