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Why??

Praetor_Tomalak

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POSTS: 151

Report this Mar. 26 2008, 5:03 am

Shuttle is always well grounded in reality. Although, shouldn't a shuttle be flying through space? Hmm, anyway...

Quote
The ongoing obession with Marines - NEVER seen in Trek, non-canon and frankly just more fanboy pointlessness

Thank you for making mention of this! I am so very sick of seeing sim after sim not only having marine divisions, but even their commissioned commanding officers now too. *shakes head*

Closely linked with this I feel is the strong desire for the uber-ships to have a full compliment of fighters in their hanger bays. Look, this isn't Star Wars as much as they tried to make it appear that way during the Dominion War story arc.

As for using the term fleet, everyone has to start somewhere but until you've got 30 ships or so - you simply don't qualify as one. You can of course NPC the multitude of other ships and their captains that are out there until you have them all manned. However, you might want to go with the much safer term of task group. Even then, how often was the Enterprise D assigned to one such task group during the run of the TNG series? Maybe twice? Starships are meant to function alone, resupplying every 6 to 8 weeks or so. That is of course one of the factors that made Voyager's ordeal that much more difficult.

Thanks for posting this Shuttle, it will make for good debate. That's all I have for now.

Darth_Cheddar

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POSTS: 129

Report this Mar. 26 2008, 7:35 am

I've got little to add to Shuttle and Praetor's statements, since I agree with all of them, but I will point out how much I dislike characters who are half-this and half-that and three-quarters something and oh by the way I embrace emotions I don't supress them and my parents hated my choices and now I don't talk to them. It's right up there with orphans for me, or character descriptions that say "Loyal, but ignores orders if he/she doesn't agree with them."

Explain to me the point of playing a Vulcan that acts like a human, that has human interests and emotions. You're not playing a Vulcan. You're playing a human with pointy ears and an interesting hair cut.

The idea behind playing a non-human should always, always be about exploring ideas that are not easily justified by humanity. If you're keen on playing someone different-looking, you should take that opportunity and really explore the ramifications of your character among so many people who are different.

domo_arigato

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Report this Mar. 26 2008, 10:05 am

I never really have understood the concept of marines...sure the slightest, even remotely possible canon reference is the MACOs in Enterprise, however, there have been many canonical inconsistancies(sp) with the series as a whole and one cannot fully trust some of the canon presented in said series.

Then the fighters... :eyesroll: ....the only time we saw them was in DS9, and even then they never specified where they came from...did they get to the battle by themselves? or where they actually launched from a ship? It has been never specified in canon, so why involve them to begin with?

One definetly cannot forget about hybrids, some are just too good to be true...a vulcan-klingon mix? andorians + other? betazoid-klingon? what's next a deltan-carreon?

1. If I remember right, in the Vanguard series, the Klingon spy hated having to touch her lesbian lover...uhh, why do I not see this working out for a male/female klingon reproducing with a vulcan in the middle of pon farr? Sure for that breif period of time they woudl make for a rather interesting liason however, they'd have to wait for another 7 years before they could have it again... that is not very logical...

2. I'd love to see you explain what sex your andorian hybrid is...is it a thaan? zhen? chaan? shen? Just because they can have sexual relations with each other, does not mean that they can sire a child together...

3. Why in the world would a betazoid and klingon, even dare to join together? Their ideals are the antithesis (opposite) of each other, could you imagine living in a home with a peace lover and a warrior? I have a feeling one of your parents is going to end up dead rather fast....

GalaxyClassUSSEnterpriseN
CC1701D

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Report this Mar. 26 2008, 5:00 pm

Quote (domo_arigato @ Mar. 26 2008, 8:05 am)
Then the fighters... :eyesroll: ....the only time we saw them was in DS9, and even then they never specified where they came from...did they get to the battle by themselves? or where they actually launched from a ship? It has been never specified in canon, so why involve them to begin with?

in BOBW's from TNG, didn't fighter type crafts (3 of them I Think) show up as the Borg Cube is heading to earth? (they kind of met their end in 1.2 seconds so maybe people don't remember it, or I could be wrong)

they were flying by themselves and there were no other larger ships nearby, so one would have to take from that that they either have their own warp drive, or they don't and are deplyed from starbases and outposts as a defensive option should something unforeseeable happen (like say a borg cube driving up to your planet)

EDIT: I realised I never made my point :laugh:
that being that Fighters seem to exist, but there's not canon evidence to suggest they are housed or deployed from other starships, just that they're standalone entities

Lucifer_

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Report this Mar. 26 2008, 5:14 pm

Ditto on most of the opinions here. Interesting characters are defined by their flaws and weaknesses not their strengths and attributes.

What I hate more than wanktastic ships and crew are when players try to god-mod themselves (and sometimes other people's characters) whenever things aren't going their way. I also hate it when people state they're in one part of the ship, but when the action is happening somewhere else, they magically show up somehow so they can be in on it.

Finally, I hate one sentence posts. If you're going to play in a sim, you should at least be able to write something more than "Yes, sir" or "Lt. So-and-so goes to the mess hall."

For samples of my own writing/role-play, check out my contributions on the USS Adams. (Registration is required.) My characters are Maria Kenton, Eric Vaughn, and Terrance Fleming. They are a ship's counselor, a SF marine and a Science officer repsectively.

Starbasecommander

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POSTS: 1892

Report this Mar. 26 2008, 6:24 pm

I'm honoured that i was mentioned twice in the opening post for such a just-caused thread.  :D

Everyone feel free to have a nosey at the Intrepid. Good simmers through-and-through............well, most of them.


And i agree with everything that has just been said. Praise you all, you wounderous, wonderous beings.

JMErbe

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POSTS: 13

Report this Mar. 26 2008, 10:22 pm

I agree with everything everyone has said so far, apart from the tragedy of fighter pilots and Marines :)

They may not be canon, and they may, unfortunately, attract the fanboys, but with a little imagination (and the right players) you can make them work without any wankerism :)  How do I know?  Because way back in yester-year I had the privilege of rpging with a group of players who did just that.

DTan

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POSTS: 228

Report this Mar. 27 2008, 7:03 am

Like Erbe, I agree with pretty much everything already said, except the marines and fighters.

Starting with marines. They may be non-canon, but they have to be there. I mean come on, StarFleet, is just that: a fleet. They are trained to deal with ship to ship encounters. Ture enough they can deal on the ground, but it is not the primary aspect of their training. Marines, however, are strictly ground forces. They may be ferried to a location by a ship, maybe there's a platoon or two on a Galaxy or something of equivalent size, but most ships would not carry them as a regular part of the crew. It'd be a one off deal, from this base to this planet and back again.

Fighters. Maybe they aren't canon, but if the right person is playing the part it can easily be worked into the storyline. However, I hate ships that are, say, Intrepid class, yet they have an entire 72 craft wing of fighters stored on board... Somewhere. Despite the fact that the number of fighters takes up more room than is available in the entire ship, let alone shuttle bay two, they are there. Now, a larger ship, again Galaxy or equivalent size, may carry a flight (4 craft) for purposes of scouting, surveying, etc. but that's it. A base, on the other hand, could handle a wing, or more, at the expense of an equal number of shuttle craft. i.e. you have a wing of fighters, you lose 72 shuttles. Carriers... I'm on one in Obsidian Fleet (Play the CAG), they border on uber. It really depends on the CO. If they know what they're doing, and the crew can follow their lead, a sim will be fun, regardless of specs, departments, etc.

I will say this though, about uber ships. A ship is only uber if it is relativelyover powered. Just because it has thirty type L (Roman numeral for 50) phasers, twenty torpedo tubes and a thousand transphasics, it isn't necesarily over powered. If it's fighting, I dunno let's say it's fighting a new Klingon ship in the year 2543 (Yes 2543, not a typo). If that Klingon ship is your average BoP, then yes, and uber ship is afoot. If that BoP is hte newest model and has enough firepower to obliterate a planet, along the lines of a hundred disruptors seventy torpedo tubes, and a gagillion torpedoes, I'd say the first ship is toast. No, the problem I have with uber ships is the lack of a proper setting and the lack of any real understanding of the concept of space. The first ship? Probably have to be four, five times bigger than an Excalibur to accomodate all that weaponry. Have to have a crew of probably close to ten thousand to keep it working.

People come up with their own ships designs, which I have no problem with, as long as they know what they're doing. The ones who create a new class to replace the Intrepid because their sim is set sixty years in teh future, fine, as long as it works. Those who refit the Intrepid for the same reason... they usually suck. I've seen refits that add seven phasers, three torpedo tubes and a hundred torpedoes. Doesn;t sound like much, but where's it all gonna go? This ship has all this extra stuff, but it's no bigger than it originally was, and it has all the stuff it had originally.

Also new, uber technologies. I'm fine with new tech, but holy shazbot, some of it is just ridiculous. Can't think of anything off the top of my head. But, I move on.

Back to space, here's a list I pulled from one sim (No name to be given) That I was on for about a week before I realized how lousy it was. This is just the vehicles, the list of stuff goes on and on, and I only looked at the marine armory, BTW, 2000 marines on a Prometheus? Doubt it)
Vehicles
CHBL/97 ¿Water Buffalo¿ Cargo Hauler, Bulk Liquids: 500
CHBF/97 ¿Gas Hog¿ Cargo Hauler, Bulk Fuels: 500
CHWL/89 ¿Deuce-and-a-Half¿: 500
CHWH/89 ¿Six-By¿ Cargo Hauler, Wheeled, Heavy: 600
GPVL/99 ¿Jeep¿ General Purpose Vehicle, Light: 3500
GPVH/99 ¿Hummer¿ General Purpose Vehicle, Heavy: 3500
CSV/99 "Command Car" Command Staff Vehicle: 60
ASC/01 "Argo" Argo Shuttlecraft, Special Vehicle: 3
Like I said, that's only the vehicles that won't fit. To that add about two hundred thousand, you might get close to the number that would be associated with all the useless shite they have listed. Not to mention the hundred twenty fighters they have aboard that wouldn't fit on a Prometheus. As I said, this lack of understanding basic concepts like avaiable space, is what turnes me off uber ships, 'cause I think everyone should be on at least one uber ship a year, even if it's only for one mission. It's a release, an outlet, a way to do all the things you want to do, but can't, on your realistic sim.

My two cents. Hope you guys can get the idea through all this useless chatter. I ramble, sue me.

Darth_Cheddar

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POSTS: 129

Report this Mar. 27 2008, 8:13 am

DTan, I respectfully disagree with...pretty much everything you wrote. :D Those are justifications for everything that's actually wrong with so many games.

Marines "Have to be there?" No they don't. Not at all. There are no Marines in Star Trek canon, therefore there is no reason for them. Star Trek is not about ground-based combat. Fighters are also not canon, and so therefore they are also extraneous.

Quote
A ship is only uber if it is relativelyover powered. Just because it has thirty type L (Roman numeral for 50) phasers, twenty torpedo tubes and a thousand transphasics, it isn't necesarily over powered


Yes it is. It is it is. It really is.

I will grant you that if a game is set far enough into the future, then refits and/or new ship designs might be in order. But the refit should include better sensor arrays and shields, not more powerful weapons and missles and torpedoes. Starships already have the power to steralize a planet from orbit, and have since Kirk's day. Why don't the refits boost the true mission: the seeking and the boldly going part? Because too many players want to kill stuff, that's why, and that, I think is the crux of the biscuit here. What most of us are talking about is the spirit of Star Trek, not the letter. The spirit of Star Trek has always been about exploration and problem-solving. Everything else is just special effects.

My two cents more, anyway.

Commodore_Dingbat

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Report this Mar. 27 2008, 4:31 pm

My base is plodding forward almost 3 years later, it maybe slow at times, and I have a little core of dedicated posters who post when they can...my base certainly isn't any god-modding base....its just a bit of fun....and we have had some interesting missions.....a few people have said its not really their thing. Thats fair enough, ive not joined simms I dont think are for me!

It'll continue on....it better...seeing as I just bought a domain name for it!

:laugh:

Starbasecommander

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Report this Mar. 27 2008, 5:19 pm

Well said, DTan - i agree, there. I've allways healthily endorsed Marines as the Federations ground forces, but they should never be entirely ship-board.

The same with fighter wings - definatley confined to starbases, i agree.


And i suppose if you want a simm that far in the future, sure - have an ubership. It might just be a light scout in that time period.  :D

domo_arigato

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Report this Mar. 27 2008, 9:56 pm

Quote (Starbasecommander @ Mar. 27 2008, 5:19 pm)
And i suppose if you want a simm that far in the future, sure - have an ubership. It might just be a light scout in that time period. ¿:D

lol agreed.

Luthiean71

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Report this Mar. 28 2008, 1:10 am

*shrugs*

It's fun having RPs, and I do consider my ship a non-been-there-done-that ship. It malfunctions and the replicator sends mashed potatos flying across the room. And duct tape holds together the captains chair. And you have to hit things to make them work.
Good times, good times.

domo_arigato

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Report this Mar. 30 2008, 10:19 pm

After discussing this same topic on a RP that I'm a member of, I've come to the conclusion that it's not the equipment that makes the game, it's the characters and the people behind the characters. Even with those annoying one sentence posts, one still gets the feeling behind the character. Their word choice, the structure, if one digs enough one is able to see the character.

DTan

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Report this Mar. 31 2008, 7:35 am

I agree with the above. One sentence posts have their place... as part of a larger joint post. That being the point of a JP, to avoid thee pages of back and forth, one sentence dialogue.

I have this to say about uber ships and characters on them. In my humble opinion and uber ship isn't about the characters, and everyone joining should already know that. An uber ship is simply about fulfilling the two fantasies that pretty much every human has in common: to be Superman's StarFleet equivalent, and to have enough destructive power at your fingertips to destroy a star system. Let's face it, the majority of human's are destructive, perhaps not all the time, but we all have that occasional impulse. An uber ship is just a way to exercise it. I have never once joined an uber ship with the intention of creating a in-depth human character, I just wanted to get the CSTO spot so I could be in control of the weapons during that mandatory first (and usually only) mission battle with the Borg. If the sim lasts longer than that first mission, jolly good, I get to do it again. If not, oh well, it's not like it was any great loss, even to to the five or six people who joined. That being said, what does rank matter if your only going to hold it for one mission?

As I said, I agree with everything Shuttle said. Uber's are fun, but only sometimes. A normal sim, with a normal ship is far more entertaining and has a much better chance of lasting long enough to be worth the time it takes to make a good character. However, if you are on an uber and you do happen to have a group of people who are competent to RP and downplay the role of the ship... well, if that's the case why not just down grade the ship to run-of-the-mill.

End Rambling.

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