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Transformer/Motor

> id="QUOTE">Sometimes, I look at a few things, and think about an older post I posted. ¿It was about how to design an electric motor that operated as a power transformer. ¿Sure, you get the trolls and nay-sayers.

Well, here are the real statistics, in America, and I do mean the that there are only 273,855 Electronics Engineers in the US that are really even qualified to make a statement. ¿I went to the U.S. Census Bureau to gather this information. ¿Near the bottom of this page, is the list full time Electronics Engineers in America. ¿

U.S. Census Bureau

The Population of the United States is 301,621,157 people. ¿That means for every 1,101.39 posts, there's the potential of only 1 electronics engineer qualified, or that knows enough about the field of electronics to say anything. ¿But, if that one individual doesn't read the material, and just declares that it doesn't work, it will take another 1,101.39 people to view it before 1 could take it or leave it to either learn or miss how clean energy could really work. ¿Building a Car that doesn't need gas or a battery charger is tough with only one person knowing, that many people willing to ignore, way too many trolls that don't really know anything about it.

The statistics get even worse because, this is all magnetic, and the kinds of physics involved, rely on a community that is really back logged big time. ¿Learning something, is still not the same as monumental tasks that they are typically assigned for their work at their jobs. ¿The people that are qualified typically design Power Transformers for Power Substations. ¿

:)

LtElger

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POSTS: 130

Report this Aug. 24 2008, 2:30 pm

Sometimes, I look at a few things, and think about an older post I posted.  It was about how to design an electric motor that operated as a power transformer.  Sure, you get the trolls and nay-sayers.

Well, here are the real statistics, in America, and I do mean the that there are only 273,855 Electronics Engineers in the US that are really even qualified to make a statement.  I went to the U.S. Census Bureau to gather this information.  Near the bottom of this page, is the list full time Electronics Engineers in America.  

U.S. Census Bureau

The Population of the United States is 301,621,157 people.  That means for every 1,101.39 posts, there's the potential of only 1 electronics engineer qualified, or that knows enough about the field of electronics to say anything.  But, if that one individual doesn't read the material, and just declares that it doesn't work, it will take another 1,101.39 people to view it before 1 could take it or leave it to either learn or miss how clean energy could really work.  Building a Car that doesn't need gas or a battery charger is tough with only one person knowing, that many people willing to ignore, way too many trolls that don't really know anything about it.

The statistics get even worse because, this is all magnetic, and the kinds of physics involved, rely on a community that is really back logged big time.  Learning something, is still not the same as monumental tasks that they are typically assigned for their work at their jobs.  The people that are qualified typically design Power Transformers for Power Substations.  

Quote
"Our delivery period for distribution transformers is 12 months, and for power transformers 16 months from the date of order," says Nilesh Shah, general manager at Emirates Transformer & Switchgear, which has been operating in the region for 20 years. Shah reports that demand for both distribution and medium power transformers is currently "more than double last year."


Reference to the Quote/News Aritcle.

Basically, what I am saying is that there is nothing wrong with the design theory.  I've checked over it over and over again, and just really went to work plotting graphs for winding equations using some software that is used by the European Space Agency.  It's free:

Scilab

It works really well, and when the script language isn't like JAVA, it's winds up easier to use because the solution is simpler, not more complicated than JAVA Script Methods.  I admit that the literature doesn't cover all method of problem solving, and you may need to ask a user or administrator, but it is excellent graphing software.

If anything, some of the literature required to gain access to magnetic/electric steels is much more expensive than the equations required to use the stuff.

I know that I am not wrong about it, I just know that if the one person out of 1,101 that does know something won't read into it, won't have a valid opinion of it, nor really be able to determine whether it work or not.  The real odds are much worse because Radar Tech/Engineer, Magnetics/Engineer, Electronics/Engineer, Plasma/Engineer, Optical Electronics Engineer these are all field specific and that's where you just really have to focus your mind on one thing to be good at it.  Nobody is that good at everything.  So the odds are really much worse than 1,101 to 1 on the internet.

lanceromega

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POSTS: 3859

Report this Aug. 25 2008, 11:06 am

border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (LtElger @ Aug. 23 2008, 3:30 pm)

LtElger

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POSTS: 130

Report this Aug. 25 2008, 1:37 pm

It seems to me you do know something.  But, in detail it took me years.  The math, the equations, and all of the details are not that easy to find.  Inductors and transformers, does not cover magnetics in detail.  Those two subjects are far from everything.

The Basic Basics.

lanceromega

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POSTS: 3859

Report this Aug. 25 2008, 1:47 pm

Quote (LtElger @ Aug. 24 2008, 2:37 pm)
It seems to me you do know something. ¿But, in detail it took me years. ¿The math, the equations, and all of the details are not that easy to find. ¿Inductors and transformers, does not cover magnetics in detail. ¿Those two subjects are far from everything.

The Basic Basics.

doesn't seem like anything new, basically a rehashing of transformer theory that i learn in high school, while the diagram appear to be a take on a variable transformer..

LtElger

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POSTS: 130

Report this Aug. 26 2008, 2:08 pm

You didn't read it, if you did, you didn't understand the terminology like anyone who had taken a College Level Electronics class, or you only looked at the pictures.

The Odds Rest at over 6,606+ to 1, and you are not one of those people.

lanceromega

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POSTS: 3859

Report this Aug. 26 2008, 5:03 pm

Quote (LtElger @ Aug. 25 2008, 3:08 pm)
You didn't read it, if you did, you didn't understand the terminology like anyone who had taken a College Level Electronics class, or you only looked at the pictures.

The Odds Rest at over 6,606+ to 1, and you are not one of those people.

excuse me, you reference to an old scientific american article from  july 8 1887, it nothing new. While i am not that old but the basic principles of induction, alternating  currents  and eddie currents was cover by my high school electrical courses back in the 1970's.

Now i know that the standards of education have drop over the decades ( they don't even teach high school physics in many schools) I more than familar with the subject matter in pdf you have sent and it nothing more than bit and pieces from old articles that can be found on the web.

Variable transformers are nothing new, Telsa patented some of the eariler models that are used in voltage triplers. These days instead of using motors they use semiconductor such as FETS to achieve the effects the same effect with much higher switching speeds.

GrandLunar2007

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Report this Aug. 26 2008, 6:50 pm

So, what we have here is a case of old technology trying to be passed off as something new?

Wow.

LtElger

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 130

Report this Aug. 27 2008, 2:04 am

Quote (lanceromega @ Aug. 27 2008, 2:03 am)
Quote (LtElger @ Aug. 25 2008, 3:08 pm)
You didn't read it, if you did, you didn't understand the terminology like anyone who had taken a College Level Electronics class, or you only looked at the pictures.

The Odds Rest at over 6,606+ to 1, and you are not one of those people.

excuse me, you reference to an old scientific american article from ?july 8 1887, it nothing new. While i am not that old but the basic principles of induction, alternating ?currents ?and eddie currents was cover by my high school electrical courses back in the 1970's.

Now i know that the standards of education have drop over the decades ( they don't even teach high school physics in many schools) I more than familar with the subject matter in pdf you have sent and it nothing more than bit and pieces from old articles that can be found on the web.

Variable transformers are nothing new, Telsa patented some of the eariler models that are used in voltage triplers. These days instead of using motors they use semiconductor such as FETS to achieve the effects the same effect with much higher switching speeds.

I do know what you are thinking of, but the variable inductance/transformer you are thinking of uses a moving slug to change the inductance of the winding. ?Basically, the solenoid is wound around a hollow core using plastic or something without any ferromagnetic properties, and an iron slug, or powdered iron slug is moved in and out of the coil to change the value of inductance. ?It's a variable inductor.

Variable Inductor
Variable Inductor

Variable Transformer



This is how the Lortenz Effect and Faraday's Law of induction effects and aluminum disk. ?The coil is powered by an AC current:
Aluminum Short Circuit Repel

And AC magnet Attracting:
Paperclips

The paper clips represent an open circuit, where the aluminum disk represents a shorted secondary winding. ?The paper clips are attracted, and the disk is repelled. ?It's not the same as a DC Electromagnet because, current flow would have to be present and reverse directions to attract or repel. ?The secondary winding of a transformer if open attracts due to the iron core, if the secondary is shorted, or the power used, it repels. ?No need for power to be applied to the secondary of the windings.

The old Scientific American issued in 1887, explains that.

A better view of a shorted secondary repulsion:
Same as Paper Clip Coil, different box.Repell with construction notes in the more info link

AC Pull Type Solenoid

The only difference is that iron will repel if there is a coil shorted around it.  If the aluminum disk had a sheet of steel over it the same diameter, it would have only jumped higher.  The ferromagnetic property of iron will agree with the magnetic field closest too it.  Since, the induced field is opposing the coil, the iron will magnetize more than just that aluminum by itself ever could, and therefore, jump higher.  The rings conduct much better than iron, or steel and always represent a short if made of aluminum or copper.

It's just that you are not using any of this information to design an electric motor.  Transformers do have those forces exhibited internally but, for most part they are nearly balanced.  Less than a whole 1/8th of an inch and they would been out of balance by enough to either attract or repel with a very significant amount of force.

The paper in the zip file named theory is just that, it proves the theory if you build it.  It's just that the coil on the rotor is either open to attract, or shorted to repel.  None of the current is passed from the secondary which is the rotor.  It doesn't matter either way, it's just that if left open it won't work, and if left closed it won't work.  That's why the brushes control short or open based upon position.  Somehow, you haven't put the parts together as drawn.

LtElger

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 130

Report this Aug. 27 2008, 2:38 am

If there is one thing I am not doing, it is giving you my software for calculation coils, which still isn't really finished, and or giving you the geometry of my motor over what's just good for an example and proof of operating theory.  Somehow you don't understand it.

When I was an electronics assembler, we call electrolytic capacitors 'cans' and dipped capacitors 'frogs', and everything had nicknames over the real names because, you don't want have to DSO Pads, over doughnut, or Electrolytic Capacitor, when you could just say "Where are the Cans?"

So, when you talk engineering level, saturation has nothing to do with guitar distortion in magnetics.

lanceromega

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POSTS: 3859

Report this Aug. 27 2008, 4:49 pm

Quote (LtElger @ Aug. 26 2008, 3:04 am)
Quote (lanceromega @ Aug. 27 2008, 2:03 am)
Quote (LtElger @ Aug. 25 2008, 3:08 pm)
You didn't read it, if you did, you didn't understand the terminology like anyone who had taken a College Level Electronics class, or you only looked at the pictures.

The Odds Rest at over 6+,606 to 1, and you are not one of those people.

excuse me, you reference to an old scientific american article from ?july 8 1887, it nothing new. While i am not that old but the basic principles of induction, alternating ?currents ?and eddie currents was cover by my high school electrical courses back in the 1970's.

Now i know that the standards of education have drop over the decades ( they don't even teach high school physics in many schools) I more than familar with the subject matter in pdf you have sent and it nothing more than bit and pieces from old articles that can be found on the web.

Variable transformers are nothing new, Telsa patented some of the eariler models that are used in voltage triplers. These days instead of using motors they use semiconductor such as FETS to achieve the effects the same effect with much higher switching speeds.

I do know what you are thinking of, but the variable inductance/transformer you are thinking of uses a moving slug to change the inductance of the winding. ?Basically, the solenoid is wound around a hollow core using plastic or something without any ferromagnetic properties, and an iron slug, or powdered iron slug is moved in and out of the coil to change the value of inductance. ?It's a variable inductor.

Variable Inductor
Variable Inductor

Variable Transformer



This is how the Lortenz Effect and Faraday's Law of induction effects and aluminum disk. ?The coil is powered by an AC current:
Aluminum Short Circuit Repel

And AC magnet Attracting:
Paperclips

The paper clips represent an open circuit, where the aluminum disk represents a shorted secondary winding. ?The paper clips are attracted, and the disk is repelled. ?It's not the same as a DC Electromagnet because, current flow would have to be present and reverse directions to attract or repel. ?The secondary winding of a transformer if open attracts due to the iron core, if the secondary is shorted, or the power used, it repels. ?No need for power to be applied to the secondary of the windings.

The old Scientific American issued in 1887, explains that.

A better view of a shorted secondary repulsion:
Same as Paper Clip Coil, different box.Repell with construction notes in the more info link

AC Pull Type Solenoid

The only difference is that iron will repel if there is a coil shorted around it. ?If the aluminum disk had a sheet of steel over it the same diameter, it would have only jumped higher. ?The ferromagnetic property of iron will agree with the magnetic field closest too it. ?Since, the induced field is opposing the coil, the iron will magnetize more than just that aluminum by itself ever could, and therefore, jump higher. ?The rings conduct much better than iron, or steel and always represent a short if made of aluminum or copper.

It's just that you are not using any of this information to design an electric motor. ?Transformers do have those forces exhibited internally but, for most part they are nearly balanced. ?Less than a whole 1/8th of an inch and they would been out of balance by enough to either attract or repel with a very significant amount of force.

The paper in the zip file named theory is just that, it proves the theory if you build it. ?It's just that the coil on the rotor is either open to attract, or shorted to repel. ?None of the current is passed from the secondary which is the rotor. ?It doesn't matter either way, it's just that if left open it won't work, and if left closed it won't work. ?That's why the brushes control short or open based upon position. ?Somehow, you haven't put the parts together as drawn.

actually that one type , the ones that i a thinking about Variable Transformers Motorized, which is used in auto switching power supplies, checking my electrical reference manuals, i actually have several supplies that manufacture and sell this product. see :

http://www.stacoenergy.com/pdf/updated/quickstep.pdf

The Quick-Step is a positioner and a regulator. It is self-contained and consists of a stepper motor driven, microprocessor controlled, full range variable transformer.


Standcore was another company, but when i check the internet they have been taken over by ESP... ( my reference books are at least 10 years out of date.)

see:
http://www.elect-spec.com/variac_z.htm

then there is omex, there are ¿other, it a common produce..

Apparently i am one of those 6600's in one people that have actually have experience in the field and recognised that it has already been done.

Telsa  used motorized Transformers in his first radio control robotic torpedoe, which needed to be able to alter inductance from radio oscillator circuits. Since he did not have vacuum tube transistors this was his solution.

Actually  Telsa cover the whole issue of motors and transformers when he invented  the first AC  motor ,generators and synchronous motor. See the following link:

http://www.pbs.org/tesla/res/res_art02.html

and that was back in 1888!!!



I not sure what you mean by guitar magnetic distortions, never heard the term, but then the last electrical engineering job i work on was about 20 years when GE laid off Nuclear engineers due to lack of interest in ¿nuclear power and was force to work for a medical device manufactor designing nuclear detector for radiographic testing..

LtElger

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POSTS: 130

Report this Aug. 28 2008, 5:05 am

That was the best reply ever! ?I learned something.

After reading this, I am willing to bet, that you will not understand immediately why this motor of teslas could be wound like a toroid, and really wind up working.
PBS Tesla

First this about Magnetic Circuits. ?The source makes me say, "hu?"

Old Navy

I hope this link works about how a toroid is wound and the electrical current produces a complete magnetic circuit:
Toroid 'I hope' ?If it's not right there when you click on the link, scroll down the page until you see a doughnut.

Now, go back to the PBS link and look at how Nikola Tesla Wound that coil in Fig. 9 and Fig. 10.

Here's how he got the magnetic field out of the loop. ?As you segment the winding four different, North Faces North, then South Faces South, and that repeats to the fourth coil as you work clockwise.

What happens in space, happens in steel:
?If you look at the picture, the field lines extend into space. ?The core only pays attention to the windings/ampere turns. ?They really were wound like toroids at times. ?There a tossed lost theory of making really strong magnets. ?But, it's really simple, it's the use of highly permeable metals, and stacking magnets in opposition, or using coils to do the same. ?It's just winds up being another puzzle, and I haven't approached that one yet. ?It does look interesting though.


Oh yea, no that's not the type of transformer I was writing about.  Old School, a shorted coil repels, and open coil attracts to an AC Magnetic field.  If I use a simple output selector for the secondary on the stator, and apply straight AC to the rotor without any switching.  The brushes and commutor are in constant conact to the rotor, and the AC constant.  For every winding on the rotor, I have 3 secondary/outputs on the stator.  It's designed like a gapped transformer one way, and because I know that the open coil attracts, and the shorted coil repels, I use only two secondarys at a time.  Each time I want the rotor to move a step, I change which group of three secondarys I am using.  The rotor is attracted to the open, and pushed from the two shorted/used secondaries.

In order for the motor to operate at it's peak horsepower, you must draw the peak power in watts through the transformer/motor in that mentioned manner.  The core must approach saturation for each cycle of AC applied.  All that means is you can use the power twice and have a second motor with nearly equal horsepower but, it's output would be shorted to maintain that maximum amount of power to be pulled through both.  Core winding losses are the only real power lost.  It functions both as a motor and a transformer for the passing the power to next motor/device.  It does have it's dependancies.  If I only had one motor, it's close to 740 Watts per horsepower.  If in running as a motor is still 90% effecient as a transformer, the next motor of equal size and power would either produce 90% of the power, or with an extra 10% electrical power in watts produce 200% of the horsepower per watt.

The 1887 Article in Scientific American, about how the coils moved, doesn't give you motor dimensions, it just tells you when a coil will attract, or repel.  Two bar magnets push each other around opposing, and slam together attracting.  Understanding that and how it is used to construct a motor, the same principles applied to coils that are open or shorted without polarity being an issue, only AC current being applied..  The example in my pdf file, uses two secondary windings and one primary winding on the rotor.  To keep the output in phase of both stationary secondary windings, it's wound like Tesla's electric motor.  North Facing North at the center of the rotor.  Where he used a toroid, that most engineers wouldn't even think would work based upon my knowledge, it only represents a closed magnetic circuit.

LtElger

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Report this Aug. 28 2008, 5:28 am

Let me rephase something.  The motor is a transformer, and the transformer is a motor.  It's both at the same time.  One rotor, one stator.

When I take power from the secondary, it repels the rotor.  When I don't, it attracts the rotor.  The rest is positional logic and using switching to control the rotor's position.

lanceromega

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Report this Aug. 28 2008, 1:02 pm

Quote (LtElger @ Aug. 27 2008, 6:28 am)
Let me rephase something. ¿The motor is a transformer, and the transformer is a motor. ¿It's both at the same time. ¿One rotor, one stator.

When I take power from the secondary, it repels the rotor. ¿When I don't, it attracts the rotor. ¿The rest is positional logic and using switching to control the rotor's position.

Problem with your set up is the fact that by constant moving the winding the inductance forces set up counter currents that actually generate a type of electrical drag.

Such counter currents can become so powerful that in conventional  transformer they can rip the unit from it mountings or generate heat strong enought to melt the winding.

thanks, see when we have polite discord how we can learn new things.

As for yor description it sound like a synchromotor, that uses  variable inductance to force the secondary windings to reposition the winding due to the force of eddies currents created  in the secondary winding. you can actually use a set of synchro to remotelly change each other position  just by altering the postion of one, this cause a change in voltage  that create  a mechanical force in the second syncho..

There are formulas  that cover this in synchromotor and multiphase ac motors theory and Telsa own paper did include some of the equations.

As for magnetic fields in metal, unlike air transmission of magnetic field in metal actual causes a lost of field strenght, variable magentic fields lose more energy as it induces an electrical current. A Gauss cage is prime example of this , as it can shield  objects from oscillating magnetic fields.

in a transformer in order to work, the position of the winding are fix, the ratio of winding allows you change the voltage, not fix or mobile winding results  in the losts due mechanical force that is generated, this is how synchro work.  Voltage is force, and in dynamic systems ( one in motion) the long term trend is fore to equalize.

Step motors are use cause they apply a mechanic force out side of the dynamic forces in the transform and you can use a simple  rotator  to  change winding position.  

using the transformer winding to do both would actually be less effective and actually provide no advantage.

Autoswitching transformers  using semiconductor are more effective and faster, and can be incorporated in to most electronic product ( the medical device i help  design used one to qualitify for  iso 2000 and fda approval) . A mechanical system like stepmotors are used in heavy current and voltage system and alter the winding positions..

LtElger

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POSTS: 130

Report this Aug. 29 2008, 3:40 am

I have looked around, and really believe you are wrong.  If you've ever heard it said, "If it were possible, they would have done it a long time ago."  Well, I do look around and try to figure out if anyone has had the same idea, or invented the same devices before.  I'm pretty sure this is it, except they've included a generator placed on the same shaft.  So, watch the video, then stop by the next link:

Motor/Generator combo

Pettition to Imprison US Officials for Environmental Fraud

I've always said, if I had to ask God, to create all of the people to just do it, then so be it.

lanceromega

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 3859

Report this Aug. 29 2008, 2:28 pm

Quote (LtElger @ Aug. 28 2008, 4:40 am)
I have looked around, and really believe you are wrong. ¿If you've ever heard it said, "If it were possible, they would have done it a long time ago." ¿Well, I do look around and try to figure out if anyone has had the same idea, or invented the same devices before. ¿I'm pretty sure this is it, except they've included a generator placed on the same shaft. ¿So, watch the video, then stop by the next link:

Motor/Generator combo

Pettition to Imprison US Officials for Environmental Fraud

I've always said, if I had to ask God, to create all of the people to just do it, then so be it.

"synchromotor" have been around forever. basically it uses changes in rotor position of to change electrical voltage that induce in a second unit that move it rotor.

As for motor generator.

A motor by it sheer design can be used as a generator. Generator require something to move the shaft to generate electrical power, if you apply electrical power to a non moving generator it will act as a motor.. This can be shown by the right hand and left hand rules of electrical feed..

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