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Alternate realities

stovokor2000-A

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POSTS: 2001

Report this Dec. 15 2011, 9:28 pm

If Sarek's going to admit to loving his wife after she died then why not admit to it when she was alive? Vulcans would never say that they love someone since that's admitting to having an emotion. Since he's admitting to it after she died he is therefore more emotional by movie's end. Sarek Prime never used the word "love" so to me that showed he was less emotional.


thats a very limited way to view the issue, one need not say "I love you" to express love for a person.


And like wise, saying "I love you" is no indication that the person saying it understands what love is.


Sarek Prime expressed his love on more then 1 occasion


Vulcans aren't devoid of emotions but constantly suppress them instead of coming to terms with them or admitting to them. If old Spock is suggesting to come to terms with how he's feeling then that's no longer suppressing emotions.


Again, thats a very limited way to look at the issue.


Spock prime casme to terms with his feelings long ago, and he continued suppressing his emotions.


Also, I don't think that when young Spock was listening to his father & old Spock that he let what they said go in one ear & out the other. It's clear there that he took to heart what they said. Young Spock and Sarek should be more emotional by the next movie if they maintain continuity.


to coin a phrase, you conclusion is not logical.


like I sasid above, Sarek Prime expressd love on more thren 1 occasion, Spock Prime casme to terms with his feelings long ago.


neither stopped suppressing their emotions.


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Captain Caloocan

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POSTS: 14

Report this Dec. 17 2011, 5:06 pm


These are definitely not limited ways to look at these issues.


It's throughout all of the series that Vulcans suppress their emotions and they continue to do so in pursuit of being Vulcan. I'm pointing out what has already been laid out for years in Star Trek.


I do remember Sarek in TNG episodes. His illness showed that he was no longer capable of suppressing his emotions, which he did for all of his life. Vulcans can have emotions but they constantly suppress them & constantly tell themselves that everything they do is for a logical reason.


You can't come to terms with your feelings and then suppress them. It's one or the other. Coming to terms with feelings is accepting them. Once you've accepted them then you can't suppress them since there's no longer a need to do so. By suppressing emotions you're preventing yourself to accept them & also to express yourself of those feelings.


This is basic psychology. You can look it up and here's just one example.


http://bpd.about.com/od/livingwithbpd/a/accept.htm


Old Spock suggested to young Spock for him to come to terms with his feelings which is what old Spock never did. He suggested this because he saw that young Spock was already on a different path due to his mother's death.


It's mentioned throughout all of the series that for Vulcans an emotional response is not a logical one. If they do have an emotional response then they are going against everything that they are constantly training themselves for, which is to be purely logical.


Admitting to an emotion is also accepting it. Or Coming to terms with it. When they do display an emotion they won't admit to it. One example is the ending of TOS The Galileo Seven. Here Spock didn't admit to acting desperately.


Since Sarek did use the word "love" in Wrath of Khan then the writers either messed up or Sarek only gets emotional when someone dies.


It's apparent that young Spock took to heart what was told to him by old Spock & his father. Otherwise why have those scenes in the first place? The deaths of so many Vulcans should have a huge effect on the remaining poplulation, which is why they should be more emotional in the next movie. If Spock & Sarek had such a hard time dealing with Amanda's death, displaying sadness & anger, then why wouldn't this happen to the remaining survivors who would all have to deal with losing loved ones and their whole planet? If young Spock didn't lose his mother then he would end up just like old Spock, suppressing emotions while in pursuit of being Vulcan.

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Dec. 17 2011, 6:55 pm

To beging with, Sarek wasnt in Wrath of Khan, you might want to do a bit of research or double checking before you post.


Also, your link didnt help your argument in any way, it spoke about the benifits of dealing and expressing emotions, not that its impossible to accept them and still suppress acting on them.

These do indeed seem to be limited a way to look at these issues.....and a bit naive as well.While Vulcans have  outwardly suppressd their emotions they have always expressed emotion in many ways.That was true in TOS and continued to be true in the spin offs.

Prime Sarek expressed many emotions and not just when people died.He expressed love and pride in his son, love for his wife, anger/disapointment at Kirk for leaving his son's body on a alien world, sadness/regret that his sons life cost Kirk the life of his own son, the loss of his ship , he expressed all that emotion long before his illness took hold.

Tuvok expressed agitation,frustration,annoyance and even at time, anger for Nelix.

T'pal expressed desire, even if in learning, the desire to stay with the crew of humans, disappointment in the actions of her government,

I could go on but my point is made.
 
One can certinly come to terms with your feelings and then suppress them at the same time, 20 years of marrige and being the father of 3 girls has shown me that.Not to mention that we have seen thast in Trek.Coming to terms with feelings is indeed accepting them, but it doesnt mean thsat you must act on those feeling or outwardly express them.One can come to terms with the feeling of anger, but not express any, act on it.You can accept feeling anger and still suppress it, not act on it..........and the same goes for any part of the emotinal specturm.

This is basic psychology.....any psychology teacher would tell you as much, it might not be healthy to do it all the time, but it certinly can be done. You can look it up and here's just one example.

Old Spock suggested to young Spock for him to come to terms with his feelings, which is something old Spock did long ago, or have you forgotten Star Trek 4???
Sarek asked him if he had anything to tell his mother, he replied "tell her I feel fine "him telling his father  in choosing starfleet as a life he was choosing to go with his feel..........I can provide pleanty of more examples, but that one proves my point best.Old Spock only told young Spock to do what it took longer for him to do himself....and that was the reason for the scene.

Vulcans may have said an emotional response is not a logical one..........but yet they did so at just about every chance.The deaths of so many Vulcans should have a huge effect on the remaining poplulation, but its hardly any reason for them to stop suppressing their emotions as you suggest.


I'm sorry but I'll say it again, acting more emotinal may be a possibility, but none of your examples indicat that as a certinly.


 


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guillermo.mejía

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POSTS: 2852

Report this Dec. 19 2011, 9:17 am

It's throughout all of the series that Vulcans suppress their emotions and they continue to do so in pursuit of being Vulcan. I'm pointing out what has already been laid out for years in Star Trek.


Not throughout all the series. ENT depicts Vulcans who are hypocritical, bygots and with a sense of superiorty that can only come from egotism. Add to that the fact that save for Spock, Sarek, Sybok, Saavik, Valeris, Surak and the episode Amok Time, we never get an accurate picture of how Vulcan act as a race during the TOS Era. Who's to say that have compltely changed their ways in the past century and now devotely follow the path of Surak, or there are still fragments that have not been brought it. Also, most of what has been laid out about Vulcans in Star Trek for the TOS Era is from an outsider's point of view...what the Vulcans want known.


And I'd like to pint out that save Sarek and arguably Valeris, what we get from 23rd Century Vulcans is a much more emotional group than 24th Century Vulcans, by their own standards of course.


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Dec. 19 2011, 10:23 am

Quote: guillermo.mejía @ Dec. 19 2011, 9:17 am

>And I'd like to pint out that save Sarek and arguably Valeris, what we get from 23rd Century Vulcans is a much more emotional group than 24th Century Vulcans, by their own standards of course.


you know, when you think about it I think we saw a good emount of emotion from the 24th century vulcans as well.


Tuvok shows some emotions very often.


Tallera from TNG's Gambit diaplayed a wide range of emotions


Solok from DS9's ,Take Me Out to the Holosuite, showed feelings of superiorty,smugness, confusion and fustration


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guillermo.mejía

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POSTS: 2852

Report this Dec. 19 2011, 12:10 pm

Quote: stovokor2000-A @ Dec. 19 2011, 10:23 am

Quote: guillermo.mejía @ Dec. 19 2011, 9:17 am

>

>And I'd like to pint out that save Sarek and arguably Valeris, what we get from 23rd Century Vulcans is a much more emotional group than 24th Century Vulcans, by their own standards of course.

you know, when you think about it I think we saw a good emount of emotion from the 24th century vulcans as well.

Tuvok shows some emotions very often.

Tallera from TNG's Gambit diaplayed a wide range of emotions

Solok from DS9's ,Take Me Out to the Holosuite, showed feelings of superiorty,smugness, confusion and fustration

Now that we have ENT, Solok's smug superor attitude seems to be the norm for Vulcans, rather than the exception we believed it to be 15+ years ago. You can tell that Solok seems to enjoy pushing Sisko's buttons, at least that's the impression I got from him.


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

Captain Caloocan

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 14

Report this Dec. 19 2011, 1:15 pm

If you accept that you're angry then you're admitting it to yourself, whether you express it outwardly or not. Not acting on it doesn't mean that you're suppressing it. A Vulcan won't admit to being angry and instead he'll tell himself that it's illogical to have this emotion. When they suppress it they push it away from their minds. Once you accept/admit to it then it's going to stay with you whether or not you express it outwardly. You still have to deal with your anger one way or another instead of trying to push it out of your mind. Vulcans have always shown displays of emotion but like I've mentioned earlier, when Vulcans do display an emotion they won't admit to it. Since they won't admit to emotions then they're not accepting it, which is also coming to terms with it. This is basic psychology. Vulcans strive to be like Data in TNG but they truly can't be. Data mentioned to Spock that Spock has abandoned everything that Data is pursuing. That little conversation between them really defined what Vulcans are all about. They can show emotion, not admit to them, & strive to be like Data all they want & never really get there.

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Dec. 19 2011, 7:24 pm

If you accept that you're angry then you're admitting it to yourself, whether you express it outwardly or not.

Which is my point here.You claimed that Sarek saying he loved his wife proves he going to start acting more outwardly emotional............and your wrong.One can accept, admit emotion to one's self with out acting on it, while still suppressing it.


Not acting on it doesn't mean that you're suppressing it. A Vulcan won't admit to being angry and instead he'll tell himself that it's illogical to have this emotion.When they suppress it they push it away from their minds


Correction, they just dont push it out of their minds with little to no effort.......when they suppress it they are admitting and accepting the emotion,A Vulcan doesnt publicly admit to the emotions, but still admits it to him/herself that the emotion exsists and that it must be suppressed.

Suppression is a deliberate act that must be chosen on, and it take a great amount of will to suppress any emotion, you cant choose to suppress emotion with out accepting and admiting that it exsist and must be suppressed.

Vulcans have always shown displays of emotion but like I've mentioned earlier, when Vulcans do display an emotion they won't admit to it.

Again, they dont publicly admit to it, but they cant suppress it with out admiting it and accepting it to themselfs.

Data mentioned to Spock that Spock has abandoned everything that Data is pursuing. That little conversation between them really defined what Vulcans are all about. They can show emotion, not admit to them, & strive to be like Data all they want & never really get there.

Thanks for proving my case.

How did that conversation end????????, with Spock saying he had "NO REGRETS".........which is a human emotional expression.Regret is called by some in the psychosocial field of study as "The Cruelest Emotion" So, according to you, the conversation that defines WHAT a Vulcan is all about, was a conversation that Spock admitted to understanding the emotion of regret.


And you really cant understand an emotion like Regret with out one experancing it.No less, Spock, indirectly, amitted to having feelings of Regret with involving Kirk and his crew when he helped the Klingons.


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guillermo.mejía

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POSTS: 2852

Report this Dec. 20 2011, 12:22 pm

That little conversation between them really defined what Vulcans are all about.


Without adding to much, that little conversation really defined what SPOCK was all about, not the entire Vulcan population. To addandone it must me that one fully had it. Most Vulcans, as stated previously, don't allow themselves to fully experiance or express emotions, therefore they do not posses what Data is after.


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

Captain Caloocan

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 14

Report this Dec. 21 2011, 4:03 pm

I have contacted 2 professional psychologists, each with a Ph.D., and asked them to confirm whether or not this is right.


"The moment a person comes to terms with their emotions they've already admitted to and accepted them. They've already accepted those emotions as a part of them and therefore they can no longer be suppressed. Suppressing emotions prevents them from being accepted. If they think they've come to terms with their emotions and then think they're suppressing them afterwards then they haven't truly admitted to their emotions in the first place."


Both of them have confirmed that I am absolutley correct.

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Dec. 21 2011, 6:50 pm

oooooo, I guess I should just accept what you clasim right????or maybe I should tell you that one of my best friends is a professional psychologist, so is his wife and both kids,all 4 them have confirmed that I am absolutely correct???I'm sorry if this sounds rude.........but If you cant give strength to your argument using your own knowledge, research and life zperance then maybe you shouldnt try debating on such topics.

I studied the field myself.You can not suppress anger until you have accepted it exists and acknowledge it needs to be suppressed, you can not suppress love ontill accepted it exists and you acknowledge a need to suppress it.
You can not suppress any emotion until you have accepted it exists and acknowledge it needs to be suppressed,Its just like alcoholism, you cant get help for it until you admit to yourself that you have it, that you need help to suppress it.

Yes,The moment a person comes to terms with their emotions they've already admitted to and accepted to themselfs. .............. and they still can suppress any outward sign of that emotion.Prove of that is how frustrated with this topic I feel right now, I have come to terms with that frustration, I have admitted it to my self, it is a part of me, but I'm suppressing any outward sign of this emotion.I feel like taking my computer and smashing it against the wall...........but I'm suppressing that feeling.No one here can tell I'm so frustrated.

The bottom line is that you cant suppress an emotion until you have accepted that they exist, that they are a part of you.Suppressing it may not be healthy for you [humans], but you can suppress them until you acknowledge it.And thats what the Vulcans have been doing all along...which is exactly what a Vulcan master told a young emotional Tuvok in the Voyager episode "Gravity".Heres the dialog.


Young Tuvok: If I was meant to deny feelings, why was I born with them? Where is the logic in that?
Vulcan Master: Hidden for you to find - or in plain sight for you to ignore.
Young Tuvok: you speak in riddles because the truth frightens you
Vulcan Master:your right....it does frighten me.
Young Tuvok: [looks surprised]
Vulcan Master: you are supprised to hear a Vulcan master admit to having emotion???
Young Tuvok: yes...
Vulcan Master: Emotions can be a powerful tool. To deny their existence is illogical. But you must learn to control them.
Young Tuvok: Why?
Vulcan Master: Do you wish to be taught?
Young Tuvok: I would question everything you say.
Vulcan Master: You would not be a worthy pupil otherwise.


later in that same episode


Tom Parsis; Everyone feels a little insane when they fall in love.......but its worth the risk
Adult Tuvok; For you perhaps............but I am Vulcan, my natural emotions are erratic,volatile, if I dont control them, they will control me


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Captain Caloocan

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POSTS: 14

Report this Dec. 22 2011, 9:48 pm


I'm going to end this right now. I have given strength to my argument and you don't know me so there's no need to overreact. Also, why bother to say "I'm sorry if this sounds rude" since you already are? And you already have been rude more than once. First off you misunderstood my very first comment and fired off at me and used a comment like "shortsighted". It took numerous postings for you actually understand my overall point. You apologized, apology accepted. Then you don't fully understand the meaning of "restore" and attacked me on that one. We can disagree on the use of that word but here's a more expansive definition of that word than the definition that you posted.


re·store


verb (used with object), -stored, -stor·ing.


1. to bring back into existence, use, or the like; reestablish: to restore order.


2. to bring back to a former, original, or normal condition, as a building, statue, or painting.


3. to bring back to a state of health, soundness, or vigor.


4. to put back to a former place, or to a former position, rank, etc.: to restore the king to his throne.


5. to give back; make return or restitution of (anything taken away or lost).



2.  mend. See renew. 4.  replace, reinstate. 6.  rebuild.


It's synonymous with "replace" & "rebuild", so you can replace/rebuild a building or history and "no changes" is not implied. Restoring a painting is also in there. You have your opinion and I've got mine. Enough of that one.


Then after my opinion on the Vulcans you're using "limited view". So your rudeness is uncalled for. Check all of my posts and you'll see that none of them have warranted any rudeness or attacks. I was trying to keep comments related to the "alternate realities" topic for this board but you wanted to drag it into another direction. You can over complicate and over analyze the Vulcans all you want. I have a different viewpoint on them. You talked with the psychologists that support your understanding of emotions and you have your opinions. I've communicated with professional psychologists who confirmed my understanding of accepting and suppressing emotions so I have my opinions. With this understanding I just don't agree with any of your opinions on the matter and that's that. No big deal to me but I guess to you it is. Your last posting shows that. In the grand scheme of things this is just a silly Star trek debate. Look, I don't know you and I don't know if you've got issues that would prompt you to react in this manner on a debate on science fiction with someone that you don't know, but I'll say this - you shouldn't be rude and overreacting to this. Take care, happy holidays, and watch some Star Trek with your family.

stovokor2000-A

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 2001

Report this Dec. 23 2011, 10:40 am

you can end this is you like, and I have over reacted to anything you said bud, but pointing out what someone else told you is not giveing strength to your own argument on your own.

And your right, I dont know you, but nothing I said implies that I do, and I nothing I said was intended to have been rude in any way,I attacked no one, I just simplely question the things posted here when they dont make sense,Saying you seem to have a "limited view" isint rude, its my honest assessment of what you posted.........so please dont take anything said here personally.

We dont have to agree on anything, I'm just trying to have fun debating the issues, I enjoy this stuff, if you dont...or feel like its getting personal we can not do it anymore, its a shame but its cool.Its no big deal to me either.In my last post I was just trying to make a point about how emotions can be suppressed and still accepted.

Just answer this, have you ever felt mad enough abut something or someone that you wanted to hit it or them....but controlled yourself??

If so, that is an example of you admitting to yourself that you have the emotion, that you have accepted it, took ownership of it and decided it needed to be suppressed and did so.

This is what we have been told the Vulcans do.You can over generalize and simplify the Vulcans all you want, but it doesnt "jive" with what we have been told about the Vulcsans all these years.

Have a happy holiday season, enjoy and have fun in everything you do.


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kVerna

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POSTS: 2

Report this Jan. 19 2012, 12:08 am

i ahve nothing agains alternative realities as long as it's well done.


otherwis it's just confusuingby the by: who knows how to change avater picture?p.s. i am new here


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guillermo.mejía

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POSTS: 2852

Report this Jan. 19 2012, 5:54 am

Welcome then.


"Aye. And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon." - Scotty, The Miracle Worker since 2265.

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