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Is TVH the most dated Trek film?

stovokor2000

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POSTS: 2683

Report this Aug. 22 2009, 6:38 pm

Quote (lostshaker @ Aug. 22 2009, 5:17 pm)
It's stated in both the Star Trek Encyclopedia,


Actually....No it wasnt.

The exact quote from the Star Trek Encyclopedia is....

"much of Earth reverted to a barbaric state"

Thats "much of earth" not the whole of humanity.

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and in "Encounter at Farpoint".


And again.....No.

If this was baseball that would be your 3rd strike.

The only thing said in "Encounter at Farpoint" was Troi calling Q and the others "Barbarians"

Quote (lostshaker @ Aug. 20 2009, 3:18 pm)
It's been said World War III devastated the entire planet and that humanity reverted to barbarism.


"Humanity reverted to barbarism" not much of earth, not some countries.

And in such a context Barbarism would refer to a condition to which a society or civilization may be reduced after a societal collapse, relative to an earlier period of cultural or technological advancement.

And so far you havent backed up your claim that it was said.

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This sense of barbarism is established and shown in "Encounter at Farpoint" as talked about by Picard and Q. .


Your reaching and stretching the definition of the word.

Technology was still in use, there was still a form of social government in play....even if corrupted.

Thats hardly a state of Barbarism.

Unregistered_Guest

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Report this Aug. 23 2009, 5:57 am

Dang, LS and S 2000, you guys are amazingly well versed in ST lore.

stovokor2000

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Report this Aug. 23 2009, 9:27 am

Quote (Unregistered_Guest @ Aug. 23 2009, 5:57 am)
Dang, LS and S 2000, you guys are amazingly well versed in ST lore.

Thank you very much.

lostshaker

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Report this Aug. 23 2009, 5:20 pm

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The Star Trek Encyclopedia is considered a "GUIDE to CANON" but is not canon itself.

It contains official material but not everything with in the book is an "official documentation" of the series and the universe it takes place in.

First, the Encyclopedia I'm referencing is the updated and expanded edition (the 3rd edition with soft cover than came after the hard cover updated edition). Secondly, I referred to it as official documentation, not cannon (quite a bit of difference in my mind), and I am aware that there is also speculation within the book itself. However, the speculation is italicized and easily separable from the observations. The quote you yourself drew from was not italicized.

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You take the 2nd definition of the word and try to make it fit your origin statement.

I had another dictionary at home that I checked, which only had one definition, but read almost identically to the 2nd definition on the merriam-website site. That is why I used it, for others ease of reference.
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And so far you havent backed up your claim that it was said.

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In the mid and later half of the 21st century the military controlled their soldiers with drugs; lawyers were killed, which led to "guilty until proven innocent" because bringing the innocent to trial wasn't considered fair. Last time I checked this wasn't acceptable by today's standards.

"Encounter at Farpoint" Q sports examples of various military attires used in human history. One of which is a 22nd Century Soldier, later to be seen in Q's courtroom again. Q states:

"Rapid Progress... to where humans learned to control their military with drugs." (And Q even "snorts" the drug a minute later in the scene.)
Q doesn't say "some humans, or few humans". He says very broadly humans (much like how my comment was made and intended to be taken).

Picard, "We humans know our past even when we're ashamed of it. I recognize this court system as the one that agreed with that line from Shakespeare - "Kill all the lawyers!"
Q: "Which was done."
Picard: "Leading to the rule guilty until proven innocent."
(Encounter at Farpoint)

Guilty until proven innocent is very backwards from today's standard, which fits into the "bardwardness" of part one of the definition you chose:

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1 a : a barbarian or barbarous social or intellectual condition : backwardness b : the practice or display of barbarian acts, attitudes, or ideas.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/barbarism[/QUOTE]

The Mid 22nd Century Soldier Yar defeated in the courtroom was killed for being out of order. It's safe to presume that this is an accurate detail Q brought from the courts of 2079 to help further prove his point.

"This is a court of 2079 by which time rapid progress had caused all united earth nonsense to be abolished."

Troi did in fact call Q a barbarian as you pointed out. But his actions were consistent within the court system depicted and the previously presented treatment/death of the Mid 22nd Century Soldier. It's not unreasonable, given the depiction of the court, that many judges of the time acted similarly, which would further Q's point (and Data even said Q's depiction was "...very, very accurate."). Troi's statement can be interpreted as a mirror for the time period. Any judge who acted similarly could be seen as a barbarian.

Given first contact in 2063, and the assumption that humans began to progress after it, the existence of these courts in 2079 shows that humanity/earth had been severely set back and still had a long way to go even as late as 2079. Even if this court is the last of its kind, things would have been far worse a decade or two earlier.

"Very few governments left" is a quote from Riker in FC. But we don't know which governments. It's unclear if the American Government survived. If you take Cochrane as an example, there seemed to be no governmental oversight (State or Federal) as to their warp program - presumably the most advanced technology on the planet. If a nearby government existed, I doubt they'd let a warp program go unsupervised, especially considering the power that could present individuals or governments (remember Admiral Dougherty in INS telling Picard, "Warp Drive transformed Romulan thugs into an Empire.") Lily told Picard, "It took me six months just to scrounge up enough titanium to build a four meter ####pit." This suggests that Cochrane and Lily had to acquire resources themselves because they were receiving no governmental aid or supervision, which further suggests that they had access to this missile silo for lack of security and authority. However, I equally admit it's a project that may have been started just before WWIII. There's not enough information to side either way on it, but had the government been involved, isn't  it more likely that the government would have built a prototype warp ship - dedicated to test out warp drive, rather than a Saturn missile?

lostshaker

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Report this Aug. 23 2009, 5:22 pm

Something weird happened with that whole quote bit. Sorry about that. All being said, S 2000, my take on WWIII being known, I'm very interested in hearing your perspective on the Mid 22nd Century.

stovokor2000

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Report this Aug. 23 2009, 7:36 pm

Quote (lostshaker @ Aug. 23 2009, 5:20 pm)
My exact quote was ..."humanity reverted to barbarism", not all of humanity resorted to barbarism.

Nice try at a "spin" but no cigar.

To say "humanity reverted to barbarism", is to imply ALL of humanity resorted to barbarism.

The word "humanity" in the context of the discussion at hand translates into "The total world population of humans".

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First, the Encyclopedia I'm referencing is the updated and expanded edition (the 3rd edition with soft cover than came after the hard cover updated edition).


Which is irrelevent.

The Star Trek Encyclopedia is still only a guide to canon and not canon of or within it self.

And the material contained within is still subject to the writers opinion.

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Again, I never said the book was cannon.


Official documentation translates into canon in my book.

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Continuing from the beginning, the statement was being used as a comparison to the cultural developments and new united earth "nonsense" (as Q put it) that occurred in the early part of the 22nd century.


It was a poor comparison, and the statement itself was not accurate.

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Guilty until proven innocent is very backwards from today's standard,


As above....none of that indicates a reversion to a state of Barbarism for the whole of humanity.

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Troi did in fact call Q a barbarian as you pointed out. But his actions were consistent within the court system depicted and the previously presented treatment/death of the Mid 22nd Century Soldier. It's not unreasonable, given the depiction of the court, that many judges of the time acted similarly, which would further Q's point (and Data even said Q's depiction was "...very, very accurate."). Troi's statement can be interpreted as a mirror for the time period. Any judge who acted similarly could be seen as a barbarian.


And yet none of that indicates is was the norm for the whole of humanity as your original comment suggested.

I'll give you credit for knowing your facts but your comment was erroneous.

I hope you dont take insult to me dropping the rest of your post but it really wasnt on point.

stovokor2000

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Report this Aug. 23 2009, 7:37 pm

Quote (lostshaker @ Aug. 23 2009, 5:22 pm)
Something weird happened with that whole quote bit. Sorry about that. All being said, S 2000, my take on WWIII being known, I'm very interested in hearing your perspective on the Mid 22nd Century.

What would you like to know.

Lucifer_

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Report this Aug. 23 2009, 8:53 pm

Jesus, after reading Stovokor's exchange with Lostshaker, all I got out of it was that one of them thinks humanity reverting to barbarism means this applies to every person on the planet:

stovokor2000

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Report this Aug. 23 2009, 9:48 pm

Quote (Lucifer_ @ Aug. 23 2009, 8:53 pm)
Jesus, after reading Stovokor's exchange with Lostshaker, all I got out of it was that one of them thinks humanity reverting to barbarism means this applies to every person on the planet:


Funny.

But truth be told thats exactly what it means when you say "humanity reverted barbarism".

.

Lucifer_

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Report this Aug. 23 2009, 11:55 pm

Well, they did have an asian midget during the trial scene in Encounter at Farpoint:



Bonus points for Shang Tsung. MORTAL KOMBAT!!!!!

stovokor2000

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Report this Aug. 24 2009, 1:52 am

Quote (Lucifer_ @ Aug. 23 2009, 11:55 pm)
Well, they did have an asian midget during the trial scene in Encounter at Farpoint:



Bonus points for Shang Tsung. MORTAL KOMBAT!!!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!

WkdYngMan

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Report this Aug. 24 2009, 4:20 am

Quote (lostshaker @ Aug. 22 2009, 3:52 pm)
Actually, I too enjoyed Galaxy Quest, recognizing it as poking fun at Star Trek. That being said, Galaxy Quest is not Star Trek, and I will not refer to Abrams' movie as its slapped on label implies.

For no good reason, none the less, other than to moan about it.

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You can take the name however you wish.


I don't take it at all.  Since I do what most other normal people do and refer to it as "Star Trek" as that is what it is.

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All I want is a name I believe to be more fitting. Just know that I have far more colorful descriptions of his movie that I am actually refraining myself from using out of respect for those people on these boards who enjoyed the movie.


You're already being disrespectful to most of us as it is by saying it.

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