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"Dumbing down"

WkdYngMan

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 3951

Report this Jul. 30 2009, 12:15 pm

Quote (axilmar1 @ July 30 2009, 12:01 pm)
So me saying the mentoring part was 0.5% of the movie is 'seeing what I want to see'? If an entire movie contains no message, except for a few scenes, that does not make the movie intellectual.

No it makes it enjoyable.

SpaceTherapist

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 6370

Report this Jul. 30 2009, 3:27 pm

Quote (axilmar1 @ July 29 2009, 12:58 pm)
Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 30 2009, 9:19 am)
Quote (axilmar1 @ July 29 2009, 9:11 am)
Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 29 2009, 11:34 am)
Quote (axilmar1 @ July 28 2009, 9:22 am)
Quote (Vger23 @ July 27 2009, 6:01 pm)
Quote (Vorta_the_point @ July 27 2009, 4:51 pm)
Quote (axilmar1 @ July 27 2009, 11:52 am)
TMP is brained up because it had a sci-fi mystery, not that Nero crap.

FC is brained up because of the Borg (an enemy like no other).

INS is brained up because of the message it carries.

I could probably go on and tell you something clever each movie has, except the last one, which was just like any other movie today, i.e. brainless and pop-corn entertainment.

The thing is though, what you are describing above is simply touching on an issue or message, not an intellectual discourse.

Most films do this in some way or another; from the depth of the issues you describe above, it could be argued that Star Wars Revenge of the Sith is 'brained up' as it deals with the issues of doing the wrong thing for the right reasons (the end justifies the means); possessive, selfish love in comparison to compassionate, altruistic love; the erosion of liberties in the name of security and the dangers of nationalism without check; the nature of betrayal and self-deception. All these themes exist in the movie. However, does having themes make it intellectual or 'brained up'?

Likewise, the new Star Trek film possesses it's own themes, just as the other Star Trek films do; it covers the issues of revenge and obsession, and most crucially the idea of rising above personal problems to fulfill your own potential. Indeed, one of the two main plots (the other being stopping Nero) revolves around this theme, that of the gradual turning of the alternate, disadvantaged, disillusioned Kirk from James T. Jerk into James T. Kirk - striving to better oneself, one of the central themes of Star Trek!

Dead-on.

For anyone to say "FC is brained-up" and try to pass it off by saying it's because the Borg were a good enemy is absolute self-denial and delusion.

You can find a "brained up" message in any movie if you really want to. I think you illustrated this perfectly. Again, those who WANT to dislike the movie will find ways to justify it because it's part of their agenda to prove themselves "right."

The reality is that there is a huge difference between "having a message" and "being intellectually relevant / challenging," as you have pointed out. And, if we're arguing "having a message" I think that the new movie had as much of a "message" as any of the others. I feel bad that there were people who may not have been open or sharp enough to catch it. As far as saying it's intellectually challenging or relevant...I really don't think that 90% of Star Trek falls into this category. Star Trek is smart and fun, but rarely intellectually relevant or challenging.

The ST movies aren't particularly intellectual, but the series are. That's natural, because in a series there is a lot of time to develop a message.

Even so, STXI's message (rising up to fulfill your own potential) is not something that concerns the pressing social problems we are facing right now.

Actually, "rising up to fulfill your own potential" is not even a message. A message contains a question, and analysis and a conclusion.

"rising up to fulfill your own potential" is a message when the characters in a movie successfully accomplish that.

While I agree that message is not one that is directed at society as a whole, but that message is a universal theme that everyone can relate to. All human beings have struggles within themselves that they need to rise above.

Star Trek has always been about positive messages and themes and I think Star Trek XI is congruent in demonstrating that hopeful and positive outlook even though it might be more on an individual level.


Star Trek also has many episodes were it dealt with individual growth and potential. The TNG episode Final Mission comes to mind. In that episode Wesley Crusher demonstrates how he has grown and matured in facing life threatening circumstances.

But it's not important. Even if all people on Earth fulfill their potentials, life wouldn't be better. It's the society that counts, not the individual.

Even if one considers the message you say as important, the movie did not do a good job at developing it. It did not show anything important, any conclusion that we might use for a basis of a conversation. We did not see any consequences of the inner struggle or anything like that.

Well, it was important to me. Overcoming personal struggles was satisfying for me. That issue is inspirational for me. I am fresh off watching Wrath of Khan this morning. I didn't see any universal themes of bettering society in that movie. It was all very individualistic and personal, themes of aging, friendship, revenge and how decisions from the past can come back home to roost.

I thought that the theme of overcoming personal struggles was handled well in the new movie. Yes it was wrapped in an entertaining action adventure story yet so was Wrath of Khan.

Ok, for you then STXI was ok. What about the masses? there should be a message for the masses as well.

To me should is a dirty word. Not all shoulds are valid and they can all be called into question. As I said in another post Wrath of Khan didn't have a big message and neither did some other Star Trek movies.

Star Trek needs to be entertaining first and foremost and if there is a message with it then that is icing on the cake. This movie is successful and many people enjoyed it despite it not being a message heavy movie.

I can think of countless entertaining episodes and movies in all forms of Star trek that were not primarily message oriented.

I also don't think one person can speak for the masses. Some people desire that Star trek has a message while for some people it really isn't that important (I did a poll on this very topic when the movie came out and the majority voted that a message was not essential).

So, for you a message may be essential, and I am sure there are others who feel the same way, but there are also other people on the other side of the fence who feel differently.

SpaceTherapist

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 6370

Report this Jul. 30 2009, 3:32 pm

> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (Vger23 @ July 30 2009, 10:23 am)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (axilmar1 @ July 30 2009, 8:16 am)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (Vger23 @ July 29 2009, 12:37 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 29 2009, 12:32 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (Vger23 @ July 28 2009, 1:18 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 29 2009, 12:08 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (Vger23 @ July 28 2009, 1:02 pm)> id="QUOTE">["rising up to fulfill your own potential" is a message when the characters in a movie successfully accomplish that.

While I agree that message is not one that is directed at society as a whole, but that message is a universal theme that everyone can relate to. All human beings have struggles within themselves that they need to rise above.

Star Trek has always been about positive messages and themes and I think Star Trek XI is congruent in demonstrating that hopeful and positive outlook even though it might be more on an individual level.


Star Trek also has many episodes were it dealt with individual growth and potential. The TNG episode Final Mission comes to mind. In that episode Wesley Crusher demonstrates how he has grown and matured in facing life threatening circumstances.
border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (axilmar1 @ July 29 2009, 1:01 pm)

Agreed, ST.

As I have said before: To me, at its CORE, Star Trek has always been about mankind's ability to reach great potential by overcoming flaws and weaknesses that are inherently there and learning to grow beyond them.

I think Star Trek XI did a good job of addressing this core theme in the story of Kirk's character and also in the story of Kirk and Spock learning to come together and be greater than the sum of their parts (also a CORE theme / message in Star Trek).

:)
"Dumbed Down" indeed, eh ST??

;) ?:cool:
It is dumbed down. The mentoring part of the script was 0.5% of the total script. The other 99.5% was about big explosions and bad humor.
You see what you want to see, Axe...so talking to you is unfortunately sometimes like forcing oneself to eat a fecal sandwich (I'd imagine).

Anyone who says that "First Contact" is intellectual because it has a "good enemy" but denies everything we've discussed here as legitimate reasons for appreciating a film has serious reality problems (and further illustrates my belief that you are absolutely incapable of thinking any other way besides how you are conditioned or pre-disposed to view the world). I think I've said these things to you at least 20 times now, so you MUST know where I stand. Why you continue to try to engage me in discussion is beyond me. It makes no sense. I have no desire to discuss anything wth you at all. So, acting like you aren't aware of that, and popping up every now and then to get answers when you (and I, and everyone else) already know you're not going to like / accept / agree with those answers is a bit strange to me.

This is how I see it. It is not how you see it. Nothing will ever change either of those two facts.

Time to move on, buddy.
So me saying the mentoring part was 0.5% of the movie is 'seeing what I want to see'? If an entire movie contains no message, except for a few scenes, that does not make the movie intellectual.

When I said the Borg were a 'good enemy', I meant a lot of things. There is a tremendous depth to the Borg, and a lot of symbolism.
If you see symbolism and meaning in the Borg then why do you begrudge others when they see symbolism and meaning in this movie?

I certainly will not question the meaning and symbolism you get out of the Borg. I will not argue with you whether or not it is there. In fact I encourage that type of thinking. Find meaning and symbolism wherever one can find it. Then allow others to have their symbolism and meaning even if you can't find it.

We're all different people.

axilmar1

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1576

Report this Jul. 30 2009, 6:46 pm

Quote (WkdYngMan @ July 30 2009, 12:15 pm)
Quote (axilmar1 @ July 30 2009, 12:01 pm)
So me saying the mentoring part was 0.5% of the movie is 'seeing what I want to see'? If an entire movie contains no message, except for a few scenes, that does not make the movie intellectual.

No it makes it enjoyable.

I am questioning the quality of enjoyment coming from STXI. Many shows are enjoyable, but they lack quality. Star Trek needs to have quality, as it is supposed to show the best humanity has to offer.

axilmar1

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1576

Report this Jul. 30 2009, 6:47 pm

Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 30 2009, 3:27 pm)
Quote (axilmar1 @ July 29 2009, 12:58 pm)
Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 30 2009, 9:19 am)
Quote (axilmar1 @ July 29 2009, 9:11 am)
Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 29 2009, 11:34 am)
Quote (axilmar1 @ July 28 2009, 9:22 am)
Quote (Vger23 @ July 27 2009, 6:01 pm)
Quote (Vorta_the_point @ July 27 2009, 4:51 pm)
Quote (axilmar1 @ July 27 2009, 11:52 am)
TMP is brained up because it had a sci-fi mystery, not that Nero crap.

FC is brained up because of the Borg (an enemy like no other).

INS is brained up because of the message it carries.

I could probably go on and tell you something clever each movie has, except the last one, which was just like any other movie today, i.e. brainless and pop-corn entertainment.

The thing is though, what you are describing above is simply touching on an issue or message, not an intellectual discourse.

Most films do this in some way or another; from the depth of the issues you describe above, it could be argued that Star Wars Revenge of the Sith is 'brained up' as it deals with the issues of doing the wrong thing for the right reasons (the end justifies the means); possessive, selfish love in comparison to compassionate, altruistic love; the erosion of liberties in the name of security and the dangers of nationalism without check; the nature of betrayal and self-deception. All these themes exist in the movie. However, does having themes make it intellectual or 'brained up'?

Likewise, the new Star Trek film possesses it's own themes, just as the other Star Trek films do; it covers the issues of revenge and obsession, and most crucially the idea of rising above personal problems to fulfill your own potential. Indeed, one of the two main plots (the other being stopping Nero) revolves around this theme, that of the gradual turning of the alternate, disadvantaged, disillusioned Kirk from James T. Jerk into James T. Kirk - striving to better oneself, one of the central themes of Star Trek!

Dead-on.

For anyone to say "FC is brained-up" and try to pass it off by saying it's because the Borg were a good enemy is absolute self-denial and delusion.

You can find a "brained up" message in any movie if you really want to. I think you illustrated this perfectly. Again, those who WANT to dislike the movie will find ways to justify it because it's part of their agenda to prove themselves "right."

The reality is that there is a huge difference between "having a message" and "being intellectually relevant / challenging," as you have pointed out. And, if we're arguing "having a message" I think that the new movie had as much of a "message" as any of the others. I feel bad that there were people who may not have been open or sharp enough to catch it. As far as saying it's intellectually challenging or relevant...I really don't think that 90% of Star Trek falls into this category. Star Trek is smart and fun, but rarely intellectually relevant or challenging.

The ST movies aren't particularly intellectual, but the series are. That's natural, because in a series there is a lot of time to develop a message.

Even so, STXI's message (rising up to fulfill your own potential) is not something that concerns the pressing social problems we are facing right now.

Actually, "rising up to fulfill your own potential" is not even a message. A message contains a question, and analysis and a conclusion.

"rising up to fulfill your own potential" is a message when the characters in a movie successfully accomplish that.

While I agree that message is not one that is directed at society as a whole, but that message is a universal theme that everyone can relate to. All human beings have struggles within themselves that they need to rise above.

Star Trek has always been about positive messages and themes and I think Star Trek XI is congruent in demonstrating that hopeful and positive outlook even though it might be more on an individual level.


Star Trek also has many episodes were it dealt with individual growth and potential. The TNG episode Final Mission comes to mind. In that episode Wesley Crusher demonstrates how he has grown and matured in facing life threatening circumstances.

But it's not important. Even if all people on Earth fulfill their potentials, life wouldn't be better. It's the society that counts, not the individual.

Even if one considers the message you say as important, the movie did not do a good job at developing it. It did not show anything important, any conclusion that we might use for a basis of a conversation. We did not see any consequences of the inner struggle or anything like that.

Well, it was important to me. Overcoming personal struggles was satisfying for me. That issue is inspirational for me. I am fresh off watching Wrath of Khan this morning. I didn't see any universal themes of bettering society in that movie. It was all very individualistic and personal, themes of aging, friendship, revenge and how decisions from the past can come back home to roost.

I thought that the theme of overcoming personal struggles was handled well in the new movie. Yes it was wrapped in an entertaining action adventure story yet so was Wrath of Khan.

Ok, for you then STXI was ok. What about the masses? there should be a message for the masses as well.

To me should is a dirty word. Not all shoulds are valid and they can all be called into question. As I said in another post Wrath of Khan didn't have a big message and neither did some other Star Trek movies.

Star Trek needs to be entertaining first and foremost and if there is a message with it then that is icing on the cake. This movie is successful and many people enjoyed it despite it not being a message heavy movie.

I can think of countless entertaining episodes and movies in all forms of Star trek that were not primarily message oriented.

I also don't think one person can speak for the masses. Some people desire that Star trek has a message while for some people it really isn't that important (I did a poll on this very topic when the movie came out and the majority voted that a message was not essential).

So, for you a message may be essential, and I am sure there are others who feel the same way, but there are also other people on the other side of the fence who feel differently.

Don't you think that low quality entertainment leads to low quality democracy?

axilmar1

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1576

Report this Jul. 30 2009, 6:50 pm

> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (axilmar1 @ July 29 2009, 1:01 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (Vger23 @ July 30 2009, 10:23 am)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (axilmar1 @ July 30 2009, 8:16 am)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (Vger23 @ July 29 2009, 12:37 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 29 2009, 12:32 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (Vger23 @ July 28 2009, 1:18 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 29 2009, 12:08 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (Vger23 @ July 28 2009, 1:02 pm)> id="QUOTE">["rising up to fulfill your own potential" is a message when the characters in a movie successfully accomplish that.

While I agree that message is not one that is directed at society as a whole, but that message is a universal theme that everyone can relate to. All human beings have struggles within themselves that they need to rise above.

Star Trek has always been about positive messages and themes and I think Star Trek XI is congruent in demonstrating that hopeful and positive outlook even though it might be more on an individual level.


Star Trek also has many episodes were it dealt with individual growth and potential. The TNG episode Final Mission comes to mind. In that episode Wesley Crusher demonstrates how he has grown and matured in facing life threatening circumstances.
border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 30 2009, 3:32 pm)

Agreed, ST.

As I have said before: To me, at its CORE, Star Trek has always been about mankind's ability to reach great potential by overcoming flaws and weaknesses that are inherently there and learning to grow beyond them.

I think Star Trek XI did a good job of addressing this core theme in the story of Kirk's character and also in the story of Kirk and Spock learning to come together and be greater than the sum of their parts (also a CORE theme / message in Star Trek).
:)
"Dumbed Down" indeed, eh ST??

;) ?:cool:
It is dumbed down. The mentoring part of the script was 0.5% of the total script. The other 99.5% was about big explosions and bad humor.
You see what you want to see, Axe...so talking to you is unfortunately sometimes like forcing oneself to eat a fecal sandwich (I'd imagine).

Anyone who says that "First Contact" is intellectual because it has a "good enemy" but denies everything we've discussed here as legitimate reasons for appreciating a film has serious reality problems (and further illustrates my belief that you are absolutely incapable of thinking any other way besides how you are conditioned or pre-disposed to view the world). I think I've said these things to you at least 20 times now, so you MUST know where I stand. Why you continue to try to engage me in discussion is beyond me. It makes no sense. I have no desire to discuss anything wth you at all. So, acting like you aren't aware of that, and popping up every now and then to get answers when you (and I, and everyone else) already know you're not going to like / accept / agree with those answers is a bit strange to me.

This is how I see it. It is not how you see it. Nothing will ever change either of those two facts.

Time to move on, buddy.
So me saying the mentoring part was 0.5% of the movie is 'seeing what I want to see'? If an entire movie contains no message, except for a few scenes, that does not make the movie intellectual.

When I said the Borg were a 'good enemy', I meant a lot of things. There is a tremendous depth to the Borg, and a lot of symbolism.
If you see symbolism and meaning in the Borg then why do you begrudge others when they see symbolism and meaning in this movie?

I certainly will not question the meaning and symbolism you get out of the Borg. I will not argue with you whether or not it is there. In fact I encourage that type of thinking. Find meaning and symbolism wherever one can find it. Then allow others to have their symbolism and meaning even if you can't find it.

We're all different people.
Indeed we are different, but we are sharing the same space, the same grounds, the same air, the same rules, money, food etc. Your actions affect my life, and my actions affect yours.

The message I find in the Borg is something that concerns all of us. It's not only for me.

SpaceTherapist

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 6370

Report this Jul. 30 2009, 6:53 pm

Quote (axilmar1 @ July 29 2009, 7:47 pm)
Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 30 2009, 3:27 pm)
Quote (axilmar1 @ July 29 2009, 12:58 pm)
Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 30 2009, 9:19 am)
Quote (axilmar1 @ July 29 2009, 9:11 am)
Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 29 2009, 11:34 am)
Quote (axilmar1 @ July 28 2009, 9:22 am)
Quote (Vger23 @ July 27 2009, 6:01 pm)
Quote (Vorta_the_point @ July 27 2009, 4:51 pm)
Quote (axilmar1 @ July 27 2009, 11:52 am)
TMP is brained up because it had a sci-fi mystery, not that Nero crap.

FC is brained up because of the Borg (an enemy like no other).

INS is brained up because of the message it carries.

I could probably go on and tell you something clever each movie has, except the last one, which was just like any other movie today, i.e. brainless and pop-corn entertainment.

The thing is though, what you are describing above is simply touching on an issue or message, not an intellectual discourse.

Most films do this in some way or another; from the depth of the issues you describe above, it could be argued that Star Wars Revenge of the Sith is 'brained up' as it deals with the issues of doing the wrong thing for the right reasons (the end justifies the means); possessive, selfish love in comparison to compassionate, altruistic love; the erosion of liberties in the name of security and the dangers of nationalism without check; the nature of betrayal and self-deception. All these themes exist in the movie. However, does having themes make it intellectual or 'brained up'?

Likewise, the new Star Trek film possesses it's own themes, just as the other Star Trek films do; it covers the issues of revenge and obsession, and most crucially the idea of rising above personal problems to fulfill your own potential. Indeed, one of the two main plots (the other being stopping Nero) revolves around this theme, that of the gradual turning of the alternate, disadvantaged, disillusioned Kirk from James T. Jerk into James T. Kirk - striving to better oneself, one of the central themes of Star Trek!

Dead-on.

For anyone to say "FC is brained-up" and try to pass it off by saying it's because the Borg were a good enemy is absolute self-denial and delusion.

You can find a "brained up" message in any movie if you really want to. I think you illustrated this perfectly. Again, those who WANT to dislike the movie will find ways to justify it because it's part of their agenda to prove themselves "right."

The reality is that there is a huge difference between "having a message" and "being intellectually relevant / challenging," as you have pointed out. And, if we're arguing "having a message" I think that the new movie had as much of a "message" as any of the others. I feel bad that there were people who may not have been open or sharp enough to catch it. As far as saying it's intellectually challenging or relevant...I really don't think that 90% of Star Trek falls into this category. Star Trek is smart and fun, but rarely intellectually relevant or challenging.

The ST movies aren't particularly intellectual, but the series are. That's natural, because in a series there is a lot of time to develop a message.

Even so, STXI's message (rising up to fulfill your own potential) is not something that concerns the pressing social problems we are facing right now.

Actually, "rising up to fulfill your own potential" is not even a message. A message contains a question, and analysis and a conclusion.

"rising up to fulfill your own potential" is a message when the characters in a movie successfully accomplish that.

While I agree that message is not one that is directed at society as a whole, but that message is a universal theme that everyone can relate to. All human beings have struggles within themselves that they need to rise above.

Star Trek has always been about positive messages and themes and I think Star Trek XI is congruent in demonstrating that hopeful and positive outlook even though it might be more on an individual level.


Star Trek also has many episodes were it dealt with individual growth and potential. The TNG episode Final Mission comes to mind. In that episode Wesley Crusher demonstrates how he has grown and matured in facing life threatening circumstances.

But it's not important. Even if all people on Earth fulfill their potentials, life wouldn't be better. It's the society that counts, not the individual.

Even if one considers the message you say as important, the movie did not do a good job at developing it. It did not show anything important, any conclusion that we might use for a basis of a conversation. We did not see any consequences of the inner struggle or anything like that.

Well, it was important to me. Overcoming personal struggles was satisfying for me. That issue is inspirational for me. I am fresh off watching Wrath of Khan this morning. I didn't see any universal themes of bettering society in that movie. It was all very individualistic and personal, themes of aging, friendship, revenge and how decisions from the past can come back home to roost.

I thought that the theme of overcoming personal struggles was handled well in the new movie. Yes it was wrapped in an entertaining action adventure story yet so was Wrath of Khan.

Ok, for you then STXI was ok. What about the masses? there should be a message for the masses as well.

To me should is a dirty word. Not all shoulds are valid and they can all be called into question. As I said in another post Wrath of Khan didn't have a big message and neither did some other Star Trek movies.

Star Trek needs to be entertaining first and foremost and if there is a message with it then that is icing on the cake. This movie is successful and many people enjoyed it despite it not being a message heavy movie.

I can think of countless entertaining episodes and movies in all forms of Star trek that were not primarily message oriented.

I also don't think one person can speak for the masses. Some people desire that Star trek has a message while for some people it really isn't that important (I did a poll on this very topic when the movie came out and the majority voted that a message was not essential).

So, for you a message may be essential, and I am sure there are others who feel the same way, but there are also other people on the other side of the fence who feel differently.

Don't you think that low quality entertainment leads to low quality democracy?

No. That would be an over generalization.

WkdYngMan

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 3951

Report this Jul. 30 2009, 7:14 pm

Quote (axilmar1 @ July 30 2009, 6:46 pm)
I am questioning the quality of enjoyment coming from STXI. Many shows are enjoyable, but they lack quality.

Well I can tell you that I enjoyed good quality entertainment.  I don't often enjoy things of bad quality.

Quote
Star Trek needs to have quality, as it is supposed to show the best humanity has to offer.


Keep in mind, these are your personal standards.

RedShirtGuyNumber1001

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2016

Report this Jul. 31 2009, 12:06 am

First off, Revenge of the Sith was a brainy movie are you kidding?  Was there any doubt what was going to happen?  Also the end was rushed.  Things did not go according to George Lucas's plan and the movie ending seemed abrupt, and Anikan was made out to be nothing more than a fool.

The new Trek movie was not dumbed down nor was it brainless as Mr. Jackass claims.  There were some thought provoking elements.  Did Spock always fail for example, or did something cause him to fail in the future,  Did Nero's involvement in the past time effect time so much, or were great men destined to always be great regardless of the different experiences.  Ok you have me guessing on why or how Spock and Uhura hooked up, it didn't make sense that those two characters would have even met, but it was in the movie anyway.

axilmar1

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1576

Report this Jul. 31 2009, 7:05 am

Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 30 2009, 6:53 pm)
Quote (axilmar1 @ July 29 2009, 7:47 pm)
Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 30 2009, 3:27 pm)
Quote (axilmar1 @ July 29 2009, 12:58 pm)
Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 30 2009, 9:19 am)
Quote (axilmar1 @ July 29 2009, 9:11 am)
Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 29 2009, 11:34 am)
Quote (axilmar1 @ July 28 2009, 9:22 am)
Quote (Vger23 @ July 27 2009, 6:01 pm)
Quote (Vorta_the_point @ July 27 2009, 4:51 pm)
Quote (axilmar1 @ July 27 2009, 11:52 am)
TMP is brained up because it had a sci-fi mystery, not that Nero crap.

FC is brained up because of the Borg (an enemy like no other).

INS is brained up because of the message it carries.

I could probably go on and tell you something clever each movie has, except the last one, which was just like any other movie today, i.e. brainless and pop-corn entertainment.

The thing is though, what you are describing above is simply touching on an issue or message, not an intellectual discourse.

Most films do this in some way or another; from the depth of the issues you describe above, it could be argued that Star Wars Revenge of the Sith is 'brained up' as it deals with the issues of doing the wrong thing for the right reasons (the end justifies the means); possessive, selfish love in comparison to compassionate, altruistic love; the erosion of liberties in the name of security and the dangers of nationalism without check; the nature of betrayal and self-deception. All these themes exist in the movie. However, does having themes make it intellectual or 'brained up'?

Likewise, the new Star Trek film possesses it's own themes, just as the other Star Trek films do; it covers the issues of revenge and obsession, and most crucially the idea of rising above personal problems to fulfill your own potential. Indeed, one of the two main plots (the other being stopping Nero) revolves around this theme, that of the gradual turning of the alternate, disadvantaged, disillusioned Kirk from James T. Jerk into James T. Kirk - striving to better oneself, one of the central themes of Star Trek!

Dead-on.

For anyone to say "FC is brained-up" and try to pass it off by saying it's because the Borg were a good enemy is absolute self-denial and delusion.

You can find a "brained up" message in any movie if you really want to. I think you illustrated this perfectly. Again, those who WANT to dislike the movie will find ways to justify it because it's part of their agenda to prove themselves "right."

The reality is that there is a huge difference between "having a message" and "being intellectually relevant / challenging," as you have pointed out. And, if we're arguing "having a message" I think that the new movie had as much of a "message" as any of the others. I feel bad that there were people who may not have been open or sharp enough to catch it. As far as saying it's intellectually challenging or relevant...I really don't think that 90% of Star Trek falls into this category. Star Trek is smart and fun, but rarely intellectually relevant or challenging.

The ST movies aren't particularly intellectual, but the series are. That's natural, because in a series there is a lot of time to develop a message.

Even so, STXI's message (rising up to fulfill your own potential) is not something that concerns the pressing social problems we are facing right now.

Actually, "rising up to fulfill your own potential" is not even a message. A message contains a question, and analysis and a conclusion.

"rising up to fulfill your own potential" is a message when the characters in a movie successfully accomplish that.

While I agree that message is not one that is directed at society as a whole, but that message is a universal theme that everyone can relate to. All human beings have struggles within themselves that they need to rise above.

Star Trek has always been about positive messages and themes and I think Star Trek XI is congruent in demonstrating that hopeful and positive outlook even though it might be more on an individual level.


Star Trek also has many episodes were it dealt with individual growth and potential. The TNG episode Final Mission comes to mind. In that episode Wesley Crusher demonstrates how he has grown and matured in facing life threatening circumstances.

But it's not important. Even if all people on Earth fulfill their potentials, life wouldn't be better. It's the society that counts, not the individual.

Even if one considers the message you say as important, the movie did not do a good job at developing it. It did not show anything important, any conclusion that we might use for a basis of a conversation. We did not see any consequences of the inner struggle or anything like that.

Well, it was important to me. Overcoming personal struggles was satisfying for me. That issue is inspirational for me. I am fresh off watching Wrath of Khan this morning. I didn't see any universal themes of bettering society in that movie. It was all very individualistic and personal, themes of aging, friendship, revenge and how decisions from the past can come back home to roost.

I thought that the theme of overcoming personal struggles was handled well in the new movie. Yes it was wrapped in an entertaining action adventure story yet so was Wrath of Khan.

Ok, for you then STXI was ok. What about the masses? there should be a message for the masses as well.

To me should is a dirty word. Not all shoulds are valid and they can all be called into question. As I said in another post Wrath of Khan didn't have a big message and neither did some other Star Trek movies.

Star Trek needs to be entertaining first and foremost and if there is a message with it then that is icing on the cake. This movie is successful and many people enjoyed it despite it not being a message heavy movie.

I can think of countless entertaining episodes and movies in all forms of Star trek that were not primarily message oriented.

I also don't think one person can speak for the masses. Some people desire that Star trek has a message while for some people it really isn't that important (I did a poll on this very topic when the movie came out and the majority voted that a message was not essential).

So, for you a message may be essential, and I am sure there are others who feel the same way, but there are also other people on the other side of the fence who feel differently.

Don't you think that low quality entertainment leads to low quality democracy?

No. That would be an over generalization.

Think about it.

Mass media have tremendous power in our times. If the material provided by the mass media is dumbed down, citizens are accustomed to not using their brains, i.e. to exercise critical thinking.

Not exercise critical thinking is dangerous for democracy.

Do you disagree?

axilmar1

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1576

Report this Jul. 31 2009, 7:07 am

Quote (WkdYngMan @ July 30 2009, 7:14 pm)
Quote (axilmar1 @ July 30 2009, 6:46 pm)
I am questioning the quality of enjoyment coming from STXI. Many shows are enjoyable, but they lack quality.

Well I can tell you that I enjoyed good quality entertainment. ¿I don't often enjoy things of bad quality.

Quote
Star Trek needs to have quality, as it is supposed to show the best humanity has to offer.


Keep in mind, these are your personal standards.

You may not enjoy things of bad quality, but what about the general population? the average Joe? the success of reality shows says that bad quality programs can be highly enjoyable.

Don't you agree that Star Trek is supposed to show the best humanity has to offer? if not, why?

SpaceTherapist

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 6370

Report this Jul. 31 2009, 8:57 am

Quote (axilmar1 @ July 30 2009, 8:05 am)
Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 30 2009, 6:53 pm)
Quote (axilmar1 @ July 29 2009, 7:47 pm)
Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 30 2009, 3:27 pm)
Quote (axilmar1 @ July 29 2009, 12:58 pm)
Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 30 2009, 9:19 am)
Quote (axilmar1 @ July 29 2009, 9:11 am)
Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 29 2009, 11:34 am)
Quote (axilmar1 @ July 28 2009, 9:22 am)
Quote (Vger23 @ July 27 2009, 6:01 pm)
Quote (Vorta_the_point @ July 27 2009, 4:51 pm)
Quote (axilmar1 @ July 27 2009, 11:52 am)
TMP is brained up because it had a sci-fi mystery, not that Nero crap.

FC is brained up because of the Borg (an enemy like no other).

INS is brained up because of the message it carries.

I could probably go on and tell you something clever each movie has, except the last one, which was just like any other movie today, i.e. brainless and pop-corn entertainment.

The thing is though, what you are describing above is simply touching on an issue or message, not an intellectual discourse.

Most films do this in some way or another; from the depth of the issues you describe above, it could be argued that Star Wars Revenge of the Sith is 'brained up' as it deals with the issues of doing the wrong thing for the right reasons (the end justifies the means); possessive, selfish love in comparison to compassionate, altruistic love; the erosion of liberties in the name of security and the dangers of nationalism without check; the nature of betrayal and self-deception. All these themes exist in the movie. However, does having themes make it intellectual or 'brained up'?

Likewise, the new Star Trek film possesses it's own themes, just as the other Star Trek films do; it covers the issues of revenge and obsession, and most crucially the idea of rising above personal problems to fulfill your own potential. Indeed, one of the two main plots (the other being stopping Nero) revolves around this theme, that of the gradual turning of the alternate, disadvantaged, disillusioned Kirk from James T. Jerk into James T. Kirk - striving to better oneself, one of the central themes of Star Trek!

Dead-on.

For anyone to say "FC is brained-up" and try to pass it off by saying it's because the Borg were a good enemy is absolute self-denial and delusion.

You can find a "brained up" message in any movie if you really want to. I think you illustrated this perfectly. Again, those who WANT to dislike the movie will find ways to justify it because it's part of their agenda to prove themselves "right."

The reality is that there is a huge difference between "having a message" and "being intellectually relevant / challenging," as you have pointed out. And, if we're arguing "having a message" I think that the new movie had as much of a "message" as any of the others. I feel bad that there were people who may not have been open or sharp enough to catch it. As far as saying it's intellectually challenging or relevant...I really don't think that 90% of Star Trek falls into this category. Star Trek is smart and fun, but rarely intellectually relevant or challenging.

The ST movies aren't particularly intellectual, but the series are. That's natural, because in a series there is a lot of time to develop a message.

Even so, STXI's message (rising up to fulfill your own potential) is not something that concerns the pressing social problems we are facing right now.

Actually, "rising up to fulfill your own potential" is not even a message. A message contains a question, and analysis and a conclusion.

"rising up to fulfill your own potential" is a message when the characters in a movie successfully accomplish that.

While I agree that message is not one that is directed at society as a whole, but that message is a universal theme that everyone can relate to. All human beings have struggles within themselves that they need to rise above.

Star Trek has always been about positive messages and themes and I think Star Trek XI is congruent in demonstrating that hopeful and positive outlook even though it might be more on an individual level.


Star Trek also has many episodes were it dealt with individual growth and potential. The TNG episode Final Mission comes to mind. In that episode Wesley Crusher demonstrates how he has grown and matured in facing life threatening circumstances.

But it's not important. Even if all people on Earth fulfill their potentials, life wouldn't be better. It's the society that counts, not the individual.

Even if one considers the message you say as important, the movie did not do a good job at developing it. It did not show anything important, any conclusion that we might use for a basis of a conversation. We did not see any consequences of the inner struggle or anything like that.

Well, it was important to me. Overcoming personal struggles was satisfying for me. That issue is inspirational for me. I am fresh off watching Wrath of Khan this morning. I didn't see any universal themes of bettering society in that movie. It was all very individualistic and personal, themes of aging, friendship, revenge and how decisions from the past can come back home to roost.

I thought that the theme of overcoming personal struggles was handled well in the new movie. Yes it was wrapped in an entertaining action adventure story yet so was Wrath of Khan.

Ok, for you then STXI was ok. What about the masses? there should be a message for the masses as well.

To me should is a dirty word. Not all shoulds are valid and they can all be called into question. As I said in another post Wrath of Khan didn't have a big message and neither did some other Star Trek movies.

Star Trek needs to be entertaining first and foremost and if there is a message with it then that is icing on the cake. This movie is successful and many people enjoyed it despite it not being a message heavy movie.

I can think of countless entertaining episodes and movies in all forms of Star trek that were not primarily message oriented.

I also don't think one person can speak for the masses. Some people desire that Star trek has a message while for some people it really isn't that important (I did a poll on this very topic when the movie came out and the majority voted that a message was not essential).

So, for you a message may be essential, and I am sure there are others who feel the same way, but there are also other people on the other side of the fence who feel differently.

Don't you think that low quality entertainment leads to low quality democracy?

No. That would be an over generalization.

Think about it.

Mass media have tremendous power in our times. If the material provided by the mass media is dumbed down, citizens are accustomed to not using their brains, i.e. to exercise critical thinking.

Not exercise critical thinking is dangerous for democracy.

Do you disagree?

Yes, I disagree. This complaint that all media is dumbed down is decades old. TV was once called the vast wasteland. People come in all styles and levels of ability to think critically and that will never change.

Also, life gives people plenty of opportunities to apply and learn critical thinking skills.

People are not going to grow stupid by watching mindless entertainment. The brain doesn't get less intelligent as people watch mindless entertainment. I didn't drop a few IQ points after watching this Star Trek movie.

There are many factors and variables in people's lives to whether or not they will be motivated pursue higher education and the influence by media that has been dumbed down is just not that significant.

Ever since man has been putting images on film there has been dumbed down entertainment from the Keystone Cops to Harold Lloyd on until today's entertainment.

There is also many movies and television programs and stations that are educational and your focus on only the dumbed down media is one sided because you have not taken into account the media that is educational.

axilmar1

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1576

Report this Jul. 31 2009, 11:04 am

Quote

Also, life gives people plenty of opportunities to apply and learn critical thinking skills.


But if someone is not trained to think critically, then the opportunity will be missed.

Quote

There are many factors and variables in people's lives to whether or not they will be motivated pursue higher education and the influence by media that has been dumbed down is just not that significant.


The influence of the media is enormous. It's the #1 influence. Young people want to be actors, models, singers and athletes by a large percentage, because of the media hyping those professions (I do not have time to post links to studies right now - may later; you can always type 'influence young people' in google and get some interesting articles).

Quote

There is also many movies and television programs and stations that are educational and your focus on only the dumbed down media is one sided because you have not taken into account the media that is educational.


There are, but people rarely watch them.

axilmar1

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1576

Report this Jul. 31 2009, 12:20 pm

Quote (Yanks @ July 31 2009, 11:36 am)
Quote (axilmar1 @ June 26 2009, 12:10 pm)
Quote (DarthRage @ June 26 2009, 11:31 am)
I hear that a lot from certain posters here concerning the new movie. I'm curious which Star Trek movies they consider were not dumbed down. Please explain why these movies were not considered dumbed down, so we can begin a discussion of compare and contrast.

It's simple: previous movies did not have such big plot holes/mistakes. They made more sense. They had a conclusion. A theme. A topic about humanity. A philosophical subject.

This new movie doesn't have anything like that. It's just flashy action without substance.

Even the so called 'overcome yourself, you have a destiny etc' is not developed enough. The action overshadows it.

I would almost agree here, but I think the movie accomplished exactly what it needed to. It brought the crew of the Enterprise together, and didn't slap the franchise in the face in the process.

The "story" was not the big draw or the main focus for this one.

I do hope that the next one has a great "Star Trek story". (and I think it needs one to be successful)

Yanks movie review

I agree with you. But I don't have high hopes for the next movie. It will still be an all action movie, since 'that's what the people want'...

PhantomCrunk007

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 5088

Report this Jul. 31 2009, 7:09 pm

Quote (axilmar1 @ July 30 2009, 9:20 pm)
Quote (Yanks @ July 31 2009, 11:36 am)
Quote (axilmar1 @ June 26 2009, 12:10 pm)
Quote (DarthRage @ June 26 2009, 11:31 am)
I hear that a lot from certain posters here concerning the new movie. I'm curious which Star Trek movies they consider were not dumbed down. Please explain why these movies were not considered dumbed down, so we can begin a discussion of compare and contrast.

It's simple: previous movies did not have such big plot holes/mistakes. They made more sense. They had a conclusion. A theme. A topic about humanity. A philosophical subject.

This new movie doesn't have anything like that. It's just flashy action without substance.

Even the so called 'overcome yourself, you have a destiny etc' is not developed enough. The action overshadows it.

I would almost agree here, but I think the movie accomplished exactly what it needed to. It brought the crew of the Enterprise together, and didn't slap the franchise in the face in the process.

The "story" was not the big draw or the main focus for this one.

I do hope that the next one has a great "Star Trek story". (and I think it needs one to be successful)

Yanks movie review

I agree with you. But I don't have high hopes for the next movie. It will still be an all action movie, since 'that's what the people want'...

Yup, the box office numbers and reviews seem to confirm that that is exactly what the people want.

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