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Why could't JJ get the basics right?

Narada

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POSTS: 4010

Report this Aug. 06 2009, 1:43 am

Quote (Cynic321 @ Aug. 05 2009, 1:28 am)
Quote (Captain_Storma @ Aug. 04 2009, 2:06 pm)
Quote (starbase63 @ Aug. 04 2009, 10:22 pm)
Quote (WkdYngMan @ Aug. 04 2009, 1:16 pm)
Quote (Captain_Storma @ Aug. 04 2009, 10:46 am)
If Orci and Krutzman did their job well, they would simply rename "their" Delta Vega into: 40 Eridani A III (Starcharts page 58). And nobody would be angry...

The fact anyone is "angry" over such a stupid issue is more of a reflection of that individual person.

I don't know about "angry" but it just gets me when people don't just take the one extra step to do something right...in anything, not just pertaining to Trek facts...

:logical:

Yeah exactly... maybe it is just me (I am a perfectionalist, believe me sometimes it is really frustrating to be one), but IMO one have to research to the bottom of things when one wants to do something right.

IMO it is just not correct to oversee such "details". And there was not much research needed. Just one simple click on the net: Checking out if Vulcan had another planet in the system.

Yup.

I'm SO with you.

But first: It's a decent movie. So you gushing defenders can give it a rest.

It boils down to peeves. Everybody's got peeves when it comes to stuff. Movies, driving, people's behavior in the checkout line, w/e. EVERYBODY.

Shoehorning 'Delta Vega' into the plot to bribe the old pharts with is one of mine. Cramming tribbles into the background. Killing redshirt Irishmen to make way for Scotsmen, having Kirk get his a$$ handed to him in every fight scene.

All nods to TOS in one fashion or another. I'd have much rather there were a less nodding and a little more faithfulness to rules already established. A little more substance over style.

Transporters work at orbital distances, not halfway across the quadrant. (who needs starships anymore if you can beam to hell and gone?)

Timelines can be altered and fixed, resetting the original timeline (why bother going back in time to 'fix' anything at all if the future you come from was unchanged by the past being futzed with?)

(I know, I know, SpockPrime didn't deliberately go back in time in the movie-I'm asking a general question. Why did the TOS crew let Edith Keeler die? Why was it so important to get Christopher back into the c.ockpit so he could sire a son who'd lead an interplanetary expedition?) None of those changes should have changed the 'current' TOS timeline, right? Why'd Picard give a ?soupy $hit what the Borg did when they opened up the time portal in First Contact?)

Genetics matter enough to pass laws about, but not enough to make Spock Prime ask, "Who are you and why are you pretending to be my short friend Jim Kirk?"

Starships have brigs. Why? When you can make somebody 'walk the plank' to an iceplanet?

Just some simple logical disconnects that drag my a$$ right out of a movie and make me go, "WTF was that?"

And as far as we kvetching, b1tching, old, fans go; yeah...we've got issues.

And so do you or you wouldn't be here in the first place.

:p

Some good points !

;)  :cool:

WkdYngMan

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POSTS: 3951

Report this Aug. 06 2009, 3:08 am

Quote (Cynic321 @ Aug. 05 2009, 1:28 am)
Transporters work at orbital distances, not halfway across the quadrant. (who needs starships anymore if you can beam to hell and gone?)

Who needs people when the ships can be ran by computer?

Cynic321

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POSTS: 8588

Report this Aug. 06 2009, 3:17 am

Quote (WkdYngMan @ Aug. 06 2009, 2:08 am)
Quote (Cynic321 @ Aug. 05 2009, 1:28 am)
Transporters work at orbital distances, not halfway across the quadrant. (who needs starships anymore if you can beam to hell and gone?)

Who needs people when the ships can be ran by computer?

People do.

No ten unmanned space launches get 1/4 the news coverage of one manned one.

Press coverage = public interest and more is better. Better for the bottom line.

"No bucks, no Buck Rogers".

Jepoy2

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POSTS: 322

Report this Aug. 06 2009, 5:01 am

Therefore, Spock's night sky is more romantic than Uhura's (our's) for his has the T'Khut and it's moon.

Kirk_vs_Kahn

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POSTS: 319

Report this Aug. 06 2009, 5:55 am

Quote (Captain_Storma @ Aug. 05 2009, 11:18 am)
Quote (rocketscientist @ Aug. 05 2009, 10:16 am)
Y'know, it's possible that Vulcan is part of a double planet system with another planet named Delta Vega. ?

That would explain both Spock's statement that Vulcan has no moons and the world seen in the original version of TMP.

Starcharts page 58:

Vulcan has a twin planet, which IS NOT called Delta Vega (Delta Vega is seen in the pilot episode of TOS WNMHGB).

It is called 40 Eriadu III

Is 40 Eriadu III ever mentioned in any TV show/Film? If not, then the writers can do what they want. Even call the planet delta vega... yes, it was in WNMHGB, and far away, but hey. I can live with that.

frimmel

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POSTS: 350

Report this Aug. 06 2009, 8:48 am

Quote (jn91669 @ Aug. 05 2009, 4:01 pm)
If this movie is in deed a reboot there is no need to research anything because a reboot in definition means to ignore things from the past and rewrite the series.

But it isn't a reboot is it? By their own lame attempts at explanation they are bound to at least some of the rules from the past. They aren't bound to the events but they are bound to the physics and astronomy and some semblance of science. But they don't want to obey the old rules and at the same time didn't seem to want to create new ones.

Canon is a double edged sword. On the one hand it makes a consistent and rich universe and keeps the writers 'honest' it is the rules and structure and goal posts. On the other hand it ties their hands when they create something that doesn't quite work or hadn't been thought thru.

I don't think most fans mind a little retcon if it tells a good story, cleans something up or adds a new dimension to a charater without creating some sort of contradiction or fundamental change. (Highlander Season 3: The Samurai)

But it can't be willy nilly or because they wrote themselves into a corner. (Alias pretty much all of Season 3) And it has to be kept to a minimum and they had to have a good track record of keeping with canon in the first place.

A writer can't continually move the goal posts.

It seemed to me that JJ Trek neither threw out the old rulebook, followed it or created a new one.

Vger23

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POSTS: 6799

Report this Aug. 06 2009, 11:05 am

"What's seen on screen is canon."

Well, we've seen two on-screen images that demonstrate that there are clearly celestial bodies that pass well within visual range of Vulcan. One was in Trek XI (view from said disputed plantet) and the other was in TMP:



It doesn't mean that they are moons, so no contradiction to what Spock said in TOS.

It doesn't mean that it's the same "Delta Vega" that was depicted in WNMHGB, as it is ENTIRELY possible that planet names are repeated in this vast universe, just like town names are repeated on this little speck we call Earth (as another poster so deftly pointed out).

So, is it somewhat questionable? Yup. Is it significant to the point of being a reasonable cause for concern and/or basing your entire opinion of a movie no? Nope.

Carry on.

jn91669

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POSTS: 720

Report this Aug. 06 2009, 11:36 am

Quote (frimmel @ Aug. 06 2009, 8:48 am)
Quote (jn91669 @ Aug. 05 2009, 4:01 pm)
If this movie is in deed a reboot there is no need to research anything because a reboot in definition means to ignore things from the past and rewrite the series.

But it isn't a reboot is it? By their own lame attempts at explanation they are bound to at least some of the rules from the past. They aren't bound to the events but they are bound to the physics and astronomy and some semblance of science. But they don't want to obey the old rules and at the same time didn't seem to want to create new ones.

Canon is a double edged sword. On the one hand it makes a consistent and rich universe and keeps the writers 'honest' it is the rules and structure and goal posts. On the other hand it ties their hands when they create something that doesn't quite work or hadn't been thought thru.

I don't think most fans mind a little retcon if it tells a good story, cleans something up or adds a new dimension to a charater without creating some sort of contradiction or fundamental change. (Highlander Season 3: The Samurai)

But it can't be willy nilly or because they wrote themselves into a corner. (Alias pretty much all of Season 3) And it has to be kept to a minimum and they had to have a good track record of keeping with canon in the first place.

A writer can't continually move the goal posts.

It seemed to me that JJ Trek neither threw out the old rulebook, followed it or created a new one.

I couldn't agree more except for Alias and that is only because I never watched it.

I only brought that point up because so many have pointed out that this new movie is a reboot and if in fact it is then anything goes. The writers can take liberties with what ever they wish.

As for their lame attempts at explanations I think what you are seeing is back peddling. Their excuses are meant to shut people (fans) up, but some were valid(the ones that pertain to the cutting room floor).

As for moving the goal post I think you will be seeing much more of that in film making. We have pushed the envelope in so many directions that in order to keep the mass public entertained they are going to have to push it even further.

Just saw GiJoe previews and watching the previews I thought "eh" seen it all before the action and the special effects. When we are bombarded with these images constantly in movies, tv, and video games they get stale. They becom the same ole' same ole'. A good sci-fi movie needs to have a balance of FX and action with a solid story line for me.

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