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global warming questions

> id="QUOTE">All I ask from the scientific community is give me some hard evidence of Global Warming, that is Humans causing it; no emotive videos, no strong-arm coercion, just hard evidence and i'll believe.

keith_the_science_guy

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Report this Jun. 25 2007, 11:41 pm

Will the sea levels rise when the global ice packs melt?  I ask because when you put a beaker full of ice water out and the ice melts, the water level drops... after all ice is less dense than water.  I have heard a threat of global warming is the rising sea levels, but I can't put the two together.  If the sea is supposed to rise, why does the water level go down in the beaker??  If it isn't supposed to rise, then why are all the scientists saying it will?

Tannagra

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Report this Jun. 26 2007, 2:33 am

I think the problem here with the beaker comparison is that some of the ice pack is above water level and this is the ice which will contribute to raised sea-levels.

Though it is far from certain what will actually happen. Some scientists say the Poles are melting, others say that some of the Pole is melting yet the rest is getting thicker and some say its a cyclical event; in that it happens yearly.

But in principal you are correct, Ice is less dense than water, water expands as it turns into ice, so if all the ice was at or below sea level the seas would drop in level not rise.

Invader_Wishfire

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Report this Jun. 26 2007, 5:52 am

Also consider that if all the ice on top of Antarctica is so heavy that it literally pushes the continent down. If it were all to melt, Antarctica would rise back up, which means a lot less land-mass below sea level (pushing sea level higher). So while the melting of the ice could raise the sea levels, the rise of Antarctica would serve to lower it. In the end, they would cancel each other out. Mostly.

Tannagra

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Report this Jun. 26 2007, 12:34 pm

As they say in X-Files, 'The Truth is out there', its just hidden under all the Political Agendas, vested interests, mis-understood data, and people getting things plain wrong.

These floods we've had in the UK, their nothing on the scale of the Mississipi or the Amazon floods, yet I read on a BBC website today that some Environment Agency boffin has 'confirmed' that this is what Global Warming models predict. It seems that from now on every heavy deluge we have is going to be blamed on 'Global Warming', yet Britain is famed for its rainfall, its an in-joke here and abroad.

Tannagra

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Report this Jun. 26 2007, 1:14 pm

Quote (Yanks @ June 26 2007, 1:02 pm)
Quote (Tannagra @ June 26 2007, 12:34 pm)
As they say in X-Files, 'The Truth is out there', its just hidden under all the Political Agendas, vested interests, mis-understood data, and people getting things plain wrong.

These floods we've had in the UK, their nothing on the scale of the Mississipi or the Amazon floods, yet I read on a BBC website today that some Environment Agency boffin has 'confirmed' that this is what Global Warming models predict. It seems that from now on every heavy deluge we have is going to be blamed on 'Global Warming', yet Britain is famed for its rainfall, its an in-joke here and abroad.

All global warming is is a method for those that don't have power to get it.

It's all a joke.

Hmm, i wouldnt go quite that far, though thats certainly part of it for sure.

The way I see it is that climatic change on the Earth has always been happening, and always will happen, the big BUT is 'are we having something to do with it NOW'? and I honestly don't know.

Obviously my gut tells me that polluting is wrong, thats an easy one; we shouldn't pollute its that simple. In science though we are taught that gut instincts while sometimes correct arent the correct way to go about things, and the same's true with 'Climate Change'.

All I ask from the scientific community is give me some hard evidence of Global Warming, that is Humans causing it; no emotive videos, no strong-arm coercion, just hard evidence and i'll believe.

Until then, ill continue recycling what i already do, turning off lights and other electrical appliances when not in use, thats all I can do.

Tannagra

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Report this Jun. 26 2007, 1:44 pm

> id="QUOTE"> border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (Tannagra @ June 26 2007, 1:14 pm)> id="QUOTE">Hmm, i wouldnt go quite that far, though thats certainly part of it for sure.

The way I see it is that climatic change on the Earth has always been happening, and always will happen, the big BUT is 'are we having something to do with it NOW'? and I honestly don't know.
border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote (Yanks @ June 26 2007, 1:30 pm)


...and neither do the scientists...

border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0">>>Quote


They don't have it. What you do get is political organizations using the old "fear" tactic to try and scare everyone else into buying that it's "all our fault". Result: laws and regulations designed to give money (power) to those that don;t have it now, in order to secure a voting base and stay in office or get re-elected.

;)

Invader_Wishfire

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Report this Jun. 26 2007, 3:19 pm

Oh, something else I forgot to add to my above comment... There's the fact that much of the ice at the ice caps is compressed from the weight of centuries of snow and ice build-up. Which means that there's a lot more water present than it appears. If you took the OP's ice-cube-in-a-beaker example, but replaced the ice cube with one the was compressed enough that there's twice as much ice in the same volume, you'll see a very different result when it melts.

keith_the_science_guy

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Report this Jun. 26 2007, 8:14 pm

Another thing I am wondering about is this: If we were to put enough sulfuric acid aerosols into the upper atmosphere, that would block the suns rays and cool the planet.  Too much would kill us, but just enough would keep the global warming from happening.  If it is really that big a deal, why don't they just do that?

draeden06

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Report this Jun. 26 2007, 9:12 pm

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 Posted: June 26 2007, 1:10 pm  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The ice displaces the water in the ocean to create the current sea level. If all the floating ice were to melt, SEA LEVEL WOULD NOT CHANGE. Your ice cube demonstration implies that sea levels could actually drop because ice is less dense than water; however, 10% of an iceberg is above water, so maybe when that melts it cancels out the density difference. In reality, land based ice would melt too and cause the sea level to rise by at most 66 meters (i.e. Waterworld can't happen). If all the ice did melt, the total inhabitable land surface area would actually increase because Greenland and Antarctica are now free of ice.



http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/environment/waterworld.html

keith_the_science_guy

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Report this Jun. 27 2007, 7:36 am

Another part I don't understand is that scientists say the ice caps melting is something that is only a problem in the summer months.  The problem with that is in the Northern Hemisphere, our summer is the Southern Hemisphere's winter.  When one pole is melting, wouldn't the other pole be freezing?

Invader_Wishfire

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Report this Jun. 27 2007, 7:43 am

Yes and no. Normally, parts of a polar ice cap will melt during the summer, and the same amount of water will refreeze during the winter. Now (supposedly), the same amount of water is refreezing during the winter, but more ice than is normal is melting during the summer.

vgrbabe

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Report this Jun. 27 2007, 8:48 am

I wouldn't worry about any of this. The idea that people are responsible for global warming is bull poop. In the past the climate has changed, in the future the climate will change. It is a natural phenomenon that us little humans have no effect on. The earth has gone though periods of cold (ice age) and hot long before humans were around, and will continue to go through these climate changes looooooong after we are all gone. The planet is due for another ice age, which starts by a warming period.

Tannagra

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Report this Jun. 27 2007, 12:38 pm

Quote (Kraven_de_Sade @ June 27 2007, 7:43 am)
Yes and no. Normally, parts of a polar ice cap will melt during the summer, and the same amount of water will refreeze during the winter. Now (supposedly), the same amount of water is refreezing during the winter, but more ice than is normal is melting during the summer.

At the time of the Dinosaurs there were periods, long periods, where there was absolutely no Ice at the Poles, in fact it was a tropical rain forest with an average temp of 70oC.

Humans, as a species that is, tend to forget that the Earth wasnt made for them, it also won't keep a lovely climate just so they can exist easily. Darwins theory of Natural Selection is still going strong today and we as the supposed pinnacle of evolution should be able to adapt, or if we dont we perish.

There were also periods on the early Earth where oxygen was a bit gas and CO2 ruled the roost with other exotic gases, alot of the life around then would die almost instantly now in an Oxygen rich environment.

In short, the world won't stay like we want it just because we want it to.

:logical:

kenny6

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Report this Jun. 27 2007, 8:30 pm

everybody need to think of the rain forest to, they are getting cut down to this to changes the world to.

keith_the_science_guy

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Report this Jun. 27 2007, 8:46 pm

Actually, I think the destruction of the old growth rain forests in tropical asia, africa, and south america are two to three thousand times more devastating than the cars and factories burning fuels.  My interest in this topic relates mostly to physics and the properties of water.  I don't know if the seas will rise or sink or stay the same.  I don't believe that hurricanes, droughts, and floods can be explained by our actions or prevented.  Nor do I think we should try to stop them from happening.  It seems every attempt we make to fix one problem, we just make another one worse.  I mean at one time, CFC's, DDT, heroine, asbestos, and a host of other things were all considered to be miracles of science until we figured out what they really do to us.

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