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Captain Janeway's ridiculously stupid flight plan

lostshaker

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POSTS: 2293

Report this Aug. 03 2009, 1:54 pm

In Abrams' movie, Orci and Kurtzman miswrote Kirk's character, very much in a backwards direction. It's as if they looked at what he was in the movies and applied that to his early days. This is completely inaccurate from the descriptions of Kirk in his Academy days and even what we saw in TOS. ?Kirk appeared confident in front of his crew or when addressing an enemy, but was constantly doubting himself. Numerous times when he bluffed himself through situations, you could see him break a sweat as he waited for a reply, betraying his sense of absolute certainty.

In his Academy days he was intelligent (something we only told in Abrams' movie, yet was completely contradicted whenever he did something), had confidence, but was a little high strung because of his ambitions to command, so he came off very strong and centered.

As far as the Kobayashi Maru, while Kirk is an excellent tactician, he is an explorer and diplomat first. I find it ludicrous that Pine reprogrammed the test for a victory that required the destruction of Klingon Ships, rather a victory with a peaceful, diplomatic solution. It didn't seem like Pine was even taking the test seriously.

In contrast, Kirk's test should've gone more like this:

Information being presented much like it was in TWOK (The Kobayashi Maru wasn't USS like Abrams' movie had it), you hear the distress call. Kirk moves to advance and then is warned about the Neutral Zone. He opens hailing frequencies and addresses any Klingon Commanders that may be monitoring the situation. And much like "The Corbomite Maneuver", he bluffs his way through saying something like... "the Federation employs Starbases along its side of the Neutral Zone to monitor activity, not mines. Therefore he can only conclude that the mines are of Klingon Origin (perhaps a strayed mine) or forgotten weapons left over from the Romulan Wars - a matter that was to be remedied by the Klingons in the establishment of the Neutral Zone." Kirk would then go on to propose that the Klingons allow him to conduct his rescue operation, beam the survivors aboard, and in turn he would leave the Kobayashi Maru in the hands of the Klingons for them to verify its sensor records regarding the origins of the gravitic mines. Kirk would obviously save the Maru crew without a fire fight and be out of range before the Klingons could verify the origins of the gravitic mines - whether true or false.

After Kirk 'beat' the test, an Admiral will grill Kirk to his tactics, which he would admit himself that he reprogrammed the computer to allow for the possibility of winning, but that he wasn't sure if his solution was still the correct one. Kirk would further go on to explain that Starfleet teaches them to always seek out that third alternative, and the Kobayashi Maru was a direct contradiction to that line of thinking - something that Kirk couldn't reconcile as a Starfleet Officer. Presented with such logic, Starfleet would give Kirk an accommodation for original thinking and backing up his actions - a requirement for any Starfleet Captain. Starfleet, in its decision, would be further impressed that Kirk managed a diplomatic solution, rather than a fire fight.

SLagonia

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POSTS: 18170

Report this Aug. 03 2009, 4:06 pm

Quote (lostshaker @ Aug. 02 2009, 4:54 pm)
In Abrams' movie, Orci and Kurtzman miswrote Kirk's character, very much in a backwards direction. It's as if they looked at what he was in the movies and applied that to his early days. This is completely inaccurate from the descriptions of Kirk in his Academy days and even what we saw in TOS. ?Kirk appeared confident in front of his crew or when addressing an enemy, but was constantly doubting himself. Numerous times when he bluffed himself through situations, you could see him break a sweat as he waited for a reply, betraying his sense of absolute certainty.

That was something I always loved about the character of Kirk - When the viewscreen turned on and he was looking the other commander in the eye, he could say with absolute confidence that his bluff was the truth.  When he spoke to his people, his voice would never waiver and his words were always cool and calm...  But then you would see his human side too...  You'd see it when no one else was looking.

I think the best example of this is Balance of Terror.  Kirk was on the verge of a total breakdown from all the stress he was facing.  The entire fate of two worlds hung on his movements, and he was doubting every move he made - Yet once he was in that chair, all signs of doubt were gone.  He was the captain, and that's all that mattered.

Then at the end when he comforts the young yeoman, he inspires her to do the same - To push it down and keep moving forward, and when she leaves the room his expression takes a complete 180, only to go back to being calm and collected as soon as he goes back to the crew.

Quote

As far as the Kobayashi Maru, while Kirk is an excellent tactician, he is an explorer and diplomat first. I find it ludicrous that Pine reprogrammed the test for a victory that required the destruction of Klingon Ships, rather a victory with a peaceful, diplomatic solution. It didn't seem like Pine was even taking the test seriously.

In contrast, Kirk's test should've gone more like this:

Information being presented much like it was in TWOK (The Kobayashi Maru wasn't USS like Abrams' movie had it), you hear the distress call. Kirk moves to advance and then is warned about the Neutral Zone. He opens hailing frequencies and addresses any Klingon Commanders that may be monitoring the situation. And much like "The Corbomite Maneuver", he bluffs his way through saying something like... "the Federation employs Starbases along its side of the Neutral Zone to monitor activity, not mines. Therefore he can only conclude that the mines are of Klingon Origin (perhaps a strayed mine) or forgotten weapons left over from the Romulan Wars - a matter that was to be remedied by the Klingons in the establishment of the Neutral Zone." Kirk would then go on to propose that the Klingons allow him to conduct his rescue operation, beam the survivors aboard, and in turn he would leave the Kobayashi Maru in the hands of the Klingons for them to verify its sensor records regarding the origins of the gravitic mines. Kirk would obviously save the Maru crew without a fire fight and be out of range before the Klingons could verify the origins of the gravitic mines - whether true or false.

After Kirk 'beat' the test, an Admiral will grill Kirk to his tactics, which he would admit himself that he reprogrammed the computer to allow for the possibility of winning, but that he wasn't sure if his solution was still the correct one. Kirk would further go on to explain that Starfleet teaches them to always seek out that third alternative, and the Kobayashi Maru was a direct contradiction to that line of thinking - something that Kirk couldn't reconcile as a Starfleet Officer. Presented with such logic, Starfleet would give Kirk an accommodation for original thinking and backing up his actions - a requirement for any Starfleet Captain. Starfleet, in its decision, would be further impressed that Kirk managed a diplomatic solution, rather than a fire fight.


That's very similar to what at least one book on this matter suggested, and it fits the character far better than what we saw in the movie.  The Kirk there was just ####y, and reprogrammed the test just because he could.  His defense that the test was a cheat and so he cheated back is ridiculous, and I'd have grounded him too!

lostshaker

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POSTS: 2293

Report this Aug. 03 2009, 5:21 pm

Quote (SLagonia @ Aug. 03 2009, 4:06 pm)
That was something I always loved about the character of Kirk - When the viewscreen turned on and he was looking the other commander in the eye, he could say with absolute confidence that his bluff was the truth. ¿When he spoke to his people, his voice would never waiver and his words were always cool and calm... ¿But then you would see his human side too... ¿You'd see it when no one else was looking.

I think the best example of this is Balance of Terror. ¿Kirk was on the verge of a total breakdown from all the stress he was facing. ¿The entire fate of two worlds hung on his movements, and he was doubting every move he made - Yet once he was in that chair, all signs of doubt were gone. ¿He was the captain, and that's all that mattered.

Then at the end when he comforts the young yeoman, he inspires her to do the same - To push it down and keep moving forward, and when she leaves the room his expression takes a complete 180, only to go back to being calm and collected as soon as he goes back to the crew.

He was a stack of books with legs. ¿It was always said that the Kirk of that era was a prodigy, but he was too intelectual. ¿It seemed that his time in the service is what grounded his attitude and made him the man he turned into.

A fantastic assessment of Kirk's character, SLagonia. And what was great about 'Balance of Terror' is in addition to his tactical skills, Kirk actually reached out to the Romulan Commander and offered to beam him and his crew aboard. I loved it when the Romulan Commander said that they were alike and could be friends if it were another time.

stovokor2000

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POSTS: 2683

Report this Aug. 03 2009, 6:09 pm

Quote (lostshaker @ Aug. 03 2009, 1:54 pm)
In Abrams' movie, Orci and Kurtzman miswrote Kirk's character, very much in a backwards direction.

If thats the impression you got then you completly misunderstood what JJ was doing.

The character wasnt miss-written.

He was written differently because he is a different person.

A person is the sum of his experience,the sum of their person history,the end result of every choise they ever made.

If you change these events you change the person.

The absence of his father lead to different life experiences,lead to a different life history, lead to different choices.

lostshaker

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POSTS: 2293

Report this Aug. 03 2009, 6:15 pm

Quote (stovokor2000 @ Aug. 03 2009, 6:09 pm)
Quote (lostshaker @ Aug. 03 2009, 1:54 pm)
In Abrams' movie, Orci and Kurtzman miswrote Kirk's character, very much in a backwards direction.

If thats the impression you got then you completly misunderstood what JJ was doing.

The character wasnt miss-written.

He was written differently because he is a different person.

A person is the sum of his experience,the sum of their person history,the end result of every choise they ever made.

If you change these events you change the person.

The absence of his father lead to different life experiences,lead to a different life history, lead to different choices.

Which is precisely the reason I have a problem with the whole premise of the movie. They want to return to the original series characters, yet we're not going to see the original series characters because they have in fact been changed. They should have just given us a new crew, which is essentially what they did anyway, instead of giving the TOS crew a bad makeover.

And it's hard to miss the point of anything in that movie because they hit you over the head with information and leave no room for subtly.

captbates

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POSTS: 12614

Report this Aug. 03 2009, 6:21 pm

Quote (lostshaker @ Aug. 02 2009, 11:15 pm)
Quote (stovokor2000 @ Aug. 03 2009, 6:09 pm)
Quote (lostshaker @ Aug. 03 2009, 1:54 pm)
In Abrams' movie, Orci and Kurtzman miswrote Kirk's character, very much in a backwards direction.

If thats the impression you got then you completly misunderstood what JJ was doing.

The character wasnt miss-written.

He was written differently because he is a different person.

A person is the sum of his experience,the sum of their person history,the end result of every choise they ever made.

If you change these events you change the person.

The absence of his father lead to different life experiences,lead to a different life history, lead to different choices.

Which is precisely the reason I have a problem with the whole premise of the movie. They want to return to the original series characters, yet we're not going to see the original series characters because they have in fact been changed. They should have just given us a new crew, which is essentially what they did anyway, instead of giving the TOS crew a bad makeover.

And it's hard to miss the point of anything in that movie because they hit you over the head with information and leave no room for subtly.

Why make something new, just to keep it exactly the same? kinda limiting is it not?

stovokor2000

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POSTS: 2683

Report this Aug. 03 2009, 6:38 pm

Quote (lostshaker @ Aug. 03 2009, 6:15 pm)
Quote (stovokor2000 @ Aug. 03 2009, 6:09 pm)
Quote (lostshaker @ Aug. 03 2009, 1:54 pm)
In Abrams' movie, Orci and Kurtzman miswrote Kirk's character, very much in a backwards direction.

If thats the impression you got then you completly misunderstood what JJ was doing.

The character wasnt miss-written.

He was written differently because he is a different person.

A person is the sum of his experience,the sum of their person history,the end result of every choise they ever made.

If you change these events you change the person.

The absence of his father lead to different life experiences,lead to a different life history, lead to different choices.

Which is precisely the reason I have a problem with the whole premise of the movie. They want to return to the original series characters, yet we're not going to see the original series characters because they have in fact been changed. They should have just given us a new crew, which is essentially what they did anyway, instead of giving the TOS crew a bad makeover.

And it's hard to miss the point of anything in that movie because they hit you over the head with information and leave no room for subtly.

I can understand not liking the idea.

Its just your first comment made it sound like they made a mistake writting the character.

And they didnt make a mistake....they chose to change the character.

RedShirtGuyNumber1001

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POSTS: 2016

Report this Aug. 03 2009, 9:01 pm

But you see that doesn't matter.  For one thing Finnegan when saying Kirk was a book worm does not mean that Kirk was a Dork.  Finnegan was an upper classman and most upper classman like to make fun of the new recruits.  It could just mean Kirk was a man with a plan and serious, not a nerd, a geek, or a dork.  I don't think that the new Kirk was so far out of context.  if you recall when he joined Starfleet he said his plan was to become an officer in three years, because he planned on working hard for it.  No I would say both Kirk's were probably both brash and confident.  Even though maybe Finnegan took it as being too serious.

RedShirtGuyNumber1001

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Report this Aug. 03 2009, 9:05 pm

Also lets just chill ok, just because there are some differences in the movie that may go against some of the books you have read, doesn't mean that the story was bad.  I for one enjoyed the movie, and thought it was a good return for Star Trek.  I don't hate it, and it wasn't stupid.  You also have to remember that some people don't read the Trek novels, so what you think you know doesn't matter to everyone else.  The essential essence of Kirk's character was there, however the differences on how old Kirk vs. new Kirk were raised was due to the circumstances of the events in each Kirk's life.  This can explain some of the differences.  So it is ok relax will you.

lostshaker

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POSTS: 2293

Report this Aug. 03 2009, 10:29 pm

I haven't read many Trek novels, and of the ones I've read, none of them have been about the original crew. I draw and my facts and interpretations from the show and movies. Glad you enjoyed the movie, but I was waiting to see a crew that never appeared.

stovokor2000

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POSTS: 2683

Report this Aug. 03 2009, 10:44 pm

Quote (RedShirtGuyNumber1001 @ Aug. 03 2009, 9:01 pm)
But you see that doesn't matter. ¿For one thing Finnegan when saying Kirk was a book worm does not mean that Kirk was a Dork. ¿Finnegan was an upper classman and most upper classman like to make fun of the new recruits. ¿It could just mean Kirk was a man with a plan and serious, not a nerd, a geek, or a dork. ¿I don't think that the new Kirk was so far out of context. ¿if you recall when he joined Starfleet he said his plan was to become an officer in three years, because he planned on working hard for it. ¿No I would say both Kirk's were probably both brash and confident. ¿Even though maybe Finnegan took it as being too serious.

I dont recall Finnegan making any such claim about Kirk.

But even if my memory is at fault, he wasnt the only one to describe Kirk and a dork.

Gary Mitchel made the same sort of claims, and he wasnt a upper classman.

lostshaker

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Report this Aug. 03 2009, 10:53 pm

It was Gary who described Kirk as a walking stack of books, and that with Kirk "...you either think or sink." Finnigan just harassed Kirk, and it came off as Finnigan having took Kirk too seriously and believing he needed to lighten up. And I agree that Kirk was never presented as being a dork or nerd.

jbe333

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POSTS: 33

Report this Feb. 03 2011, 10:31 pm

From a previous post:


"Caretaker" happens after DS9's "Jem Hadar". Starfleet and Voyager's Starfleet crew were aware of the Dominion, the Maquis at the time did not nor was it a concern for them at the time. So when Chakotay tells Be'Lanna about the "Dominion" for the first time, it's still holds consistant.


However, it seems that:


Voyager was not aware of the Dominion unless they kept the doctor out of the loop completely. See the episode "Communications". The EMH of Prometheus states that they were in war with the Dominion, and the Doctor is most puzzled about who they might be.

jbe333

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POSTS: 33

Report this Feb. 03 2011, 11:05 pm

I don't understand the belief that Voyager would have been in the Beta Quadrant from posts on page 1. They never made it further than 20,000 light years into their journey before taking the Borg shortcut at season 7. They would have still been in the Delta Q.

parisandtorres

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Report this Feb. 04 2011, 4:58 pm

Don't Know...

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