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Any good Enterprise books?

Middleman

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POSTS: 3657

Report this Jul. 07 2009, 7:56 pm

Quote (stovokor2000 @ July 07 2009, 4:37 pm)
The book might be good, but if its as you say.......that Trips death was faked so he could go under cover as a lead to the Romulan war then the book contradict canon.

According to canon [Spocks dialog and a bio from "In a mirror Darkly"] the Romulan war ended before the Federatin charter was signed in 2160.

Trip died in 2161.

Any explanation changes canon by saying the previous info was wrong

The book did not contradict canon, it changed it (if you believe that the books can do that). If you read the book, Trips death did not occur in 2161; his death was faked in 2155. End of story.

Here is a quote from "The Good That Men Do"

Quote
Jake peered at the chip, as if trying to divine its secrets just by studying its translucent surface. "The when is part of what makes this complicated. It concerns events we've been told happened in 2161. But the real events actually occurred years earlier, in 2155. And I can't tell whether the where and who are related solely to Section 31, or whether this apparently deliberate cover-up was something sanctioned by those in charge during the earliest days of the Federation."

stovokor2000

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POSTS: 2683

Report this Jul. 07 2009, 8:10 pm

Quote (Middleman @ July 07 2009, 7:56 pm)
Quote (stovokor2000 @ July 07 2009, 4:37 pm)
The book might be good, but if its as you say.......that Trips death was faked so he could go under cover as a lead to the Romulan war then the book contradict canon.

According to canon [Spocks dialog and a bio from "In a mirror Darkly"] the Romulan war ended before the Federatin charter was signed in 2160.

Trip died in 2161.

Any explanation changes canon by saying the previous info was wrong

The book did not contradict canon, it changed it (if you believe that the books can do that). If you read the book, Trips death did not occur in 2161 his death was faked in 2155. End of story.

Here is a quote from "The Good That Men Do"

Quote
Jake peered at the chip, as if trying to divine its secrets just by studying its translucent surface. "The when is part of what makes this complicated. It concerns events we've been told happened in 2161. But the real events actually occurred years earlier, in 2155. And I can't tell whether the where and who are related solely to Section 31, or whether this apparently deliberate cover-up was something sanctioned by those in charge during the earliest days of the Federation."

"Contradict canon"& "changed canon" are terms that are synonymous in this kind of case.

Just as it is synonymous with the term "retcon."

You cant "change" canon with out contradicting the old canon...otherwise there is no change.

But for the record I dont believe a book can change the canon of the show.

grigori

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 10463

Report this Jul. 07 2009, 8:13 pm

Quote (Middleman @ July 07 2009, 7:56 pm)
Quote (stovokor2000 @ July 07 2009, 4:37 pm)
The book might be good, but if its as you say.......that Trips death was faked so he could go under cover as a lead to the Romulan war then the book contradict canon.

According to canon [Spocks dialog and a bio from "In a mirror Darkly"] the Romulan war ended before the Federatin charter was signed in 2160.

Trip died in 2161.

Any explanation changes canon by saying the previous info was wrong

The book did not contradict canon, it changed it (if you believe that the books can do that). If you read the book, Trips death did not occur in 2161 his death was faked in 2155. End of story.

Here is a quote from "The Good That Men Do"

Quote
Jake peered at the chip, as if trying to divine its secrets just by studying its translucent surface. "The when is part of what makes this complicated. It concerns events we've been told happened in 2161. But the real events actually occurred years earlier, in 2155. And I can't tell whether the where and who are related solely to Section 31, or whether this apparently deliberate cover-up was something sanctioned by those in charge during the earliest days of the Federation."

furthermore, the writers of the book are METICULOUS in their attention to the detail of TATV, building on elements that were already there and discarding nothing.

the most ingenious device IS their use of the hologram aspect of the show: having shown the episode (and ONLY the events of TATV) in hologram form demonstrates aptly that there existed an "official" version of this history, which they then compare and contrast with the real version.

it's only the HOLOGRAM that isn't canon! it's ALREADY an interpretation as presented on screen, and the book turns on that.

Martin/Mangels definitely do NOT present an air of carelessness with canon. That's what I liked about the books. It's not the wild ride into oblivious fantasy you may think it sounds like.

stovokor2000

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POSTS: 2683

Report this Jul. 07 2009, 8:19 pm

Quote (grigori @ July 07 2009, 8:13 pm)
Quote (Middleman @ July 07 2009, 7:56 pm)
Quote (stovokor2000 @ July 07 2009, 4:37 pm)
The book might be good, but if its as you say.......that Trips death was faked so he could go under cover as a lead to the Romulan war then the book contradict canon.

According to canon [Spocks dialog and a bio from "In a mirror Darkly"] the Romulan war ended before the Federatin charter was signed in 2160.

Trip died in 2161.

Any explanation changes canon by saying the previous info was wrong

The book did not contradict canon, it changed it (if you believe that the books can do that). If you read the book, Trips death did not occur in 2161 his death was faked in 2155. End of story.

Here is a quote from "The Good That Men Do"

Quote
Jake peered at the chip, as if trying to divine its secrets just by studying its translucent surface. "The when is part of what makes this complicated. It concerns events we've been told happened in 2161. But the real events actually occurred years earlier, in 2155. And I can't tell whether the where and who are related solely to Section 31, or whether this apparently deliberate cover-up was something sanctioned by those in charge during the earliest days of the Federation."

furthermore, the writers of the book are METICULOUS in their attention to the detail of TATV, building on elements that were already there and discarding nothing.

the most ingenious device IS their use of the hologram aspect of the show: having shown the episode (and ONLY the events of TATV) in hologram form demonstrates aptly that there existed an "official" version of this history, which they then compare and contrast with the real version.

it's only the HOLOGRAM that isn't canon! it's ALREADY an interpretation as presented on screen, and the book turns on that.

Martin/Mangels definitely do NOT present an air of carelessness with canon. That's what I liked about the books. It's not the wild ride into oblivious fantasy you may think it sounds like.

They way I see it, calling any part of the final episode an error or "not canon" fuels the debate on wether the entire series isint canon.

Middleman

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 3657

Report this Jul. 07 2009, 8:27 pm

Quote (stovokor2000 @ July 07 2009, 8:10 pm)
You can "change" canon with out contradicting the old canon...otherwise there is no change.

You can change canon by saying "what you thought you saw isn't what happened...this is what actually happened." This is what the publishers (CBS/PARAMOUNT) did with "The Good That Men Do". Whether you accept it or not, is up to you. Look at all the canon flushing JJ did with a time traveler!

Quote (stovokor2000 @ July 07 2009, 8:10 pm)
But for the record I dont believe a book can change the canon of the show.

My personal POV is: when a series is canceled, such as Enterprise (or any of the other series for that matter), and the only way the story of that crew can continue is via the books, then the books are canon. This "book canon" should hold until something comes up on screen to either contradict it or affirm it.

grigori

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POSTS: 10463

Report this Jul. 07 2009, 8:28 pm

Quote (stovokor2000 @ July 07 2009, 8:19 pm)
Quote (grigori @ July 07 2009, 8:13 pm)
Quote (Middleman @ July 07 2009, 7:56 pm)
Quote (stovokor2000 @ July 07 2009, 4:37 pm)
The book might be good, but if its as you say.......that Trips death was faked so he could go under cover as a lead to the Romulan war then the book contradict canon.

According to canon [Spocks dialog and a bio from "In a mirror Darkly"] the Romulan war ended before the Federatin charter was signed in 2160.

Trip died in 2161.

Any explanation changes canon by saying the previous info was wrong

The book did not contradict canon, it changed it (if you believe that the books can do that). If you read the book, Trips death did not occur in 2161 his death was faked in 2155. End of story.

Here is a quote from "The Good That Men Do"

Quote
Jake peered at the chip, as if trying to divine its secrets just by studying its translucent surface. "The when is part of what makes this complicated. It concerns events we've been told happened in 2161. But the real events actually occurred years earlier, in 2155. And I can't tell whether the where and who are related solely to Section 31, or whether this apparently deliberate cover-up was something sanctioned by those in charge during the earliest days of the Federation."

furthermore, the writers of the book are METICULOUS in their attention to the detail of TATV, building on elements that were already there and discarding nothing.

the most ingenious device IS their use of the hologram aspect of the show: having shown the episode (and ONLY the events of TATV) in hologram form demonstrates aptly that there existed an "official" version of this history, which they then compare and contrast with the real version.

it's only the HOLOGRAM that isn't canon! it's ALREADY an interpretation as presented on screen, and the book turns on that.

Martin/Mangels definitely do NOT present an air of carelessness with canon. That's what I liked about the books. It's not the wild ride into oblivious fantasy you may think it sounds like.

They way I see it, calling any part of the final episode an error or "not canon" fuels the debate on wether the entire series isint canon.

it's the already-fact that the final episode was presented in hologram form feeding that misconception about the whole series.

the book serves to REINFORCE how only certain events--those in TATV--were interpreted and reinterpreted.

in fact, the book BEGINS with the very real action overlapping the end of Terra Prime: Elizabeth's funeral on Vulcan. this provides a solid continuity with the REAL events of all the episodes prior to TATV.

Middleman

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 3657

Report this Jul. 07 2009, 8:29 pm

Quote (stovokor2000 @ July 07 2009, 8:19 pm)
They way I see it, calling any part of the final episode an error or "not canon" fuels the debate on wether the entire series isint canon.

But that can't be debated because Enterprise was confirmed in STXI

stovokor2000

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POSTS: 2683

Report this Jul. 07 2009, 8:55 pm

Quote (Middleman @ July 07 2009, 8:27 pm)
You can change canon by saying "what you thought you saw wasn't what had happened...this is what actually happened." This is what the publishers (CBS/PARAMOUNT) did with "The Good That Men Do".

And in doing so, their contradicting what has been established.

Quote

My personal POV is: when a series is canceled, such as Enterprise (or any of the other series for that matter), and the only way the story of that crew can continue is via the books, then the books are canon. This "book canon" should hold until something comes up on screen to either contradict it or affirm it.


I would live to agree with that point of view but it creates other problems.

Does one only except book that were published after the series ended as canon?????

What about all the books published durring the shows run???

What about books that are set durring the run but published after the series ended???

So many "what abouts" when trying to select only some books as canon.

The way I see it, to except 1 book as canon is to except all books as canon.

Quote
But that can't be debated because Enterprise was confirmed in STXI

Look in case you dont know this about me I'm part of the "Enterprise is canon" camp.

But I'm also known for playing devils advocate.

And the only thing that JJ's film confirmed is that sometime in the past an Admiral name Archer had a begal.

His film really didnt render the argument non-debatable.

And I'm sure you'll tell me what the writters intent is or was but writter intent is hardly canon.

stovokor2000

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POSTS: 2683

Report this Jul. 07 2009, 8:56 pm

Quote (grigori @ July 07 2009, 8:28 pm)
Quote (stovokor2000 @ July 07 2009, 8:19 pm)
Quote (grigori @ July 07 2009, 8:13 pm)
Quote (Middleman @ July 07 2009, 7:56 pm)
Quote (stovokor2000 @ July 07 2009, 4:37 pm)
The book might be good, but if its as you say.......that Trips death was faked so he could go under cover as a lead to the Romulan war then the book contradict canon.

According to canon [Spocks dialog and a bio from "In a mirror Darkly"] the Romulan war ended before the Federatin charter was signed in 2160.

Trip died in 2161.

Any explanation changes canon by saying the previous info was wrong

The book did not contradict canon, it changed it (if you believe that the books can do that). If you read the book, Trips death did not occur in 2161 his death was faked in 2155. End of story.

Here is a quote from "The Good That Men Do"

Quote
Jake peered at the chip, as if trying to divine its secrets just by studying its translucent surface. "The when is part of what makes this complicated. It concerns events we've been told happened in 2161. But the real events actually occurred years earlier, in 2155. And I can't tell whether the where and who are related solely to Section 31, or whether this apparently deliberate cover-up was something sanctioned by those in charge during the earliest days of the Federation."

furthermore, the writers of the book are METICULOUS in their attention to the detail of TATV, building on elements that were already there and discarding nothing.

the most ingenious device IS their use of the hologram aspect of the show: having shown the episode (and ONLY the events of TATV) in hologram form demonstrates aptly that there existed an "official" version of this history, which they then compare and contrast with the real version.

it's only the HOLOGRAM that isn't canon! it's ALREADY an interpretation as presented on screen, and the book turns on that.

Martin/Mangels definitely do NOT present an air of carelessness with canon. That's what I liked about the books. It's not the wild ride into oblivious fantasy you may think it sounds like.

They way I see it, calling any part of the final episode an error or "not canon" fuels the debate on wether the entire series isint canon.

it's the already-fact that the final episode was presented in hologram form feeding that misconception about the whole series.

the book serves to REINFORCE how only certain events--those in TATV--were interpreted and reinterpreted.

in fact, the book BEGINS with the very real action overlapping the end of Terra Prime: Elizabeth's funeral on Vulcan. this provides a solid continuity with the REAL events of all the episodes prior to TATV.

The episode was presented as a "HISTORICAL" holgram program.

And Riker and Troy indicated it was pretty accurate.

And I'm sure you can tell me "history isint always right" but again.......saying any part of that episode was in error or not canon fuels the argument that the entire series wasnt either.

Middleman

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POSTS: 3657

Report this Jul. 07 2009, 9:07 pm

stovokor2000
Happy to hear that you're in the "Enterprise is canon" camp, devils advocate or not. I don't know how much you know about me, but I'm in the "I don't give a crap about canon as long as I am entertained" camp. Enterprise was very entertaining for me and the books are as well. I will believe what I choose to in the name of being entertained and normally I don't give a rat's butt what anyone else thinks. I was just giving you my POV, to debate fiction endlessly is just tedious. (I'm not picking a fight with you)

One other point. In the end CBS/Paramount is the true keeper of the canon and they call the shots. The books are their official publications and they chose how to continue the story of the crew of the NX-01. Who am I to argue with them.

stovokor2000

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POSTS: 2683

Report this Jul. 07 2009, 9:20 pm

Quote (Middleman @ July 07 2009, 9:07 pm)
stovokor2000
Happy to hear that you're in the "Enterprise is canon" camp, devils advocate or not. I don't know how much you know about me, but I'm in the "I don't give a crap about canon as long as I am entertained" camp. Enterprise was very entertaining for me and the books are as well. I will believe what I choose to in the name of being entertained and normally I don't give a rat's butt what anyone else thinks. I was just giving you my POV, to debate fiction endlessly is just tedious. (I'm not picking a fight with you)

One other point. In the end CBS/Paramount is the true keeper of the canon and they call the shots. The books are their official publications and they chose how to continue the story of the crew of the NX-01. Who am I to argue with them.

No fight bud.

I like your camp :bugout:

But one question.......are the books in question published by CBS\Paramount or licenseed like other Trek books???

grigori

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POSTS: 10463

Report this Jul. 07 2009, 9:21 pm

Quote (stovokor2000 @ July 07 2009, 8:56 pm)
The episode was presented as a "HISTORICAL" holgram program.

And Riker and Troy indicated it was pretty accurate.

And I'm sure you can tell me "history isint always right" but again.......saying any part of that episode was in error or not canon fuels the argument that the entire series wasnt either.

Troi and Riker were viewing the official, historical version of the events quite some TIME before Jake & Nog unearthed the cover-up. So yes, it WAS presented as historical--to Troi and Riker.

But the books delineate a very good reason for having constructed an official, yet alternate version of the events of this sensitive time period leading up to the Romulan War. It was that important that Tucker's new identity never be discovered.

I don't understand how a book that EMPHASIZES the artificiality and mutability of holographic representation while at the same time re-affirming that there existed a REAL timeline (which grew out of all the other episodes' events) can be said to suggest that any part of its own REAL timeline was ALSO holographic. It wouldn't make sense (to suggest that there were TWO holographic treatments of the NX-01's mission floating around).

stovokor2000

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POSTS: 2683

Report this Jul. 07 2009, 9:32 pm

Quote (grigori @ July 07 2009, 9:21 pm)
Quote (stovokor2000 @ July 07 2009, 8:56 pm)
The episode was presented as a "HISTORICAL" holgram program.

And Riker and Troy indicated it was pretty accurate.

And I'm sure you can tell me "history isint always right" but again.......saying any part of that episode was in error or not canon fuels the argument that the entire series wasnt either.

Troi and Riker were viewing the official, historical version of the events quite some TIME before Jake & Nog unearthed the cover-up. So yes, it WAS presented as historical--to Troi and Riker.

But the books delineate a very good reason for having constructed an official, yet alternate version of the events of this sensitive time period leading up to the Romulan War. It was that important that Tucker's new identity never be discovered.

I don't understand how a book that EMPHASIZES the artificiality and mutability of holographic representation while at the same time re-affirming that there existed a REAL timeline (which grew out of all the other episodes' events) can be said to suggest that any part of its own REAL timeline was ALSO holographic. It wouldn't make sense (to suggest that there were TWO holographic treatments of the NX-01's mission floating around).

Largly because if "any" event in the series can be called "non-canon" it calls into question the evtire series.

Think about it.....yes many of the "so called" canon violations can be chalked up to misunderstanding or misinterpertations......but not all of them.

Calling any part of the series a inaccurate holgram gives the haters amunition to say that any part of the series that changes what we thought as canon is also a holgram or not canon.

And you cant cherry pick whats canon......if any of it is called into question all of it follows.

Its a house of cards.

whyaduck

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POSTS: 3478

Report this Jul. 07 2009, 9:46 pm

Quote (Middleman @ July 07 2009, 9:07 pm)
stovokor2000
Happy to hear that you're in the "Enterprise is canon" camp, devils advocate or not. I don't know how much you know about me, but I'm in the "I don't give a crap about canon as long as I am entertained" camp. Enterprise was very entertaining for me and the books are as well. I will believe what I choose to in the name of being entertained and normally I don't give a rat's butt what anyone else thinks. I was just giving you my POV, to debate fiction endlessly is just tedious. (I'm not picking a fight with you)

One other point. In the end CBS/Paramount is the true keeper of the canon and they call the shots. The books are their official publications and they chose how to continue the story of the crew of the NX-01. Who am I to argue with them.

MM - we were obviously separated at birth. :laugh:

"Canon schmanon." - whyaduck, 2009

grigori

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POSTS: 10463

Report this Jul. 07 2009, 9:55 pm

Stovokor: Martin/Mangels didn't arbitrarily "cherry-pick" a set of events to discard from canon; they used ONLY events that were ALREADY being presented second-hand. That's the beauty of it. It's also the crux of it. No other screen representation of Trek history can be said to be as open to re-telling as this particular hologram in this particular episode, so it would be impossible to reasonably extend the notion of re-telling to ANYTHING else, in ENT or any other series.

As I said, you won't find anything in the books that's indifferent to canon. I'll allow for taste, of course, but right now I'm dealing with your particular concerns.

I appreciate you as devil's advocate, Stovokor--you're good at it! to extend the metaphor, it's a necessary evil, for any worthwhile discussion.

But I come from a position of sharing many of your concerns and still was persuaded by the book. There's so much crap out there in ST fiction that I'd like to give the good stuff its due.

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