honeybee1111 GROUP: Members POSTS: 880  |
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Aug. 02 2009, 12:12 pm
I'll also pipe up for Cogenitor. Every time I watch that episode, I side with Trip. Those Cogenitors were slaves and/or an underclass. Not cool. Not right. And way creepy. I would have probably done the same thing as Trip and probably f-things up just as badly. Its a great episode that makes the point that even though you see an injustice in another society - trying to undo that injustice from the outside will likely screw up the situation more. Trip created an impossible situation. What would happened to poor Charles if Charles had been given asylum. Couldn't stay on Enterpise. Where would Charles go? (Notice how i avoid pronouns.)
On the other hand, a sexual slave underclass? Still wrong no matter how you look at it. No way those people would be let into a TNG-era Federation if things continued as they were.
I know people sometimes compare this episode to TNG's "The Outsider" - but I don't agree. They only have the idea of an androgynous being in common. The Outsider is a love story and a metaphor for homosexuality. Cogenitor isn't a love story at all. It's a story about seeing an injustice in another culture and, with the best of intentions, screwing things up. And its a slavery/underclass metaphor.
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grigori GROUP: Members POSTS: 10463 |
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Aug. 02 2009, 12:20 pm
| Quote (honeybee1111 @ Aug. 02 2009, 12:12 pm) | | I know people sometimes compare this episode to TNG's "The Outsider" - but I don't agree. They only have the idea of an androgynous being in common. The Outsider is a love story and a metaphor for homosexuality. Cogenitor isn't a love story at all. It's a story about seeing an injustice in another culture and, with the best of intentions, screwing things up. And its a slavery/underclass metaphor. |
Agreed. Also, I couldn't help comparing the Cogenitor situation with Alien Nation's handling of a third gender required for procreation yet not part of a marriage. There, too, while the attitudes were far more respectful, the position of the third gender proved too restrictive for many of them and the Tenctonese society--once on Earth--had to deal with something of a human rights revolution as well. When third genders began murdering other third genders for questioning their historic position things got messy, all right. |
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honeybee1111 GROUP: Members POSTS: 880 |
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Aug. 02 2009, 12:43 pm
I'm going to respectfully disagree with you, Yanks. Sentient beings should have the right to self-determination. If "Charles" wanted to learn to read or see mountains, "Charles" should have been able to make that choice. Yes, I'll agree that after a lifetime of being kept servile, Charles wasn't ready or capable of making choices - and clearly acted on impulse in ending its (?) life. That was Trip's screw up. But I'll keep the position that a society that doesn't allow a whole class of individuals any self-determination - no matter what the reasons - is engaging in oppression. I'm not saying the solution would have to look like a "human equality" scenario - but something could have been done to improve the lot of those cogenitors.
See Grigori...we can debate and remain civilized.
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honeybee1111 GROUP: Members POSTS: 880 |
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Aug. 02 2009, 2:11 pm
Well, Yanks, I agree outsiders don't have a right and shouldn't be the ones to solve the "slavery" issue in a society - and that's why we need a prime directive. But I think the society should take a hard look at itself and how it treats sentient beings in its own society. Plenty of Trek - like the measure of a man - does say that individuals have a right to choose their own destiny and the right to exist as they choose within certain limits- it's the hallmark of a civilized, evolved society. Outsiders can't make any civilization improve - but there is room for improvement in that society. But while we may disagree on that issue, we can agree completely that this is the perfect prime directive episode. Outsiders can't improve an alien society - I just think that there's room for improvement here.  |
SLagonia GROUP: Members POSTS: 18170 |
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Aug. 02 2009, 5:20 pm
| Quote (grigori @ Aug. 01 2009, 1:26 pm) | | Quote (SLagonia @ July 30 2009, 4:46 pm) | 10. Carpenter Street (144) - I know I shouldn't like it, but what the hell, it's just so much fun watching fish out of water.
8. Babel One (142) - The amazing acting in this episode was enough to make you forget that they ripped off the plot from TOS, the jokes from TNG and the CGI from Nemesis. ?
3. Broken Bow (97) - She started well, I'll give her that. ?This is actually the opposite of In a Mirror Darkly. ?This was a great story that had too little effort in it. ?It could have been among the best... ?But as it stands it was still #### good. |
SLagonia: yeh, I'll make the conscious decision to overlook the thinly-veiled contempt you have for the fan enthusiasm of the ENT Forum, achieved through the consistenly back-handed compliments, and just be happy you joined in one of the POSITIVE threads.
For the record, most of us are too new to understand just why your posts constantly take on the tone of "I'm the ultimate expert here, and my summations carry more authoritative weight than any other critical attempts." Either explain how you arrived at your exalted position, or admit you didn't realize how insulting your regard for our collective intelligence really is.
Slagonia, I'd never take a person to task for participating, but sometimes their tone itself is difficult to understand. I feel like you aren't actually reading or RESPONDING to OUR threads. Pontificiation must be the other Forum over. They DO tell me that posts were more cut-throat in the past and on other Forums. |
It's because I'm the ultimate authority on Trek... Bow down! Bow before your lord and master! Bwahahahaha!!! Seriously, everything here is just my opinion. You need to go into every thread expecting that everything said is just someone's opinion, and constantly writing things like "I feel..." or "In my opinion..." is just redundant. |
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SLagonia GROUP: Members POSTS: 18170 |
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Aug. 02 2009, 5:25 pm
| Quote (Yanks @ Aug. 01 2009, 1:32 pm) | | Quote (SLagonia @ Aug. 01 2009, 11:41 pm) | | Quote (captainroe @ July 30 2009, 3:40 pm) | | Similitude- Encourages discussions of the ethics regarding human cloning. |
It really wasn't about cloning specificly. ?It was more about the concept of a disposable person in general, in the fine tradition of episodes like Tuvix and Measure of a Man (the later being far superior to the former). |
Measure of a Man was referring to a "machine" having rights. This has nothing to to with Similitude.
...and a "disposable person" has everything to do with cloning in this episode. |
Measure of a Man was about disposable people. The idea was that Data was a new race, and he was being treated as property, which was nothing more than an excuse to use him and others like him as a slave. No need to risk lives anymore, just send the android. The case Picard made was basicly that they would be judged by how they treated this new race, and if they condemned him to a life of slavery, it would be as immoral as if they condemned any living being to slavery. The idea was to combat the idea that people can be treated as property - That they can be disposable and treated as no more than tools. The implications of this are pretty serious for our modern world - Thinking of a minority as disposable instead of a person, discarding a baby because he or she is too inconvinient for you, cloning someone for use as a slave, etc. It reaches beyond the literal and into the philosophical like all good Trek episodes. Simultude continued this fine tradition. |
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grigori GROUP: Members POSTS: 10463 |
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Aug. 02 2009, 6:10 pm
| Quote (SLagonia @ Aug. 02 2009, 5:20 pm) | | Quote (grigori @ Aug. 01 2009, 1:26 pm) | | Quote (SLagonia @ July 30 2009, 4:46 pm) | 10. Carpenter Street (144) - I know I shouldn't like it, but what the hell, it's just so much fun watching fish out of water.
8. Babel One (142) - The amazing acting in this episode was enough to make you forget that they ripped off the plot from TOS, the jokes from TNG and the CGI from Nemesis. ?
3. Broken Bow (97) - She started well, I'll give her that. ?This is actually the opposite of In a Mirror Darkly. ?This was a great story that had too little effort in it. ?It could have been among the best... ?But as it stands it was still #### good. |
SLagonia: yeh, I'll make the conscious decision to overlook the thinly-veiled contempt you have for the fan enthusiasm of the ENT Forum, achieved through the consistenly back-handed compliments, and just be happy you joined in one of the POSITIVE threads.
For the record, most of us are too new to understand just why your posts constantly take on the tone of "I'm the ultimate expert here, and my summations carry more authoritative weight than any other critical attempts." Either explain how you arrived at your exalted position, or admit you didn't realize how insulting your regard for our collective intelligence really is.
Slagonia, I'd never take a person to task for participating, but sometimes their tone itself is difficult to understand. I feel like you aren't actually reading or RESPONDING to OUR threads. Pontificiation must be the other Forum over. They DO tell me that posts were more cut-throat in the past and on other Forums. |
It's because I'm the ultimate authority on Trek... ¿Bow down! ¿Bow before your lord and master! ¿Bwahahahaha!!!
Seriously, everything here is just my opinion. ¿You need to go into every thread expecting that everything said is just someone's opinion, and constantly writing things like "I feel..." ¿or "In my opinion..." is just redundant. |
I was hoping you'd say so. I just had to get stuff off my chest. Because on the other hand I very much appreciate your willingness to get into arguments of real substance--doesn't matter if I agree or not! It's the process that's to be commended. So speaking of which.... |
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grigori GROUP: Members POSTS: 10463 |
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Aug. 02 2009, 6:10 pm
| Quote (honeybee1111 @ Aug. 02 2009, 12:43 pm) | I'm going to respectfully disagree with you, Yanks. Sentient beings should have the right to self-determination. If "Charles" wanted to learn to read or see mountains, "Charles" should have been able to make that choice. Yes, I'll agree that after a lifetime of being kept servile, Charles wasn't ready or capable of making choices - and clearly acted on impulse in ending its (?) life. That was Trip's screw up. But I'll keep the position that a society that doesn't allow a whole class of individuals any self-determination - no matter what the reasons - is engaging in oppression. I'm not saying the solution would have to look like a "human equality" scenario - but something could have been done to improve the lot of those cogenitors.
See Grigori...we can debate and remain civilized. |
Yup, you guys do me proud! |
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SLagonia GROUP: Members POSTS: 18170 |
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Aug. 02 2009, 8:30 pm
| Quote (Yanks @ Aug. 01 2009, 10:45 pm) | | Quote (SLagonia @ Aug. 02 2009, 5:25 pm) | | Quote (Yanks @ Aug. 01 2009, 1:32 pm) | | Quote (SLagonia @ Aug. 01 2009, 11:41 pm) | | Quote (captainroe @ July 30 2009, 3:40 pm) | | Similitude- Encourages discussions of the ethics regarding human cloning. |
It really wasn't about cloning specificly. ?It was more about the concept of a disposable person in general, in the fine tradition of episodes like Tuvix and Measure of a Man (the later being far superior to the former). |
Measure of a Man was referring to a "machine" having rights. This has nothing to to with Similitude.
...and a "disposable person" has everything to do with cloning in this episode. |
Measure of a Man was about disposable people. ?The idea was that Data was a new race, and he was being treated as property, which was nothing more than an excuse to use him and others like him as a slave. ?No need to risk lives anymore, just send the android. ?The case Picard made was basicly that they would be judged by how they treated this new race, and if they condemned him to a life of slavery, it would be as immoral as if they condemned any living being to slavery.
The idea was to combat the idea that people can be treated as property - That they can be disposable and treated as no more than tools. ?The implications of this are pretty serious for our modern world - Thinking of a minority as disposable instead of a person, discarding a baby because he or she is too inconvinient for you, cloning someone for use as a slave, etc. ?It reaches beyond the literal and into the philosophical like all good Trek episodes. ?Simultude continued this fine tradition. |
Oh, the old (cue woppie please) slavery thing.
Funny you should fall for that, the judge did too.
That trial was to determine weather or not Data was sentient, ...and it was great until Picard went down the slavery road. (not knocking Picard, she let him do it...) The hearing was for Data, one machine, not a race. The slavery issue could be debated/addressed later if there were a 1000 Data's and they were being used as fodder etc. Not applicable in this trial.
The worst part is the judge let Picard use Maddox's definition of sentience to make her judgment.
PICARD: ¿What is required for sentience?
MADDOX: ¿Intelligence, self awareness, consciousness.
Where is that written anywhere?
This is what Data was on trial for:
PICARD: ¿Data, what are you doing now?
DATA: ¿I am taking part in a legal hearing to determine my rights and status. Am I property or person?
We can debate this all night, but you can't compare the 2. Measure of a Man and Similitude are 2 totally different balls of wax. Sim was sentient from the start. |
Data was a race - A race of one, and the question was whether or not Data would submit to a test that would effectively kill him, but allow for a whole flock of Datas to be made. And yes, it was bad law to go entirely by Picard's definition of sentience, but then there wasn't a better one offered by Riker or Maddox. In fact, there is no good definition, which was the point Picard was making. Picard ended his argument saying that he didn't know if Data was sentient, and niether did anyone else in that room, which led to the judge's decission - When she asks the real question here is whether or not Data has a soul, and that she needs to allow him to discover that for himself. This episode speaks volumes of the whole 'people as property' debate, which is where the whole 'slavery' part came in - Because it made Picard think about the idea that they were going to treat a new race as property, and that they would be used for labor and hazardous assignments because they weren't as important as people. They were disposable, sub-human, inferior. Well what is Simultude about? Sim is bred for one purpose - To harvest his organs. He's disposable; just a greenhouse with which they are growing what they need. Well the thing is, this greenhouse can speak, and when he does, you start to realize that he's a thinking, self-aware, sentient being and you've condemned him to death because you decided he wasn't as important as a human. He was disposable, sub-human, inferior... Catching a pattern here? I actually think Simultude did the job even better than Measure of a Man, which is saying something considering how great that episode was. It may just be that they had MoM to build off of and learn from when they wrote it. |
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honeybee1111 GROUP: Members POSTS: 880 |
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Aug. 02 2009, 8:34 pm
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SLagonia GROUP: Members POSTS: 18170 |
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Aug. 02 2009, 9:18 pm
| Quote (Yanks @ Aug. 02 2009, 12:10 am) | | Quote (SLagonia @ Aug. 02 2009, 8:30 pm) | | Data was a race - A race of one, and the question was whether or not Data would submit to a test that would effectively kill him, but allow for a whole flock of Datas to be made. ? |
Data was not a race until someone determined that he was sentient. So bringing up "race" during this hearing should not have been allowed. The "what will happen in the future" argument does not apply and should not have been allowed.
Weak judge.... but Picard new that and played that to his advantage. Good on him.
MoM was a GREAT Star Trek episode, so was Similitude and while similar, they are completly different.
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If he wasn't a race, then what was he? He wasn't human. You're picking on little words used and redefining things. None of this has anything to do with what we're discussing. | Quote | | Now, as honey alluded to earlier, it would have been a completely different case if Archer knew from the start that this operation would have killed Sim. |
What the hell did he think was going to happen? Sim was going to order the parts from "Organs R Us" and then move to Milwalkee? Of course he was going to die! |
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grigori GROUP: Members POSTS: 10463 |
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Aug. 02 2009, 9:28 pm
| Quote (SLagonia @ Aug. 02 2009, 9:18 pm) | | Quote | | Now, as honey alluded to earlier, it would have been a completely different case if Archer knew from the start that this operation would have killed Sim. |
What the hell did he think was going to happen? ¿Sim was going to order the parts from "Organs R Us" and then move to Milwalkee? ¿Of course he was going to die! |
The difference they're referring to is, at the beginning, the operation ITSELF wasn't going to kill Sim; he was going to live out his natural life, albeit short. Then things turned, and Phlox found that the operation WOULD kill Sim before his time. That's why he was even given the option of sacrificing himself. But when the whole plan started, no one thought they would be in such a situation. |
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honeybee1111 GROUP: Members POSTS: 880 |
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Aug. 02 2009, 9:42 pm
Yes, the worst thing Phlox and Archer thought they were doing was creating a sentient being that looked like Trip that would only live for 15 days. They didn't know they would have to kill him. They also didn't know he would have Trip's memories or abilities. They didn't anticipate growing attached to him. All of that made the news that Sim would have to die to save Trip very grim.
Archer was very lucky Sim turned out to be as noble as Trip and sacrifice himself because I'm pretty sure Archer would have had a rough time getting over ordering Trip "murdered". Phlox, too. Not to mention Trip.
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SLagonia GROUP: Members POSTS: 18170 |
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Aug. 02 2009, 9:57 pm
| Quote (grigori @ Aug. 02 2009, 12:28 am) | | Quote (SLagonia @ Aug. 02 2009, 9:18 pm) | | Quote | | Now, as honey alluded to earlier, it would have been a completely different case if Archer knew from the start that this operation would have killed Sim. |
What the hell did he think was going to happen? ?Sim was going to order the parts from "Organs R Us" and then move to Milwalkee? ?Of course he was going to die! |
The difference they're referring to is, at the beginning, the operation ITSELF wasn't going to kill Sim; he was going to live out his natural life, albeit short.
Then things turned, and Phlox found that the operation WOULD kill Sim before his time. That's why he was even given the option of sacrificing himself. But when the whole plan started, no one thought they would be in such a situation. |
Ah, I see what you're saying. I thought he was saying that he thought Sim was going to age like a human and live for a long time. The fact was, whether he was harvested from or not, Sim was being bred to perform a service and then be discarded (through his natural end of life). I think that should have raised some alarm bells that maybe this wasn't really fair to Sim. But then, that's the beauty of this episode. I criticize Dear Doctor all the time for not giving us something to think about, but rather preaching a bad moral. In Simultude, we weren't preached a bad moral, it was just a complicated series of events Archer found himself swept up in, and while his solution was bad, it was because his mind had already decided Sim was just a biological lump of cells to be harvested. We saw a thoughtful process of thought, serious reflection and a lot of character growth when he realized his initial thought was wrong. |
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SLagonia GROUP: Members POSTS: 18170 |
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Aug. 02 2009, 9:59 pm
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| | | | | | | border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (Yanks @ Aug. 02 2009, 12:27 am) | > id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (SLagonia @ Aug. 02 2009, 9:18 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (Yanks @ Aug. 02 2009, 12:10 am)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (SLagonia @ Aug. 02 2009, 8:30 pm)> id="QUOTE">Data was a race - A race of one, and the question was whether or not Data would submit to a test that would effectively kill him, but allow for a whole flock of Datas to be made. ?
Data was not a race until someone determined that he was sentient. So bringing up "race" during this hearing should not have been allowed. The "what will happen in the future" argument does not apply and should not have been allowed.
Weak judge.... but Picard new that and played that to his advantage. Good on him.
MoM was a GREAT Star Trek episode, so was Similitude and while similar, they are completly different.
If he wasn't a race, then what was he? ?He wasn't human.
You're picking on little words used and redefining things. ?None of this has anything to do with what we're discussing.
border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote > id="QUOTE">
Correct Slag, he wasn't human he was a machine and before this frakin hearing he was not considered sentient either.
Right - He was thought of as property. Those who had gotten to know him knew better, but they had to convince others who saw him as nothing more than an advanced calculator. |
