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exodus201

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Report this Feb. 16 2010, 10:47 am

Quote (brcarthey @ Feb. 16 2010, 10:43 am)
Quote (exodus201 @ Feb. 16 2010, 10:38 am)
Quote (brcarthey @ Feb. 15 2010, 9:53 pm)
Quote (teya1020 @ Feb. 15 2010, 8:20 pm)
Quote (brcarthey @ Feb. 15 2010, 7:58 pm)
^i have to slightly disagree with you teya. going to war, such as the case with WWII, could justify the loss of life. however, exploration, as in the case of adventurers like lewis and clark for the sole sake of seeing what's out there i don't believe justifies the loss of life.

being part of starfleet does come with inherent risks and dangers. when one signs up it is understood that their life may be at risk as in when they must go into battle. but, when you're simply out there looking at the wonders of nature i don't believe necessarily justifies anyone giving up their life for it. ?

i think that's the point that was trying to be made. as for kirk rolling over in his grave, well, he was from a different era of starfleet. he'd also be wondering why more womanizing wasn't going on b/t the captain and his crew. ;)

The thing is explorers *always* flirt with death--it's part of the deal of exploring unknown territory.


Space flight has risks. Humans aren't meant to live in space. ?Without risking life and limb, we wouldn't push the boundaries.


Janeway's statement not only negates everything Star Trek has ever been about, but it also negates the lives we've lost in real life.


*You* may not believe that pushing the boundaries is worth risking one's life, but then, you're not strapping yourself into a rocket and blasting into space. ;)


Those people who do that believe the risk to be worth it.

just one point for now....if they ever made it affordable enough or allowed people with diabetes to be part of the space program (what's left of it) i'd do my ####est to be part of it. so, while i understand what you're saying that we all accept that risk to our life we also try to limit as much as possible that risk otherwise when we started launching rockets back in the '50s we wouldn't have been using animals and primates first to make sure the rockets worked. we would've just started trying to put men into orbit from the get go.

the other side of this argument is that janeway was just really upset and depressed over carey's death and said something she didn't mean. i think most of us have done that in similar situations.

We're talking about the same Janeway that wouldn't go around Borg or Krenium space and faced the risk of loosing all her crew, yet loosing Carey was too high a price to pay?

:question:

true enough. i guess i look at exploration and battle as two separate endeavors. starfleet was at war with the borg while janeway knew she could possibly go to war with the krenim.

granted, her comment was heavy on the hyperbole, but at the same time i can understand what she meant when it comes to the matter of peaceful exploration.

Exploration has never been peaceful, ask the Native Americans.

brcarthey

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2608

Report this Feb. 16 2010, 11:04 am

Quote (exodus201 @ Feb. 16 2010, 10:47 am)
Quote (brcarthey @ Feb. 16 2010, 10:43 am)
Quote (exodus201 @ Feb. 16 2010, 10:38 am)
Quote (brcarthey @ Feb. 15 2010, 9:53 pm)
Quote (teya1020 @ Feb. 15 2010, 8:20 pm)
Quote (brcarthey @ Feb. 15 2010, 7:58 pm)
^i have to slightly disagree with you teya. going to war, such as the case with WWII, could justify the loss of life. however, exploration, as in the case of adventurers like lewis and clark for the sole sake of seeing what's out there i don't believe justifies the loss of life.

being part of starfleet does come with inherent risks and dangers. when one signs up it is understood that their life may be at risk as in when they must go into battle. but, when you're simply out there looking at the wonders of nature i don't believe necessarily justifies anyone giving up their life for it. ?

i think that's the point that was trying to be made. as for kirk rolling over in his grave, well, he was from a different era of starfleet. he'd also be wondering why more womanizing wasn't going on b/t the captain and his crew. ;)

The thing is explorers *always* flirt with death--it's part of the deal of exploring unknown territory.


Space flight has risks. Humans aren't meant to live in space. ?Without risking life and limb, we wouldn't push the boundaries.


Janeway's statement not only negates everything Star Trek has ever been about, but it also negates the lives we've lost in real life.


*You* may not believe that pushing the boundaries is worth risking one's life, but then, you're not strapping yourself into a rocket and blasting into space. ;)


Those people who do that believe the risk to be worth it.

just one point for now....if they ever made it affordable enough or allowed people with diabetes to be part of the space program (what's left of it) i'd do my ####est to be part of it. so, while i understand what you're saying that we all accept that risk to our life we also try to limit as much as possible that risk otherwise when we started launching rockets back in the '50s we wouldn't have been using animals and primates first to make sure the rockets worked. we would've just started trying to put men into orbit from the get go.

the other side of this argument is that janeway was just really upset and depressed over carey's death and said something she didn't mean. i think most of us have done that in similar situations.

We're talking about the same Janeway that wouldn't go around Borg or Krenium space and faced the risk of loosing all her crew, yet loosing Carey was too high a price to pay?

:question:

true enough. i guess i look at exploration and battle as two separate endeavors. starfleet was at war with the borg while janeway knew she could possibly go to war with the krenim.

granted, her comment was heavy on the hyperbole, but at the same time i can understand what she meant when it comes to the matter of peaceful exploration.

Exploration has never been peaceful, ask the Native Americans.

as a student of that period, you don't have to tell me. you're right in that there has rarely been peaceful exploration in humanity's past. as i stated before, lewis and clark might be the lone exception though i'd have to read more on their journey.

however, all past and future space exploration (granted, only to the moon and back for humans so far) is in a peaceful manner. i realize that might change if something of value is discovered. but, for now, it is peaceful.

RedShirtGuyNumber1001

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2016

Report this Feb. 16 2010, 4:33 pm

Why Moore was awesome in DS9, I think that his ideas of lack of resources would have been important.

rocketscientist

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POSTS: 10054

Report this Feb. 16 2010, 8:19 pm

Quote (RedShirtGuyNumber1001 @ Feb. 15 2010, 11:41 pm)
apples and oranges...roses are red violets are blue, sometimes cars go sometimes they won't, you stink but I don't...

anyway first off, how should a hero be buried? ¿There wasn't exactly a rock carver nearby to cut out a tombstone. ¿I thought it was a touching moment. ¿He buried him on the planet that saved so many lives. ¿Including the lives of Picard's crew. ¿It was Picard's way of saying thank you.

He could've said thankyou better by bringing James T. Kirk back home to earth, burying him on the family farm in Iowa and giving Spock a chance to speak at his friend's funeral, which he apparently didn't get in GEN.

Yeah, I agree with UG.  I thought it sucked that Picard just left Kirk under a pile of rocks with no marker other than his badge.

And, Teya, btw, you make a very good point about what Janeway said about Carey.  That is a direct contradiction to Kirk's statement of the Enterprise's mission statement in Return to Tomorrow, "Risk is our business."

rocketscientist

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 10054

Report this Feb. 16 2010, 8:21 pm

Quote (exodus201 @ Feb. 16 2010, 10:38 am)
Quote (brcarthey @ Feb. 15 2010, 9:53 pm)
Quote (teya1020 @ Feb. 15 2010, 8:20 pm)
Quote (brcarthey @ Feb. 15 2010, 7:58 pm)
^i have to slightly disagree with you teya. going to war, such as the case with WWII, could justify the loss of life. however, exploration, as in the case of adventurers like lewis and clark for the sole sake of seeing what's out there i don't believe justifies the loss of life.

being part of starfleet does come with inherent risks and dangers. when one signs up it is understood that their life may be at risk as in when they must go into battle. but, when you're simply out there looking at the wonders of nature i don't believe necessarily justifies anyone giving up their life for it. ?

i think that's the point that was trying to be made. as for kirk rolling over in his grave, well, he was from a different era of starfleet. he'd also be wondering why more womanizing wasn't going on b/t the captain and his crew. ;)

The thing is explorers *always* flirt with death--it's part of the deal of exploring unknown territory.


Space flight has risks. Humans aren't meant to live in space. ?Without risking life and limb, we wouldn't push the boundaries.


Janeway's statement not only negates everything Star Trek has ever been about, but it also negates the lives we've lost in real life.


*You* may not believe that pushing the boundaries is worth risking one's life, but then, you're not strapping yourself into a rocket and blasting into space. ;)


Those people who do that believe the risk to be worth it.

just one point for now....if they ever made it affordable enough or allowed people with diabetes to be part of the space program (what's left of it) i'd do my ####est to be part of it. so, while i understand what you're saying that we all accept that risk to our life we also try to limit as much as possible that risk otherwise when we started launching rockets back in the '50s we wouldn't have been using animals and primates first to make sure the rockets worked. we would've just started trying to put men into orbit from the get go.

the other side of this argument is that janeway was just really upset and depressed over carey's death and said something she didn't mean. i think most of us have done that in similar situations.

We're talking about the same Janeway that wouldn't go around Borg or Krenium space and faced the risk of loosing all her crew, yet loosing Carey was too high a price to pay?

:question:

Yeah, it's weird, isn't it.

Janeway's character just wasn't always written in an consistent fashion.  This is something that both fans and VOY alumni have commented on.

That said, Kate Mulgrew was great.  I just didn't think her character was always written well.  Most of the time she was though.

exodus201

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POSTS: 0

Report this Feb. 16 2010, 10:05 pm

Quote (rocketscientist @ Feb. 16 2010, 8:19 pm)
Quote (RedShirtGuyNumber1001 @ Feb. 15 2010, 11:41 pm)
apples and oranges...roses are red violets are blue, sometimes cars go sometimes they won't, you stink but I don't...

anyway first off, how should a hero be buried? ?There wasn't exactly a rock carver nearby to cut out a tombstone. ?I thought it was a touching moment. ?He buried him on the planet that saved so many lives. ?Including the lives of Picard's crew. ?It was Picard's way of saying thank you.

He could've said thankyou better by bringing James T. Kirk back home to earth, burying him on the family farm in Iowa and giving Spock a chance to speak at his friend's funeral, which he apparently didn't get in GEN.

Yeah, I agree with UG. ¿I thought it sucked that Picard just left Kirk under a pile of rocks with no marker other than his badge.

It never bothered me how Kirk died or whee he was laid to rest.
It's one of the few things in a sci-fi like Trek they kept real.
Not all heroes die as noble as written in history books & not al heroes comes home.

His death and body shouldn't be important.
It's his legacy that he will be remembered by in the Trek universe.
Why should us knowing the truth tarnish that?

exodus201

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POSTS: 0

Report this Feb. 17 2010, 9:37 am

^^
G odd amn, milk does a body good!!!!:laugh:

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