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Who wants to discuss Quantom physics?

dahat1992

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POSTS: 17

Report this Jun. 06 2008, 10:12 pm

I know a little bit, not enough to brag about, but certainly enough to pull my weight.  Shrodinger's cat still tweaks my brain, though.  I get the concept, but I can't think too deeply on it.   :whatthe:
I would love to learn more about it...

Sara_Paris

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POSTS: 20272

Report this Jun. 07 2008, 10:52 am

That one kicks my arse as well. Theres nothing like a good paradox to get you thinking in circles.

UTDave

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POSTS: 250

Report this Jun. 07 2008, 9:37 pm

Quote (dahat1992 @ June 06 2008, 10:12 pm)
I know a little bit, not enough to brag about, but certainly enough to pull my weight.  Shrodinger's cat still tweaks my brain, though.  I get the concept, but I can't think too deeply on it.   :whatthe:
I would love to learn more about it...

If you want to learn more about the subject I recommend "In Search of Schrodinger's Cat. It talks alot about the subject but in a way that is simple enough for the lay man to understand but comprehensive enough to keep an expert occupied.

LadyDraig

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POSTS: 172

Report this Jun. 08 2008, 10:14 am

:eyesroll: Ok...I'm gonna give this a try so be patient with me.  I've posted this here for myself and anyone else brave enough to tread here...

"Schrodinger's cat is a famous illustration of the principle in quantum theory of superposition , proposed by Erwin Schrodinger in 1935. Schrodinger's cat serves to demonstrate the apparent conflict between what quantum theory tells us is true about the nature and behavior of matter on the microscopic level and what we observe to be true about the nature and behavior of matter on the macroscopic level.

Here's Schrodinger's (theoretical) experiment: We place a living cat into a steel chamber, along with a device containing a vial of hydrocyanic acid. There is, in the chamber, a very small amount of a radioactive substance. If even a single atom of the substance decays during the test period, a relay mechanism will trip a hammer, which will, in turn, break the vial and kill the cat. The observer cannot know whether or not an atom of the substance has decayed, and consequently, cannot know whether the vial has been broken, the hydrocyanic acid released, and the cat killed. Since we cannot know, the cat is both dead and alive according to quantum law, in a superposition of states. It is only when we break open the box and learn the condition of the cat that the superposition is lost, and the cat becomes one or the other (dead or alive). This situation is sometimes called quantum indeterminacy or the observer's paradox : the observation or measurement itself affects an outcome, so that the outcome as such does not exist unless the measurement is made. (That is, there is no single outcome unless it is observed.)

We know that superposition actually occurs at the subatomic level, because there are observable effects of interference, in which a single particle is demonstrated to be in multiple locations simultaneously. What that fact implies about the nature of reality on the observable level (cats, for example, as opposed to electrons) is one of the stickiest areas of quantum physics. Schrodinger himself is rumored to have said, later in life, that he wished he had never met that cat."

LadyDraig

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POSTS: 172

Report this Jun. 08 2008, 10:32 am

...now is there anyone who attempted this? (not necessarily with a cat)

UTDave

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POSTS: 250

Report this Jun. 08 2008, 4:47 pm

Quote (LadyDraig @ June 08 2008, 10:32 am)
...now is there anyone who attempted this? (not necessarily with a cat)

Undoubtly, that is ehat scientists do to animals. Plus I believe the experiment used a lead box. Sorry for nit-picking

kirkkid7

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Report this Jun. 08 2008, 4:49 pm

i love quantum physics! :cool:

LadyDraig

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POSTS: 172

Report this Jun. 09 2008, 12:39 am

UTDave:  using lead would change the results dramatically, wouldnt it?  assuming I remember my chemistry corectly

lanceromega

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Report this Jun. 09 2008, 2:37 pm

Quote (LadyDraig @ June 07 2008, 11:32 am)
...now is there anyone who attempted this? (not necessarily with a cat)

this experiment can be done with subatomic particle, as you add particles to the experiment the state of superposition trend to fall apart.

The largest collection of particles that can be place in this state is actually seen in SQUIDs (Superconducting Quantum Interference Device ) these devices can be place in a state of superposition and collasp when a charge particle passes thru the coils..

there is no known limit of how big a system of particle can be place in quantum superposition, and we really have no idea what causes the Quantum waveform to collasp, we know it happen during measurement of such system but we donot know the mechanism..

The act of measurement has taken on a mystical role in Quantum mechanics, at one point some physicist such as Wheeler has contribute the act of measurement to human conscience, and our role as the observer.

UTDave

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POSTS: 250

Report this Jun. 09 2008, 8:26 pm

Quote (LadyDraig @ June 09 2008, 12:39 am)
UTDave:  using lead would change the results dramatically, wouldnt it?  assuming I remember my chemistry corectly

I thought that was used because the absorbtion rate is higher, thus limiting the impact of external forces like alpha and beta rays. I might be wrong, but i was always told lead was used.

LadyDraig

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POSTS: 172

Report this Jun. 09 2008, 9:27 pm

Quote (UTDave @ June 09 2008, 8:26 pm)
I thought that was used because the absorbtion rate is higher, thus limiting the impact of external forces like alpha and beta rays. I might be wrong, but i was always told lead was used.

I agree with the "dampening effect" and I am deffinitely not saying you are wrong.
My question should have been better phrased.
By using lead, the "breakdown" would have created a different substance(compound) and would have "dampened" the atomic decay? :question: therefore not creating enough particles?

LadyDraig

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POSTS: 172

Report this Jun. 09 2008, 9:29 pm

Lancer: those machines can measure decay...so how could that be the same thing?

(please go slow for my old brain!:laugh: )

UTDave

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POSTS: 250

Report this Jun. 09 2008, 9:38 pm

Quote (LadyDraig @ June 09 2008, 9:29 pm)
Lancer: those machines can measure decay...so how could that be the same thing?

(please go slow for my old brain!:laugh: )

This is the reason why many quatum phyisists go grey at an early age. With most areas of science things follow patterns, e.g. the alkalines all producing hydrogen and heat when exposed to water. But the patterns in quatum physics are so complex that by changin one variable, even slightly you change the complete nature of the experiment

LadyDraig

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POSTS: 172

Report this Jun. 09 2008, 9:44 pm

which goes back to "opening the box" to see the results.
:laugh: what a vicious circle:laugh:
so applying this to trek:  how is it that they can make anti-matter, stream it and maintain this for a warp field?

There is no practical way to apply this, is there?

UTDave

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POSTS: 250

Report this Jun. 09 2008, 10:08 pm

Quote (LadyDraig @ June 09 2008, 9:44 pm)
which goes back to "opening the box" to see the results.
:laugh: what a vicious circle:laugh:
so applying this to trek:  how is it that they can make anti-matter, stream it and maintain this for a warp field?

There is no practical way to apply this, is there?

No. It all works on paper but in the real world, under real conditions, you cannot predict the out-come, as it is inherently unpredictable.

and this is why i "duck and cover" when ever anyone says quatum physics can be solved by practical experiments. the partical collider is a case in point. by using a form of science that no-one truly understands to create particals that were never suposed to interact you risk causing one heck of an explosion

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