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Warp Drive Possible?

Section31StationChief

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Report this May. 07 2009, 1:01 am

http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20090506/sc_space/startrekswarpdrivenotimpossible

Interesting set of links in this article. I would imagine that a good portion of the topics covered are more less old news to a good number of those who post here regularly.

Interesting though that main stream physicists and publications are reporting on FTL "theory."

I have the feeling we just might read of breakthrough research in the next say 10-20 years.

lanceromega

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Report this May. 07 2009, 10:44 am

Quote (Section31StationChief @ May 06 2009, 2:01 am)
http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20090506/sc_space/startrekswarpdrivenotimpossible

Interesting set of links in this article. I would imagine that a good portion of the topics covered are more less old news to a good number of those who post here regularly.

Interesting though that main stream physicists and publications are reporting on FTL "theory."

I have the feeling we just might read of breakthrough research in the next say 10-20 years.

10 or 20 years? doubt it most papers on the subject require the mass energy of jupiter ¿for a warp driven spacecraft...

maybe the next 100 to 200 years..

Section31StationChief

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Report this May. 07 2009, 2:18 pm

I've glanced over that "mass of Jupiter" paper also.

I believe it was the mass of Jupiter, in exotic matter, must be converted to energy every second just to move a spacecraft the size of the old Apolo module 10 meters!!! at light speed.

In the 10 to 20 yrs timeframe I was taking a very liberal appraoch to what we might learn from the LHC in Swizterland.

I wonder if someday we'll be devising a version of "Mores Law" to physics.

Were definitly still at the theoretical stage, heres to hoping we get to experimental in my lifetime. I'm in my early 30's so their may be something like a 1 in a 1000 shot at this.

lanceromega

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Report this May. 07 2009, 2:58 pm

Quote (Section31StationChief @ May 06 2009, 3:18 pm)
I've glanced over that "mass of Jupiter" paper also.

I believe it was the mass of Jupiter, in exotic matter, must be converted to energy every second just to move a spacecraft the size of the old Apolo module 10 meters!!! at light speed.

In the 10 to 20 yrs timeframe I was taking a very liberal appraoch to what we might learn from the LHC in Swizterland.

I wonder if someday we'll be devising a version of "Mores Law" to physics.

Were definitly still at the theoretical stage, heres to hoping we get to experimental in my lifetime. I'm in my early 30's so their may be something like a 1 in a 1000 shot at this.

the LHC in switzland is down till next year, and the scale of energy between that need to Warp space on any level and what Cern will be putting out is around Billion to one.

We spent just 20 years proving cold fusion, 30 year fooling around with String and Mbrane theory, 25 years in the famous Blackhole wars of Hawking and Suskind ( While Hawking has admitted defeat, there are many Relativitic Physicist that are continuing the battle).

When CERN is finally up,it can take decades to go thru all the data.

Unlike Computers chips, advancement in the science is unpredictable, it based on deadends and budget battles that can bury advancement for decades. As it stand we have not really advance on the Theory end in physics for at least 30 years, while on the engineering end we have made massive advancements..

Hopefully this century we will see massive advancement, there is already proof that low energy monopole exist, While CERN can at least point us to the Correct GUT scheme. Warp drive will require A detail theory of Quantum Gravity which we are just Scratching the surface of.

GrandLunar2007

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Report this May. 08 2009, 7:13 am

To save the effort of copy and paste...

http://news.yahoo.com/s....ossible

Indeed, this is a technology that is not likely to happen in our lifetimes.

I agree with Lance that it's 100-200 or more years away from being made into a workable propulsion method.
And that's provided the physics even works!

Quote
According to General Relativity, any concentration of mass or energy warps space-time around it (by this reasoning, gravity is simply the curvature of space-time that causes smaller masses to fall inward toward larger masses).


Lance, should we show this quote to Dryson?

dryson

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Report this May. 08 2009, 11:12 pm

Your not looking at it correctly, relativity is not bodies in motion it is how the person looks at their surrounding environment and bases a fixed point of reference on what their position is based in a geometrical plane. Relativistic speed is not about warping space, space cannot be warped, bent or enacted upon, space is the absence of something, nothing. You cannot warp nothing.

Time is a measure, a distance that an atom travels in a medium either that is in solid,fluid,gas or plasma state. Time is the measurable distance of how far the atom travels within the medium based upon how the atoms' energetic properties interact with and effect the medium that the atom is passing through as well as how the energetic properties of the medium that the atom is passing through effect the atoms energetic properties as the atom passes through.

Now you can increase time to give a more powerful burst of released energy that would send a ship ahead to a shorter distance at a faster rate of velocity. This would use more fuel though as repeated bursts would be needed to make course corrections while in flight, This type of maneuvering would be used for close quarter combat between ships, ship to ship docking's or other operations.

You can also decrease time to give a slower buildup of energy that would create a more powerful blast of  released energy that would propel a ship ahead to a longer distance at a very high rate of velocity, where the energy release would slowly diminish while the ship was in transit from point A to point B. The ship would then maintain its present velocity until an opposite force slowed the forward momentum down at roughly the 60% to 70% time of arrival at destination.

lanceromega

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Report this May. 11 2009, 11:59 am

Quote (dryson @ May 08 2009, 12:12 am)
Your not looking at it correctly, relativity is not bodies in motion it is how the person looks at their surrounding environment and bases a fixed point of reference on what their position is based in a geometrical plane. Relativistic speed is not about warping space, space cannot be warped, bent or enacted upon, space is the absence of something, nothing. You cannot warp nothing.

Time is a measure, a distance that an atom travels in a medium either that is in solid,fluid,gas or plasma state. Time is the measurable distance of how far the atom travels within the medium based upon how the atoms' energetic properties interact with and effect the medium that the atom is passing through as well as how the energetic properties of the medium that the atom is passing through effect the atoms energetic properties as the atom passes through.

Now you can increase time to give a more powerful burst of released energy that would send a ship ahead to a shorter distance at a faster rate of velocity. This would use more fuel though as repeated bursts would be needed to make course corrections while in flight, This type of maneuvering would be used for close quarter combat between ships, ship to ship docking's or other operations.

You can also decrease time to give a slower buildup of energy that would create a more powerful blast of ?released energy that would propel a ship ahead to a longer distance at a very high rate of velocity, where the energy release would slowly diminish while the ship was in transit from point A to point B. The ship would then maintain its present velocity until an opposite force slowed the forward momentum down at roughly the 60% to 70% time of arrival at destination.

No warping is the realm of General Relativity!! Nothing you said can change the fact that Gravity is due to warpage of space and time by energy /matter. This has been proven via observation of mercury, pairs of neutron stars, pulsar and even by Satellites launch to test this very prediction of Relavitity.

As a theory Both Special Relativity and General Relativity have been support by countless observation, experiment. Modern Quantum Physics combine Special relativity and earily quantum equation to form Quantum Field theory which is the backbone of the Standard Theory, a Theory that is used from everything to making H bombs to Semi conductors.

Simple proof of special Relativity generally requires you just to speed down the highway and get caught by a radar gun that uses Doppler effect to determine an automobile speed.

Mercury obrit could only explain by General Relavitity and the fact that it predicted the deflective of starlight during a solar eclipse. Also redshift of radio signals from pairs of neutron stars undergo changes in frequency as obrit of the both stars decay via gravity wave just as predicted by GR. Then there are the observation of Gravitational lensing, and Einstein Rings which are also predict dure to warpage of space time by the mass of distant Galaxies..

All these things seem to provide more than enought proof that Both General and Relavitity and their modeling of Space Time and the effects of matter and energy on it.

You on the other hand have nothing supporting your view. Simple as that...

4_of_20

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Report this May. 11 2009, 7:35 pm

Yeah he does. His book on physics in the days of Copernicus proves everything he says...

dryson

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Report this May. 17 2009, 2:41 am

First what is time?

Second how can you warp space, when space is nothing but a medium in which particles are present and operate in random order to create planets?

Warp Drive is possible. It may need to be looked at this way.

Instead of using a warp core reactor to provide the necessary fields that create a bubble around a ship to move through space, perhaps the warp bubble would function to use a planets EM field.

We know that Electro Magnetic fields are energy, if a way could be found to create a bubble around a ship that would be able to generate a field that could be projected in front of the ship where it would be attracted to the EM field and pull the ship forward as well as project a field behind the ship that would repel itself thus creating a pushing force against the EM field , then as long as planet was close and an EM Field and Gravity was present then this would work.

Outside of solar system and between solar systems where gravity is less prevalent and in some cases non-existent then this form of warp drive would not work.

I already know what you are going to, it can't work, it breaks the laws of KNOWN physics, that is not how Einstein said that it works. It's an idea, just because I can't prove it doesn't mean it isn't possible, a way to make it possible just hasn't been found yet to make it real.

How many times do you think that people who wanted to fly like a bird came up against notions and ideas of the past? If people were meant to fly would have given them wings. In order for a culture to advance the old ways of thinking have to go and new ways of thinking about our environment have to be brought into play.

I can sum it like this: If a field is planted with the same crops ever year and are not rotated, then the grounds will not produce a better yield the next year. This is the same with science, if you don't interject new ideas, most of the time being radical, just like the notion of the world being flat, then science would not be able to yield new products and would wither and die out.

Just because your precious Einstein or other favored author didn't predict it does not make it not true. Most people's problem in this world is that they only want to role play like some one famous just so they can seem intelligent, but when asked to think about something from their own imagination, they can rarely say something original, but instead talk about what someone else has said. Why? Because that person has already been through the discrimination, jeers and ridicule by their peers and society and have cleared a path for others to follow safely without having to take any risks for fear of ridicule, jeers and discrimination.

lanceromega

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Report this May. 18 2009, 11:01 am

Quote (dryson @ May 16 2009, 3:41 am)
First what is time?

Second how can you warp space, when space is nothing but a medium in which particles are present and operate in random order to create planets?

Warp Drive is possible. It may need to be looked at this way.

Instead of using a warp core reactor to provide the necessary fields that create a bubble around a ship to move through space, perhaps the warp bubble would function to use a planets EM field.

We know that Electro Magnetic fields are energy, if a way could be found to create a bubble around a ship that would be able to generate a field that could be projected in front of the ship where it would be attracted to the EM field and pull the ship forward as well as project a field behind the ship that would repel itself thus creating a pushing force against the EM field , then as long as planet was close and an EM Field and Gravity was present then this would work.

Outside of solar system and between solar systems where gravity is less prevalent and in some cases non-existent then this form of warp drive would not work.

I already know what you are going to, it can't work, it breaks the laws of KNOWN physics, that is not how Einstein said that it works. It's an idea, just because I can't prove it doesn't mean it isn't possible, a way to make it possible just hasn't been found yet to make it real.

How many times do you think that people who wanted to fly like a bird came up against notions and ideas of the past? If people were meant to fly would have given them wings. In order for a culture to advance the old ways of thinking have to go and new ways of thinking about our environment have to be brought into play.

I can sum it like this: If a field is planted with the same crops ever year and are not rotated, then the grounds will not produce a better yield the next year. This is the same with science, if you don't interject new ideas, most of the time being radical, just like the notion of the world being flat, then science would not be able to yield new products and would wither and die out.

Just because your precious Einstein or other favored author didn't predict it does not make it not true. Most people's problem in this world is that they only want to role play like some one famous just so they can seem intelligent, but when asked to think about something from their own imagination, they can rarely say something original, but instead talk about what someone else has said. Why? Because that person has already been through the discrimination, jeers and ridicule by their peers and society and have cleared a path for others to follow safely without having to take any risks for fear of ridicule, jeers and discrimination.

Einstein wasn't just an author, he was a Nobel prize winning Physicisit, who was a foundering father of two major fields of modern Physics, Quantum Mechanics and Relativitic Mechanics.

It is not discrimination ( by the way most Crackpot general use this as an agruement to support why the rest of the Scientific Community donot support their idea), but an agruement ground in theory, observation and experimental data.

Gravity doesnot stop outside the solar system, as stated before it exist everywhere, and warp drive doesnot use gravity but actually creates warpage of space time that basically pull and pushes on the fabric of the universe.

It uses one of the Few loop holes that allow FTL, that being since space time is what set the limit on speed, it not  effect by the C limit and by having a moving region of space, the craft doesnot move thru space but ride on it. We Know that this will Work because Astronomers can see Galaxies riding expanding potions of space as denoted by the Redshift discovered by Hubble! ( The Astronomer not the telescope.)

It not Dogma if support by Facts!!! Dogma is a blind belief that in some cases denies observation and fact.

Which is why science is different, if you can prove you theory you can overturn any estabilish theory, all that is require is validation by other scientist. Even if it goes against all so called expect opinion.

True it take time, the battle over Cold Fusion took over 20 years and there are still many mainstream scientists that doubt the result, but there are experimental results so they are now force to deal with it.

All you need for me to take you seriously is to give me some proof, since you haven't and you are using pure rheroric so state you case i simply have to consign you to the same trash bin of ideas such as astrology and blood letting.

Science is not farming, we don't over turn crops, instead we examins the field and nurse along ideas with merit. General these ideas are planted in older ideas. Relativity didnot just replaced Newton laws, it improved on them.

dryson

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Report this May. 18 2009, 11:46 pm

Gravity is not present throughout that Universe. The reason why gravity seems to be  present all around us is because we are in a solar system where a sun and other planetary bodies that are larger then the Earth is creates a gravitational distortion around us because of the sun's gravitational field surrounds the whole solar system. These overlapping fields will vary in the area covered depending upon the overall circumference and diameter of the planet as well as the mass of the planets core as well as the composite material that makes up the planets various layers,the active nature of the planet or the suns core.

I wish I had a football sized room completely void of any outside light to be able to show and prove to everyone that I am correct in that gravity, which is an energy is produced by the above stated properties, and unlike the the UV light that can be seen for many light years and can travel from point a to point b over millions of years, gravity cannot.

I will try though.

We take various oil soaked rag and make them into torches, sorta like a dungeon explorers clothe torch, each torch having more rags or less rags balled at the end of the stick to make a larger or smaller fire,  100 single wooden match sticks, and one bonfire set at the 50 yard line, the bonfire will have logs that measure ten feet long and two feet in diameter and will be stacked into a pyramid shape.

Now remember we are in a completely darkened football stadium, no light is able to get in from outside. The wooden match sticks are placed at various points around the field as are the dungeon torches.

Our vantage point is from the 50 yard line and 20 rows up into the grandstands.

The matches are lit first. We would see small pin points of light all over the field, the torches are then lit next increasing the covered area. Now before we light the bonfire lets look at the matches and torches. From where we are sitting there would be darkness all around us, as we moved closer to the football field we would enter into the outer fringe of the illuminated zones on the football field. If we turn back around look back where we were sitting it would appear that the light is everywhere, but it wouldn't be. it would seem like it was everywhere but that is because we are within the zone of influence where the UV light being cast off from the torches and matches would envelope us. I am also certain that if light sensing equipment were set up at equa distances from the center of the 50 yard line to the very last row of the stadium and measurements taken, that the farther we get away from the concentrated areas of light the less they would measure on the equipment. Now we approach a single match stick by itself. I just did an experiment here at home with a single paper match by itself and two paper matches held together. What I did was I lit one and held it to the end of my Helix #18170 Engineering ruler. I was able to mark the brightest point of the light at 1/2" after that the illumination went from bright to a medium shadow, I had another light on so I wouldn't  burn the house down. In total the area covered was roughly between  r10" to 11" with a diameter of 20" to 22" for the single match. The area covered with the dual matches was slightly greater with a of r11" to r12" or 22" to 24" in diameter.  When I cupped my hand around the match the heat was most intense at a r.5" or 1". The father I moved my hand away from the match the less heat there was to be felt. I stopped feeling any temperature change by my skin at r1.5" or 3" This means that the match had intense range of energy release from r.25" to r1.25" or a diameter of 1/2 and inch and 2.50". Now what this signifies are the zones of gravitational influence created by the planet's core that is represented by the match, the heat would be the value of the force of the greatest amount of gravity encountered, the light measurement would demonstrate the overall area covered by the gravity and the point at which gravity is no longer present. I did  this experiment again with all of the lights off in the room and when it was dark outside. The result was the same for the area of influence around the match, where the zone of the greatest amount of gravity would be present. I then took a visible measure of the areas where the light was brightest. This measurement was more the the earlier measurement taken with the 12" Engineering ruler. The approximate area covered was r7' or a 14' diameter. Although someone passing by would have seen the match at roughly a hundred yards, they would not have felt the intense zone of gravity closest to the match nor the largest area covered by gravity until they moved closer.

This is for one match. Now we light the rest of the matches and torches and we will discover that the torches are creating larger zones of gravitational influence across the football field, while at the same time overlapping with the gravitational zones of each of the match sticks. Now we light the bonfire. The bonfire would represent the sun at the center of a solar system, the torches gas giants , like Jupiter and Saturn, the match sticks, Earth and Mars. Several of torches and match sticks are within the medium range of gravity or heat being generated by the bonfire or sun. We would still feel a force of gravitational influence from the sun, but as we moved closer to the match stick or torch, the greater gravitational influence that would be felt would be from the torch or matchstick and not the sun or the bonfire, even though the bonfire is undoubtedly generating a larger zone of coverage then the torch and matchstick the lesser gravitational force of influence of the matchstick and torch becomes the greater gravitational force of influence the closer you get them. Now lets move away from the bonfire at a steady rate of a meter a second. As we move away we can feel the heat slowly become less and less our back becoming cooler and cooler until the temperature of our skin has returned to normal. But as we move farther and farther away from the bonfire we will slowly start to become colder and colder, this decrease in temperature  is where gravity has ceased to exist.

Gravity is an energy where the area covered from the greatest area of gravitational influence to the cessation of gravity is dependent upon the circumference of the celestial body, the diameter from the center of the celestial body, the mass of the core, the thickness of the various layers of the celestial body as well as the material composition of these layers, whether these layers are gaseous, fluidic, soild or plasma in nature will determine the zone of area covered by the gravity generated by celestial body.

If gravity is not an energy and does not have a limiting factor of  varying field of strengths, then how can gravity effect light?

Light is a form of energy. Energy affects energy, otherwise gravity wouldn't be able to affect light, and since gravity is an energy it does have a limit to the area that it covers.

Even if the electromagnetic properties of the Earth are brought into the equation of traveling along the String, electricity is not a permanent source of energy either and would dissipate in strength the further the bolt of electricity moved away from the celestial body.

You shouldn't be so closed minded and apt to discriminate against astrology either, astrology is after all the base upon which astronomy was built.

It also sounds like you are Gilgameshion in your thoughts Lancer, get rid of the knowledge that preceded what you want someone to think was the beginning just so you can look to be like a light bringer and put at the center of attention.

It's takes alittle bit more then reading what other famous and intelligent people have written to be able to think and evolve.

Until you post something that is of your own thought and can use metaphysical imagery to explain it, then all you are Lancer is a person of common intelligence and ordinary perspective. Perhaps you should sit down and watch a plastic bag roll around on a windy day through the street.

dryson

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Report this May. 18 2009, 11:53 pm

I want to hear Lancers thoughts on what the following are:
Without any use of material that is already written by someone else.

Space:

Time:

The more you use abusive language in your replies Lancer the more it shows that you are an abusive person that does not have an open mind to new theories because they may take away from the attention you get by running other people down without being able to logically think for yourself, the dumber you actually become.

lanceromega

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Report this May. 19 2009, 9:59 am

Quote
You shouldn't be so closed minded and apt to discriminate against astrology either, astrology is after all the base upon which astronomy was built.

It also sounds like you are Gilgameshion in your thoughts Lancer, get rid of the knowledge that preceded what you want someone to think was the beginning just so you can look to be like a light bringer and put at the center of attention.

It's takes alittle bit more then reading what other famous and intelligent people have written to be able to think and evolve.

Until you post something that is of your own thought and can use metaphysical imagery to explain it, then all you are Lancer is a person of common intelligence and ordinary perspective. Perhaps you should sit down and watch a plastic bag roll around on a windy day through the street.


While Astrology was the precusor of Astronomy the goal of Astrology was different. Astrology is basically a misplace belief that the landscape of heaven controls the lives of indvidual thru mystical means.

Astronomy is a science that study the universe. Not to predict the course of our lifes but to understand the universe around us.

At best Astrology was a means for men of knowledge to fool the men of wealth to finance their studies of the planets and stars. At worse it a means for shady poeple to rob superstition poeple of money that could be use for real science.

I donot want to get rid of past knowledge, instead i study it to see want is useful and true. My goal is the truth.

Metaphysics is pure nonsense let talk physics instead!!!


Quote
I want to hear Lancers thoughts on what the following are:
Without any use of material that is already written by someone else.

Space:

Time:


Space : half of the entity of space time

Time : half of the entity of space time

Space time : the fabric of universe, which guides the course of matter and energy and in turn warped by the same matter and energy.

GrandLunar2007

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Report this May. 24 2009, 8:57 pm

Dryson,

You can't simply pick and choose what science you wish to accept and invent your own science.
The concept of spacetime being an actual medium does seem strange, but it is what is currently accepted about our universe. The idea of space being able to be warped is one of the concepts that scientists use. That fact does not change because you dismiss it.

Nor does the concept of gravity change either.
Gravity does not drop off at any point. It gets weaker and weaker as you get further away from the source, but it does not end. Any astronomer would tell you this. Or at least any that are credible.

Please keep this in mind, Dryson.
Even far out concepts, such as warp drive, utilize known sciences.
New physics can change this. But until that day, we must work with what we've got.

dryson

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Report this May. 27 2009, 5:44 pm

You even said yourself that the father away from the object generating the gravity the weaker it gets. This would mean that gravity is not a given across the whole Universe and is limited to a area covered dependent upon the mass of the object generating the gravity field. The reason why gravity seems to be everywhere is because we are located within a galaxy with millions of planets orbiting about.  I can guarantee that if we were on the planet that orbited the farthest distance away from the center of the Milky Way that two occurrences would take place.

We are the farthest planet from the Milky Way's galactic core, we are also the only planet that orbits the sun

1. Half of the year we would see the Milky Way and the other stars of the Milk Way, the other half of the year we would see nothing except darkspace with the exception to planets that may be even fatherout then we would on the Milky Way's Galactic rim.

2.Half of the year we would be be able to measure the gravity of the Milky with the rest of year resulting in no gravity being present as we looked out into the void of space. The second part of the year would tell us that gravity is only a local phenom generated by the celestial object.

Too bad we can't pour a colored die into each of the Planets gravitational field to see how much area and distance is covered by each planets gravity field.

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