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"Dumbing down"

Vger23

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 6799

Report this Jul. 29 2009, 12:02 pm

Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 29 2009, 11:34 am)
Quote (axilmar1 @ July 28 2009, 9:22 am)
Quote (Vger23 @ July 27 2009, 6:01 pm)
Quote (Vorta_the_point @ July 27 2009, 4:51 pm)
Quote (axilmar1 @ July 27 2009, 11:52 am)
TMP is brained up because it had a sci-fi mystery, not that Nero crap.

FC is brained up because of the Borg (an enemy like no other).

INS is brained up because of the message it carries.

I could probably go on and tell you something clever each movie has, except the last one, which was just like any other movie today, i.e. brainless and pop-corn entertainment.

The thing is though, what you are describing above is simply touching on an issue or message, not an intellectual discourse.

Most films do this in some way or another; from the depth of the issues you describe above, it could be argued that Star Wars Revenge of the Sith is 'brained up' as it deals with the issues of doing the wrong thing for the right reasons (the end justifies the means); possessive, selfish love in comparison to compassionate, altruistic love; the erosion of liberties in the name of security and the dangers of nationalism without check; the nature of betrayal and self-deception. All these themes exist in the movie. However, does having themes make it intellectual or 'brained up'?

Likewise, the new Star Trek film possesses it's own themes, just as the other Star Trek films do; it covers the issues of revenge and obsession, and most crucially the idea of rising above personal problems to fulfill your own potential. Indeed, one of the two main plots (the other being stopping Nero) revolves around this theme, that of the gradual turning of the alternate, disadvantaged, disillusioned Kirk from James T. Jerk into James T. Kirk - striving to better oneself, one of the central themes of Star Trek!

Dead-on.

For anyone to say "FC is brained-up" and try to pass it off by saying it's because the Borg were a good enemy is absolute self-denial and delusion.

You can find a "brained up" message in any movie if you really want to. I think you illustrated this perfectly. Again, those who WANT to dislike the movie will find ways to justify it because it's part of their agenda to prove themselves "right."

The reality is that there is a huge difference between "having a message" and "being intellectually relevant / challenging," as you have pointed out. And, if we're arguing "having a message" I think that the new movie had as much of a "message" as any of the others. I feel bad that there were people who may not have been open or sharp enough to catch it. As far as saying it's intellectually challenging or relevant...I really don't think that 90% of Star Trek falls into this category. Star Trek is smart and fun, but rarely intellectually relevant or challenging.

The ST movies aren't particularly intellectual, but the series are. That's natural, because in a series there is a lot of time to develop a message.

Even so, STXI's message (rising up to fulfill your own potential) is not something that concerns the pressing social problems we are facing right now.

Actually, "rising up to fulfill your own potential" is not even a message. A message contains a question, and analysis and a conclusion.

"rising up to fulfill your own potential" is a message when the characters in a movie successfully accomplish that.

While I agree that message is not one that is directed at society as a whole, but that message is a universal theme that everyone can relate to. All human beings have struggles within themselves that they need to rise above.

Star Trek has always been about positive messages and themes and I think Star Trek XI is congruent in demonstrating that hopeful and positive outlook even though it might be more on an individual level.


Star Trek also has many episodes were it dealt with individual growth and potential. The TNG episode Final Mission comes to mind. In that episode Wesley Crusher demonstrates how he has grown and matured in facing life threatening circumstances.

Agreed, ST.

As I have said before: To me, at its CORE, Star Trek has always been about mankind's ability to reach great potential by overcoming flaws and weaknesses that are inherently there and learning to grow beyond them.

I think Star Trek XI did a good job of addressing this core theme in the story of Kirk's character and also in the story of Kirk and Spock learning to come together and be greater than the sum of their parts (also a CORE theme / message in Star Trek).

SpaceTherapist

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 6370

Report this Jul. 29 2009, 12:08 pm

Quote (Vger23 @ July 28 2009, 1:02 pm)
Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 29 2009, 11:34 am)
Quote (axilmar1 @ July 28 2009, 9:22 am)
Quote (Vger23 @ July 27 2009, 6:01 pm)
Quote (Vorta_the_point @ July 27 2009, 4:51 pm)
Quote (axilmar1 @ July 27 2009, 11:52 am)
TMP is brained up because it had a sci-fi mystery, not that Nero crap.

FC is brained up because of the Borg (an enemy like no other).

INS is brained up because of the message it carries.

I could probably go on and tell you something clever each movie has, except the last one, which was just like any other movie today, i.e. brainless and pop-corn entertainment.

The thing is though, what you are describing above is simply touching on an issue or message, not an intellectual discourse.

Most films do this in some way or another; from the depth of the issues you describe above, it could be argued that Star Wars Revenge of the Sith is 'brained up' as it deals with the issues of doing the wrong thing for the right reasons (the end justifies the means); possessive, selfish love in comparison to compassionate, altruistic love; the erosion of liberties in the name of security and the dangers of nationalism without check; the nature of betrayal and self-deception. All these themes exist in the movie. However, does having themes make it intellectual or 'brained up'?

Likewise, the new Star Trek film possesses it's own themes, just as the other Star Trek films do; it covers the issues of revenge and obsession, and most crucially the idea of rising above personal problems to fulfill your own potential. Indeed, one of the two main plots (the other being stopping Nero) revolves around this theme, that of the gradual turning of the alternate, disadvantaged, disillusioned Kirk from James T. Jerk into James T. Kirk - striving to better oneself, one of the central themes of Star Trek!

Dead-on.

For anyone to say "FC is brained-up" and try to pass it off by saying it's because the Borg were a good enemy is absolute self-denial and delusion.

You can find a "brained up" message in any movie if you really want to. I think you illustrated this perfectly. Again, those who WANT to dislike the movie will find ways to justify it because it's part of their agenda to prove themselves "right."

The reality is that there is a huge difference between "having a message" and "being intellectually relevant / challenging," as you have pointed out. And, if we're arguing "having a message" I think that the new movie had as much of a "message" as any of the others. I feel bad that there were people who may not have been open or sharp enough to catch it. As far as saying it's intellectually challenging or relevant...I really don't think that 90% of Star Trek falls into this category. Star Trek is smart and fun, but rarely intellectually relevant or challenging.

The ST movies aren't particularly intellectual, but the series are. That's natural, because in a series there is a lot of time to develop a message.

Even so, STXI's message (rising up to fulfill your own potential) is not something that concerns the pressing social problems we are facing right now.

Actually, "rising up to fulfill your own potential" is not even a message. A message contains a question, and analysis and a conclusion.

"rising up to fulfill your own potential" is a message when the characters in a movie successfully accomplish that.

While I agree that message is not one that is directed at society as a whole, but that message is a universal theme that everyone can relate to. All human beings have struggles within themselves that they need to rise above.

Star Trek has always been about positive messages and themes and I think Star Trek XI is congruent in demonstrating that hopeful and positive outlook even though it might be more on an individual level.


Star Trek also has many episodes were it dealt with individual growth and potential. The TNG episode Final Mission comes to mind. In that episode Wesley Crusher demonstrates how he has grown and matured in facing life threatening circumstances.

Agreed, ST.

As I have said before: To me, at its CORE, Star Trek has always been about mankind's ability to reach great potential by overcoming flaws and weaknesses that are inherently there and learning to grow beyond them.

I think Star Trek XI did a good job of addressing this core theme in the story of Kirk's character and also in the story of Kirk and Spock learning to come together and be greater than the sum of their parts (also a CORE theme / message in Star Trek).

Agreed. And further, this movie specifically and all of Star Trek generally, demonstrates that the only way we can build that positive future is to put aside our differences and work together for the common good of all people.

Vger23

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 6799

Report this Jul. 29 2009, 12:18 pm

Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 29 2009, 12:08 pm)
Quote (Vger23 @ July 28 2009, 1:02 pm)
["rising up to fulfill your own potential" is a message when the characters in a movie successfully accomplish that.

While I agree that message is not one that is directed at society as a whole, but that message is a universal theme that everyone can relate to. All human beings have struggles within themselves that they need to rise above.

Star Trek has always been about positive messages and themes and I think Star Trek XI is congruent in demonstrating that hopeful and positive outlook even though it might be more on an individual level.


Star Trek also has many episodes were it dealt with individual growth and potential. The TNG episode Final Mission comes to mind. In that episode Wesley Crusher demonstrates how he has grown and matured in facing life threatening circumstances.

Agreed, ST.

As I have said before: To me, at its CORE, Star Trek has always been about mankind's ability to reach great potential by overcoming flaws and weaknesses that are inherently there and learning to grow beyond them.

I think Star Trek XI did a good job of addressing this core theme in the story of Kirk's character and also in the story of Kirk and Spock learning to come together and be greater than the sum of their parts (also a CORE theme / message in Star Trek).

Quote
Agreed. And further, this movie specifically and all of Star Trek generally, demonstrates that the only way we can build that positive future is to put aside our differences and work together for the common good of all people.



You know, the other element that really hasn't been discussed that REALLY resonated with me (especially because of my profession and my coaching background) is the importance of mentoring and/or having a parent-figure in someone's life, and how that kind of involvement can change so much of a person for the better.

When you think about Kirk having the lack of a father-figure / mentor and what kind of impact that had on his life, it really hits home. It also hits home when you see how the actions of one man (in this case, Captain Pike) who gives someone a chance and decides to take it upon himself to challenge and help guide a troubled young man like Kirk can REALLY make a difference. Not only did it make a difference in Kirk's life, but it clearly put Kirk back on the path he was on in the original timeline / universe to be someone who makes a considerable impact on history.


I think it's a great message for teachers, coaches, mentors, counselors, etc out there who dedicate their lives in what sometimes feels like a thankless task. It shows that those efforts really DO make a difference.

SpaceTherapist

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 6370

Report this Jul. 29 2009, 12:32 pm

> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 29 2009, 12:08 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (Vger23 @ July 28 2009, 1:02 pm)> id="QUOTE">["rising up to fulfill your own potential" is a message when the characters in a movie successfully accomplish that.

While I agree that message is not one that is directed at society as a whole, but that message is a universal theme that everyone can relate to. All human beings have struggles within themselves that they need to rise above.

Star Trek has always been about positive messages and themes and I think Star Trek XI is congruent in demonstrating that hopeful and positive outlook even though it might be more on an individual level.


Star Trek also has many episodes were it dealt with individual growth and potential. The TNG episode Final Mission comes to mind. In that episode Wesley Crusher demonstrates how he has grown and matured in facing life threatening circumstances.
border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (Vger23 @ July 28 2009, 1:18 pm)

Agreed, ST.

As I have said before: To me, at its CORE, Star Trek has always been about mankind's ability to reach great potential by overcoming flaws and weaknesses that are inherently there and learning to grow beyond them.

I think Star Trek XI did a good job of addressing this core theme in the story of Kirk's character and also in the story of Kirk and Spock learning to come together and be greater than the sum of their parts (also a CORE theme / message in Star Trek).

:)

Vger23

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 6799

Report this Jul. 29 2009, 12:37 pm

> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (Vger23 @ July 28 2009, 1:18 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 29 2009, 12:08 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (Vger23 @ July 28 2009, 1:02 pm)> id="QUOTE">["rising up to fulfill your own potential" is a message when the characters in a movie successfully accomplish that.

While I agree that message is not one that is directed at society as a whole, but that message is a universal theme that everyone can relate to. All human beings have struggles within themselves that they need to rise above.

Star Trek has always been about positive messages and themes and I think Star Trek XI is congruent in demonstrating that hopeful and positive outlook even though it might be more on an individual level.


Star Trek also has many episodes were it dealt with individual growth and potential. The TNG episode Final Mission comes to mind. In that episode Wesley Crusher demonstrates how he has grown and matured in facing life threatening circumstances.
border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 29 2009, 12:32 pm)

Agreed, ST.

As I have said before: To me, at its CORE, Star Trek has always been about mankind's ability to reach great potential by overcoming flaws and weaknesses that are inherently there and learning to grow beyond them.

I think Star Trek XI did a good job of addressing this core theme in the story of Kirk's character and also in the story of Kirk and Spock learning to come together and be greater than the sum of their parts (also a CORE theme / message in Star Trek).
:)
"Dumbed Down" indeed, eh ST??

;)  :cool:

rocketscientist

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 10054

Report this Jul. 29 2009, 12:48 pm

> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (Vger23 @ July 28 2009, 1:18 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 29 2009, 12:08 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (Vger23 @ July 28 2009, 1:02 pm)> id="QUOTE">["rising up to fulfill your own potential" is a message when the characters in a movie successfully accomplish that.

While I agree that message is not one that is directed at society as a whole, but that message is a universal theme that everyone can relate to. All human beings have struggles within themselves that they need to rise above.

Star Trek has always been about positive messages and themes and I think Star Trek XI is congruent in demonstrating that hopeful and positive outlook even though it might be more on an individual level.


Star Trek also has many episodes were it dealt with individual growth and potential. The TNG episode Final Mission comes to mind. In that episode Wesley Crusher demonstrates how he has grown and matured in facing life threatening circumstances.
border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 29 2009, 12:32 pm)

Agreed, ST.

As I have said before: To me, at its CORE, Star Trek has always been about mankind's ability to reach great potential by overcoming flaws and weaknesses that are inherently there and learning to grow beyond them.

I think Star Trek XI did a good job of addressing this core theme in the story of Kirk's character and also in the story of Kirk and Spock learning to come together and be greater than the sum of their parts (also a CORE theme / message in Star Trek).
:)
I agree.  Word!!

axilmar1

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1576

Report this Jul. 30 2009, 8:11 am

Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 29 2009, 11:34 am)
Quote (axilmar1 @ July 28 2009, 9:22 am)
Quote (Vger23 @ July 27 2009, 6:01 pm)
Quote (Vorta_the_point @ July 27 2009, 4:51 pm)
Quote (axilmar1 @ July 27 2009, 11:52 am)
TMP is brained up because it had a sci-fi mystery, not that Nero crap.

FC is brained up because of the Borg (an enemy like no other).

INS is brained up because of the message it carries.

I could probably go on and tell you something clever each movie has, except the last one, which was just like any other movie today, i.e. brainless and pop-corn entertainment.

The thing is though, what you are describing above is simply touching on an issue or message, not an intellectual discourse.

Most films do this in some way or another; from the depth of the issues you describe above, it could be argued that Star Wars Revenge of the Sith is 'brained up' as it deals with the issues of doing the wrong thing for the right reasons (the end justifies the means); possessive, selfish love in comparison to compassionate, altruistic love; the erosion of liberties in the name of security and the dangers of nationalism without check; the nature of betrayal and self-deception. All these themes exist in the movie. However, does having themes make it intellectual or 'brained up'?

Likewise, the new Star Trek film possesses it's own themes, just as the other Star Trek films do; it covers the issues of revenge and obsession, and most crucially the idea of rising above personal problems to fulfill your own potential. Indeed, one of the two main plots (the other being stopping Nero) revolves around this theme, that of the gradual turning of the alternate, disadvantaged, disillusioned Kirk from James T. Jerk into James T. Kirk - striving to better oneself, one of the central themes of Star Trek!

Dead-on.

For anyone to say "FC is brained-up" and try to pass it off by saying it's because the Borg were a good enemy is absolute self-denial and delusion.

You can find a "brained up" message in any movie if you really want to. I think you illustrated this perfectly. Again, those who WANT to dislike the movie will find ways to justify it because it's part of their agenda to prove themselves "right."

The reality is that there is a huge difference between "having a message" and "being intellectually relevant / challenging," as you have pointed out. And, if we're arguing "having a message" I think that the new movie had as much of a "message" as any of the others. I feel bad that there were people who may not have been open or sharp enough to catch it. As far as saying it's intellectually challenging or relevant...I really don't think that 90% of Star Trek falls into this category. Star Trek is smart and fun, but rarely intellectually relevant or challenging.

The ST movies aren't particularly intellectual, but the series are. That's natural, because in a series there is a lot of time to develop a message.

Even so, STXI's message (rising up to fulfill your own potential) is not something that concerns the pressing social problems we are facing right now.

Actually, "rising up to fulfill your own potential" is not even a message. A message contains a question, and analysis and a conclusion.

"rising up to fulfill your own potential" is a message when the characters in a movie successfully accomplish that.

While I agree that message is not one that is directed at society as a whole, but that message is a universal theme that everyone can relate to. All human beings have struggles within themselves that they need to rise above.

Star Trek has always been about positive messages and themes and I think Star Trek XI is congruent in demonstrating that hopeful and positive outlook even though it might be more on an individual level.


Star Trek also has many episodes were it dealt with individual growth and potential. The TNG episode Final Mission comes to mind. In that episode Wesley Crusher demonstrates how he has grown and matured in facing life threatening circumstances.

But it's not important. Even if all people on Earth fulfill their potentials, life wouldn't be better. It's the society that counts, not the individual.

Even if one considers the message you say as important, the movie did not do a good job at developing it. It did not show anything important, any conclusion that we might use for a basis of a conversation. We did not see any consequences of the inner struggle or anything like that.

axilmar1

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1576

Report this Jul. 30 2009, 8:13 am

Quote (Vger23 @ July 29 2009, 12:02 pm)
Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 29 2009, 11:34 am)
Quote (axilmar1 @ July 28 2009, 9:22 am)
Quote (Vger23 @ July 27 2009, 6:01 pm)
Quote (Vorta_the_point @ July 27 2009, 4:51 pm)
Quote (axilmar1 @ July 27 2009, 11:52 am)
TMP is brained up because it had a sci-fi mystery, not that Nero crap.

FC is brained up because of the Borg (an enemy like no other).

INS is brained up because of the message it carries.

I could probably go on and tell you something clever each movie has, except the last one, which was just like any other movie today, i.e. brainless and pop-corn entertainment.

The thing is though, what you are describing above is simply touching on an issue or message, not an intellectual discourse.

Most films do this in some way or another; from the depth of the issues you describe above, it could be argued that Star Wars Revenge of the Sith is 'brained up' as it deals with the issues of doing the wrong thing for the right reasons (the end justifies the means); possessive, selfish love in comparison to compassionate, altruistic love; the erosion of liberties in the name of security and the dangers of nationalism without check; the nature of betrayal and self-deception. All these themes exist in the movie. However, does having themes make it intellectual or 'brained up'?

Likewise, the new Star Trek film possesses it's own themes, just as the other Star Trek films do; it covers the issues of revenge and obsession, and most crucially the idea of rising above personal problems to fulfill your own potential. Indeed, one of the two main plots (the other being stopping Nero) revolves around this theme, that of the gradual turning of the alternate, disadvantaged, disillusioned Kirk from James T. Jerk into James T. Kirk - striving to better oneself, one of the central themes of Star Trek!

Dead-on.

For anyone to say "FC is brained-up" and try to pass it off by saying it's because the Borg were a good enemy is absolute self-denial and delusion.

You can find a "brained up" message in any movie if you really want to. I think you illustrated this perfectly. Again, those who WANT to dislike the movie will find ways to justify it because it's part of their agenda to prove themselves "right."

The reality is that there is a huge difference between "having a message" and "being intellectually relevant / challenging," as you have pointed out. And, if we're arguing "having a message" I think that the new movie had as much of a "message" as any of the others. I feel bad that there were people who may not have been open or sharp enough to catch it. As far as saying it's intellectually challenging or relevant...I really don't think that 90% of Star Trek falls into this category. Star Trek is smart and fun, but rarely intellectually relevant or challenging.

The ST movies aren't particularly intellectual, but the series are. That's natural, because in a series there is a lot of time to develop a message.

Even so, STXI's message (rising up to fulfill your own potential) is not something that concerns the pressing social problems we are facing right now.

Actually, "rising up to fulfill your own potential" is not even a message. A message contains a question, and analysis and a conclusion.

"rising up to fulfill your own potential" is a message when the characters in a movie successfully accomplish that.

While I agree that message is not one that is directed at society as a whole, but that message is a universal theme that everyone can relate to. All human beings have struggles within themselves that they need to rise above.

Star Trek has always been about positive messages and themes and I think Star Trek XI is congruent in demonstrating that hopeful and positive outlook even though it might be more on an individual level.


Star Trek also has many episodes were it dealt with individual growth and potential. The TNG episode Final Mission comes to mind. In that episode Wesley Crusher demonstrates how he has grown and matured in facing life threatening circumstances.

Agreed, ST.

As I have said before: To me, at its CORE, Star Trek has always been about mankind's ability to reach great potential by overcoming flaws and weaknesses that are inherently there and learning to grow beyond them.

I think Star Trek XI did a good job of addressing this core theme in the story of Kirk's character and also in the story of Kirk and Spock learning to come together and be greater than the sum of their parts (also a CORE theme / message in Star Trek).

Can you please analyze to us "the good job"? because the only think I saw was too people agreeing to do a certain task together, and nothing more.

I agree with you, Star Trek has always been about mankind's ability to reach great potential by overcoming flaws and weaknesses that are inherently there and learning to grow beyond them, but it concerns the society as a whole, not the individual.

axilmar1

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1576

Report this Jul. 30 2009, 8:16 am

> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 29 2009, 12:32 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (Vger23 @ July 28 2009, 1:18 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 29 2009, 12:08 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (Vger23 @ July 28 2009, 1:02 pm)> id="QUOTE">["rising up to fulfill your own potential" is a message when the characters in a movie successfully accomplish that.

While I agree that message is not one that is directed at society as a whole, but that message is a universal theme that everyone can relate to. All human beings have struggles within themselves that they need to rise above.

Star Trek has always been about positive messages and themes and I think Star Trek XI is congruent in demonstrating that hopeful and positive outlook even though it might be more on an individual level.


Star Trek also has many episodes were it dealt with individual growth and potential. The TNG episode Final Mission comes to mind. In that episode Wesley Crusher demonstrates how he has grown and matured in facing life threatening circumstances.
border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (Vger23 @ July 29 2009, 12:37 pm)

Agreed, ST.

As I have said before: To me, at its CORE, Star Trek has always been about mankind's ability to reach great potential by overcoming flaws and weaknesses that are inherently there and learning to grow beyond them.

I think Star Trek XI did a good job of addressing this core theme in the story of Kirk's character and also in the story of Kirk and Spock learning to come together and be greater than the sum of their parts (also a CORE theme / message in Star Trek).
:)
"Dumbed Down" indeed, eh ST??

;) ¿:cool:
It is dumbed down. The mentoring part of the script was 0.5% of the total script. The other 99.5% was about big explosions and bad humor.

SpaceTherapist

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 6370

Report this Jul. 30 2009, 9:19 am

Quote (axilmar1 @ July 29 2009, 9:11 am)
Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 29 2009, 11:34 am)
Quote (axilmar1 @ July 28 2009, 9:22 am)
Quote (Vger23 @ July 27 2009, 6:01 pm)
Quote (Vorta_the_point @ July 27 2009, 4:51 pm)
Quote (axilmar1 @ July 27 2009, 11:52 am)
TMP is brained up because it had a sci-fi mystery, not that Nero crap.

FC is brained up because of the Borg (an enemy like no other).

INS is brained up because of the message it carries.

I could probably go on and tell you something clever each movie has, except the last one, which was just like any other movie today, i.e. brainless and pop-corn entertainment.

The thing is though, what you are describing above is simply touching on an issue or message, not an intellectual discourse.

Most films do this in some way or another; from the depth of the issues you describe above, it could be argued that Star Wars Revenge of the Sith is 'brained up' as it deals with the issues of doing the wrong thing for the right reasons (the end justifies the means); possessive, selfish love in comparison to compassionate, altruistic love; the erosion of liberties in the name of security and the dangers of nationalism without check; the nature of betrayal and self-deception. All these themes exist in the movie. However, does having themes make it intellectual or 'brained up'?

Likewise, the new Star Trek film possesses it's own themes, just as the other Star Trek films do; it covers the issues of revenge and obsession, and most crucially the idea of rising above personal problems to fulfill your own potential. Indeed, one of the two main plots (the other being stopping Nero) revolves around this theme, that of the gradual turning of the alternate, disadvantaged, disillusioned Kirk from James T. Jerk into James T. Kirk - striving to better oneself, one of the central themes of Star Trek!

Dead-on.

For anyone to say "FC is brained-up" and try to pass it off by saying it's because the Borg were a good enemy is absolute self-denial and delusion.

You can find a "brained up" message in any movie if you really want to. I think you illustrated this perfectly. Again, those who WANT to dislike the movie will find ways to justify it because it's part of their agenda to prove themselves "right."

The reality is that there is a huge difference between "having a message" and "being intellectually relevant / challenging," as you have pointed out. And, if we're arguing "having a message" I think that the new movie had as much of a "message" as any of the others. I feel bad that there were people who may not have been open or sharp enough to catch it. As far as saying it's intellectually challenging or relevant...I really don't think that 90% of Star Trek falls into this category. Star Trek is smart and fun, but rarely intellectually relevant or challenging.

The ST movies aren't particularly intellectual, but the series are. That's natural, because in a series there is a lot of time to develop a message.

Even so, STXI's message (rising up to fulfill your own potential) is not something that concerns the pressing social problems we are facing right now.

Actually, "rising up to fulfill your own potential" is not even a message. A message contains a question, and analysis and a conclusion.

"rising up to fulfill your own potential" is a message when the characters in a movie successfully accomplish that.

While I agree that message is not one that is directed at society as a whole, but that message is a universal theme that everyone can relate to. All human beings have struggles within themselves that they need to rise above.

Star Trek has always been about positive messages and themes and I think Star Trek XI is congruent in demonstrating that hopeful and positive outlook even though it might be more on an individual level.


Star Trek also has many episodes were it dealt with individual growth and potential. The TNG episode Final Mission comes to mind. In that episode Wesley Crusher demonstrates how he has grown and matured in facing life threatening circumstances.

But it's not important. Even if all people on Earth fulfill their potentials, life wouldn't be better. It's the society that counts, not the individual.

Even if one considers the message you say as important, the movie did not do a good job at developing it. It did not show anything important, any conclusion that we might use for a basis of a conversation. We did not see any consequences of the inner struggle or anything like that.

Well, it was important to me. Overcoming personal struggles was satisfying for me. That issue is inspirational for me. I am fresh off watching Wrath of Khan this morning. I didn't see any universal themes of bettering society in that movie. It was all very individualistic and personal, themes of aging, friendship, revenge and how decisions from the past can come back home to roost.

I thought that the theme of overcoming personal struggles was handled well in the new movie. Yes it was wrapped in an entertaining action adventure story yet so was Wrath of Khan.

Vger23

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 6799

Report this Jul. 30 2009, 10:23 am

> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (Vger23 @ July 29 2009, 12:37 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 29 2009, 12:32 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (Vger23 @ July 28 2009, 1:18 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 29 2009, 12:08 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (Vger23 @ July 28 2009, 1:02 pm)> id="QUOTE">["rising up to fulfill your own potential" is a message when the characters in a movie successfully accomplish that.

While I agree that message is not one that is directed at society as a whole, but that message is a universal theme that everyone can relate to. All human beings have struggles within themselves that they need to rise above.

Star Trek has always been about positive messages and themes and I think Star Trek XI is congruent in demonstrating that hopeful and positive outlook even though it might be more on an individual level.


Star Trek also has many episodes were it dealt with individual growth and potential. The TNG episode Final Mission comes to mind. In that episode Wesley Crusher demonstrates how he has grown and matured in facing life threatening circumstances.
border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (axilmar1 @ July 30 2009, 8:16 am)

Agreed, ST.

As I have said before: To me, at its CORE, Star Trek has always been about mankind's ability to reach great potential by overcoming flaws and weaknesses that are inherently there and learning to grow beyond them.

I think Star Trek XI did a good job of addressing this core theme in the story of Kirk's character and also in the story of Kirk and Spock learning to come together and be greater than the sum of their parts (also a CORE theme / message in Star Trek).
:)
"Dumbed Down" indeed, eh ST??

;) ?:cool:
It is dumbed down. The mentoring part of the script was 0.5% of the total script. The other 99.5% was about big explosions and bad humor.
You see what you want to see, Axe...so talking to you is unfortunately sometimes like forcing oneself to eat a fecal sandwich (I'd imagine).

Anyone who says that "First Contact" is intellectual because it has a "good enemy" but denies everything we've discussed here as legitimate reasons for appreciating a film has serious reality problems (and further illustrates my belief that you are absolutely incapable of thinking any other way besides how you are conditioned or pre-disposed to view the world). I think I've said these things to you at least 20 times now, so you MUST know where I stand. Why you continue to try to engage me in discussion is beyond me. It makes no sense. I have no desire to discuss anything wth you at all. So, acting like you aren't aware of that, and popping up every now and then to get answers when you (and I, and everyone else) already know you're not going to like / accept / agree with those answers is a bit strange to me.

This is how I see it. It is not how you see it. Nothing will ever change either of those two facts.

Time to move on, buddy.

Vger23

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 6799

Report this Jul. 30 2009, 10:35 am

Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 30 2009, 9:19 am)
Quote (axilmar1 @ July 29 2009, 9:11 am)
Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 29 2009, 11:34 am)
Quote (axilmar1 @ July 28 2009, 9:22 am)
Quote (Vger23 @ July 27 2009, 6:01 pm)
Quote (Vorta_the_point @ July 27 2009, 4:51 pm)
Quote (axilmar1 @ July 27 2009, 11:52 am)
TMP is brained up because it had a sci-fi mystery, not that Nero crap.

FC is brained up because of the Borg (an enemy like no other).

INS is brained up because of the message it carries.

I could probably go on and tell you something clever each movie has, except the last one, which was just like any other movie today, i.e. brainless and pop-corn entertainment.

The thing is though, what you are describing above is simply touching on an issue or message, not an intellectual discourse.

Most films do this in some way or another; from the depth of the issues you describe above, it could be argued that Star Wars Revenge of the Sith is 'brained up' as it deals with the issues of doing the wrong thing for the right reasons (the end justifies the means); possessive, selfish love in comparison to compassionate, altruistic love; the erosion of liberties in the name of security and the dangers of nationalism without check; the nature of betrayal and self-deception. All these themes exist in the movie. However, does having themes make it intellectual or 'brained up'?

Likewise, the new Star Trek film possesses it's own themes, just as the other Star Trek films do; it covers the issues of revenge and obsession, and most crucially the idea of rising above personal problems to fulfill your own potential. Indeed, one of the two main plots (the other being stopping Nero) revolves around this theme, that of the gradual turning of the alternate, disadvantaged, disillusioned Kirk from James T. Jerk into James T. Kirk - striving to better oneself, one of the central themes of Star Trek!

Dead-on.

For anyone to say "FC is brained-up" and try to pass it off by saying it's because the Borg were a good enemy is absolute self-denial and delusion.

You can find a "brained up" message in any movie if you really want to. I think you illustrated this perfectly. Again, those who WANT to dislike the movie will find ways to justify it because it's part of their agenda to prove themselves "right."

The reality is that there is a huge difference between "having a message" and "being intellectually relevant / challenging," as you have pointed out. And, if we're arguing "having a message" I think that the new movie had as much of a "message" as any of the others. I feel bad that there were people who may not have been open or sharp enough to catch it. As far as saying it's intellectually challenging or relevant...I really don't think that 90% of Star Trek falls into this category. Star Trek is smart and fun, but rarely intellectually relevant or challenging.

The ST movies aren't particularly intellectual, but the series are. That's natural, because in a series there is a lot of time to develop a message.

Even so, STXI's message (rising up to fulfill your own potential) is not something that concerns the pressing social problems we are facing right now.

Actually, "rising up to fulfill your own potential" is not even a message. A message contains a question, and analysis and a conclusion.

"rising up to fulfill your own potential" is a message when the characters in a movie successfully accomplish that.

While I agree that message is not one that is directed at society as a whole, but that message is a universal theme that everyone can relate to. All human beings have struggles within themselves that they need to rise above.

Star Trek has always been about positive messages and themes and I think Star Trek XI is congruent in demonstrating that hopeful and positive outlook even though it might be more on an individual level.


Star Trek also has many episodes were it dealt with individual growth and potential. The TNG episode Final Mission comes to mind. In that episode Wesley Crusher demonstrates how he has grown and matured in facing life threatening circumstances.

But it's not important. Even if all people on Earth fulfill their potentials, life wouldn't be better. It's the society that counts, not the individual.

Even if one considers the message you say as important, the movie did not do a good job at developing it. It did not show anything important, any conclusion that we might use for a basis of a conversation. We did not see any consequences of the inner struggle or anything like that.

Well, it was important to me. Overcoming personal struggles was satisfying for me. That issue is inspirational for me.

You don't understand.

This is NOT an acceptable answer to this guy. In his world, his beliefs and what is "important" to him are OBJECTIVE and built around what he believes to be solid fact. What is "important" to you is subjective and irrational, particularly if it does not mesh with what is important to him, and is built soley around your inability to see reality clearly due to your lack of intellect.

This is LITERALLY the view of the world this guy has built for himself. It's a wonderful mechanism for self-assuredness and for putting oneself in a position to never be wrong. It is a never-ending and unwinnable scenario. He doesn't see it. He's never going to see it. His universe doesn't work that way.

It's frustrating. I feel bad that we haven't been able to come to a mutual understanding and just adapt a "live and let live" approach. I really don't understand. We have opposing views...ok...let's all move on.

axilmar1

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1576

Report this Jul. 30 2009, 11:58 am

Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 30 2009, 9:19 am)
Quote (axilmar1 @ July 29 2009, 9:11 am)
Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 29 2009, 11:34 am)
Quote (axilmar1 @ July 28 2009, 9:22 am)
Quote (Vger23 @ July 27 2009, 6:01 pm)
Quote (Vorta_the_point @ July 27 2009, 4:51 pm)
Quote (axilmar1 @ July 27 2009, 11:52 am)
TMP is brained up because it had a sci-fi mystery, not that Nero crap.

FC is brained up because of the Borg (an enemy like no other).

INS is brained up because of the message it carries.

I could probably go on and tell you something clever each movie has, except the last one, which was just like any other movie today, i.e. brainless and pop-corn entertainment.

The thing is though, what you are describing above is simply touching on an issue or message, not an intellectual discourse.

Most films do this in some way or another; from the depth of the issues you describe above, it could be argued that Star Wars Revenge of the Sith is 'brained up' as it deals with the issues of doing the wrong thing for the right reasons (the end justifies the means); possessive, selfish love in comparison to compassionate, altruistic love; the erosion of liberties in the name of security and the dangers of nationalism without check; the nature of betrayal and self-deception. All these themes exist in the movie. However, does having themes make it intellectual or 'brained up'?

Likewise, the new Star Trek film possesses it's own themes, just as the other Star Trek films do; it covers the issues of revenge and obsession, and most crucially the idea of rising above personal problems to fulfill your own potential. Indeed, one of the two main plots (the other being stopping Nero) revolves around this theme, that of the gradual turning of the alternate, disadvantaged, disillusioned Kirk from James T. Jerk into James T. Kirk - striving to better oneself, one of the central themes of Star Trek!

Dead-on.

For anyone to say "FC is brained-up" and try to pass it off by saying it's because the Borg were a good enemy is absolute self-denial and delusion.

You can find a "brained up" message in any movie if you really want to. I think you illustrated this perfectly. Again, those who WANT to dislike the movie will find ways to justify it because it's part of their agenda to prove themselves "right."

The reality is that there is a huge difference between "having a message" and "being intellectually relevant / challenging," as you have pointed out. And, if we're arguing "having a message" I think that the new movie had as much of a "message" as any of the others. I feel bad that there were people who may not have been open or sharp enough to catch it. As far as saying it's intellectually challenging or relevant...I really don't think that 90% of Star Trek falls into this category. Star Trek is smart and fun, but rarely intellectually relevant or challenging.

The ST movies aren't particularly intellectual, but the series are. That's natural, because in a series there is a lot of time to develop a message.

Even so, STXI's message (rising up to fulfill your own potential) is not something that concerns the pressing social problems we are facing right now.

Actually, "rising up to fulfill your own potential" is not even a message. A message contains a question, and analysis and a conclusion.

"rising up to fulfill your own potential" is a message when the characters in a movie successfully accomplish that.

While I agree that message is not one that is directed at society as a whole, but that message is a universal theme that everyone can relate to. All human beings have struggles within themselves that they need to rise above.

Star Trek has always been about positive messages and themes and I think Star Trek XI is congruent in demonstrating that hopeful and positive outlook even though it might be more on an individual level.


Star Trek also has many episodes were it dealt with individual growth and potential. The TNG episode Final Mission comes to mind. In that episode Wesley Crusher demonstrates how he has grown and matured in facing life threatening circumstances.

But it's not important. Even if all people on Earth fulfill their potentials, life wouldn't be better. It's the society that counts, not the individual.

Even if one considers the message you say as important, the movie did not do a good job at developing it. It did not show anything important, any conclusion that we might use for a basis of a conversation. We did not see any consequences of the inner struggle or anything like that.

Well, it was important to me. Overcoming personal struggles was satisfying for me. That issue is inspirational for me. I am fresh off watching Wrath of Khan this morning. I didn't see any universal themes of bettering society in that movie. It was all very individualistic and personal, themes of aging, friendship, revenge and how decisions from the past can come back home to roost.

I thought that the theme of overcoming personal struggles was handled well in the new movie. Yes it was wrapped in an entertaining action adventure story yet so was Wrath of Khan.

Ok, for you then STXI was ok. What about the masses? there should be a message for the masses as well.

axilmar1

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1576

Report this Jul. 30 2009, 12:01 pm

> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (axilmar1 @ July 30 2009, 8:16 am)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (Vger23 @ July 29 2009, 12:37 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 29 2009, 12:32 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (Vger23 @ July 28 2009, 1:18 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 29 2009, 12:08 pm)> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (Vger23 @ July 28 2009, 1:02 pm)> id="QUOTE">["rising up to fulfill your own potential" is a message when the characters in a movie successfully accomplish that.

While I agree that message is not one that is directed at society as a whole, but that message is a universal theme that everyone can relate to. All human beings have struggles within themselves that they need to rise above.

Star Trek has always been about positive messages and themes and I think Star Trek XI is congruent in demonstrating that hopeful and positive outlook even though it might be more on an individual level.


Star Trek also has many episodes were it dealt with individual growth and potential. The TNG episode Final Mission comes to mind. In that episode Wesley Crusher demonstrates how he has grown and matured in facing life threatening circumstances.
border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (Vger23 @ July 30 2009, 10:23 am)

Agreed, ST.

As I have said before: To me, at its CORE, Star Trek has always been about mankind's ability to reach great potential by overcoming flaws and weaknesses that are inherently there and learning to grow beyond them.

I think Star Trek XI did a good job of addressing this core theme in the story of Kirk's character and also in the story of Kirk and Spock learning to come together and be greater than the sum of their parts (also a CORE theme / message in Star Trek).
:)
"Dumbed Down" indeed, eh ST??

;) ?:cool:
It is dumbed down. The mentoring part of the script was 0.5% of the total script. The other 99.5% was about big explosions and bad humor.
You see what you want to see, Axe...so talking to you is unfortunately sometimes like forcing oneself to eat a fecal sandwich (I'd imagine).

Anyone who says that "First Contact" is intellectual because it has a "good enemy" but denies everything we've discussed here as legitimate reasons for appreciating a film has serious reality problems (and further illustrates my belief that you are absolutely incapable of thinking any other way besides how you are conditioned or pre-disposed to view the world). I think I've said these things to you at least 20 times now, so you MUST know where I stand. Why you continue to try to engage me in discussion is beyond me. It makes no sense. I have no desire to discuss anything wth you at all. So, acting like you aren't aware of that, and popping up every now and then to get answers when you (and I, and everyone else) already know you're not going to like / accept / agree with those answers is a bit strange to me.

This is how I see it. It is not how you see it. Nothing will ever change either of those two facts.

Time to move on, buddy.
So me saying the mentoring part was 0.5% of the movie is 'seeing what I want to see'? If an entire movie contains no message, except for a few scenes, that does not make the movie intellectual.

When I said the Borg were a 'good enemy', I meant a lot of things. There is a tremendous depth to the Borg, and a lot of symbolism.

axilmar1

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1576

Report this Jul. 30 2009, 12:02 pm

Quote (Vger23 @ July 30 2009, 10:35 am)
Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 30 2009, 9:19 am)
Quote (axilmar1 @ July 29 2009, 9:11 am)
Quote (SpaceTherapist @ July 29 2009, 11:34 am)
Quote (axilmar1 @ July 28 2009, 9:22 am)
Quote (Vger23 @ July 27 2009, 6:01 pm)
Quote (Vorta_the_point @ July 27 2009, 4:51 pm)
Quote (axilmar1 @ July 27 2009, 11:52 am)
TMP is brained up because it had a sci-fi mystery, not that Nero crap.

FC is brained up because of the Borg (an enemy like no other).

INS is brained up because of the message it carries.

I could probably go on and tell you something clever each movie has, except the last one, which was just like any other movie today, i.e. brainless and pop-corn entertainment.

The thing is though, what you are describing above is simply touching on an issue or message, not an intellectual discourse.

Most films do this in some way or another; from the depth of the issues you describe above, it could be argued that Star Wars Revenge of the Sith is 'brained up' as it deals with the issues of doing the wrong thing for the right reasons (the end justifies the means); possessive, selfish love in comparison to compassionate, altruistic love; the erosion of liberties in the name of security and the dangers of nationalism without check; the nature of betrayal and self-deception. All these themes exist in the movie. However, does having themes make it intellectual or 'brained up'?

Likewise, the new Star Trek film possesses it's own themes, just as the other Star Trek films do; it covers the issues of revenge and obsession, and most crucially the idea of rising above personal problems to fulfill your own potential. Indeed, one of the two main plots (the other being stopping Nero) revolves around this theme, that of the gradual turning of the alternate, disadvantaged, disillusioned Kirk from James T. Jerk into James T. Kirk - striving to better oneself, one of the central themes of Star Trek!

Dead-on.

For anyone to say "FC is brained-up" and try to pass it off by saying it's because the Borg were a good enemy is absolute self-denial and delusion.

You can find a "brained up" message in any movie if you really want to. I think you illustrated this perfectly. Again, those who WANT to dislike the movie will find ways to justify it because it's part of their agenda to prove themselves "right."

The reality is that there is a huge difference between "having a message" and "being intellectually relevant / challenging," as you have pointed out. And, if we're arguing "having a message" I think that the new movie had as much of a "message" as any of the others. I feel bad that there were people who may not have been open or sharp enough to catch it. As far as saying it's intellectually challenging or relevant...I really don't think that 90% of Star Trek falls into this category. Star Trek is smart and fun, but rarely intellectually relevant or challenging.

The ST movies aren't particularly intellectual, but the series are. That's natural, because in a series there is a lot of time to develop a message.

Even so, STXI's message (rising up to fulfill your own potential) is not something that concerns the pressing social problems we are facing right now.

Actually, "rising up to fulfill your own potential" is not even a message. A message contains a question, and analysis and a conclusion.

"rising up to fulfill your own potential" is a message when the characters in a movie successfully accomplish that.

While I agree that message is not one that is directed at society as a whole, but that message is a universal theme that everyone can relate to. All human beings have struggles within themselves that they need to rise above.

Star Trek has always been about positive messages and themes and I think Star Trek XI is congruent in demonstrating that hopeful and positive outlook even though it might be more on an individual level.


Star Trek also has many episodes were it dealt with individual growth and potential. The TNG episode Final Mission comes to mind. In that episode Wesley Crusher demonstrates how he has grown and matured in facing life threatening circumstances.

But it's not important. Even if all people on Earth fulfill their potentials, life wouldn't be better. It's the society that counts, not the individual.

Even if one considers the message you say as important, the movie did not do a good job at developing it. It did not show anything important, any conclusion that we might use for a basis of a conversation. We did not see any consequences of the inner struggle or anything like that.

Well, it was important to me. Overcoming personal struggles was satisfying for me. That issue is inspirational for me.

You don't understand.

This is NOT an acceptable answer to this guy. In his world, his beliefs and what is "important" to him are OBJECTIVE and built around what he believes to be solid fact. What is "important" to you is subjective and irrational, particularly if it does not mesh with what is important to him, and is built soley around your inability to see reality clearly due to your lack of intellect.

This is LITERALLY the view of the world this guy has built for himself. It's a wonderful mechanism for self-assuredness and for putting oneself in a position to never be wrong. It is a never-ending and unwinnable scenario. He doesn't see it. He's never going to see it. His universe doesn't work that way.

It's frustrating. I feel bad that we haven't been able to come to a mutual understanding and just adapt a "live and let live" approach. I really don't understand. We have opposing views...ok...let's all move on.


You are overreacting. I do understand and appreciate your own personal views.

What I am interested about is the message spread to the viewers. I am sure everyone has his own thoughts about the movie, but as we leave in a society that one's actions affect all the others, it's important to have a message for the society in general.

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