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'Star Trek'-like deflector shields R&D

caretaker2

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POSTS: 78

Report this Apr. 18 2007, 5:53 pm

"Space shield to block radiation" BBC News Online - Science & Technology

M16A4

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Report this Apr. 19 2007, 8:16 pm

very cool, but its not quite like deflector shields. these things here only block radiation, what happens if I fling a projectile at it? don't get me wrong its a step in the right direction definitely.

Tannagra

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Report this Apr. 20 2007, 4:17 am

Quote (caretaker2 @ April 18 2007, 5:53 pm)
"Space shield to block radiation" BBC News Online - Science & Technology

Yes, is a good move, but not really in the same league as Startrek Deflectors, i mean try stopping a few 100 gigawatts of em energy with them.

Though i would much prefer other Startrek things first, like maybe world peace, cheap and emission free energy production or replicator type food production.

I can dream i suppose.

lanceromega

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Report this Apr. 20 2007, 3:17 pm

Quote (M16A4 @ April 18 2007, 9:16 pm)
very cool, but its not quite like deflector shields. these things here only block radiation, what happens if I fling a projectile at it? don't get me wrong its a step in the right direction definitely.

unlike what we see happen with sci fi shields, ¿it very hard to block kinetic impactor..

Against projectiles, you have 3 options:

1) Move out of the way
2) vaporize it
3) encase your self in some kind of armor...

spacemonster

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Report this May. 09 2007, 11:01 am

If I'm not mistaken, the shields used on ST ships are based off gravitational fields and not just electromagnetic.  It's the only way they could take that kind of pounding.

kenny6

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Report this May. 12 2007, 2:38 am

it looks more like a warp feild and not a sheld.

lanceromega

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Report this May. 12 2007, 7:18 pm

Quote (spacemonster @ May 08 2007, 12:01 pm)
If I'm not mistaken, the shields used on ST ships are based off gravitational fields and not just electromagnetic. ¿It's the only way they could take that kind of pounding.

really? why is that? Gravity is the weakest of the 4 forces in nature.  ;)

M16A4

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POSTS: 608

Report this May. 12 2007, 10:38 pm

personally i think we are far from understanding the true power of electro magnetic feilds, gravity, plasma, warp fields and the like. Im sure it is possible to create some sort of deflector system that can stop kinetic energy. It may take a few hundred years after warp drives become common but we will get it eventually. like all things we think it is impossible and then it happens.

lanceromega

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POSTS: 3859

Report this May. 13 2007, 8:34 pm

Quote (M16A4 @ May 11 2007, 11:38 pm)
personally i think we are far from understanding the true power of electro magnetic feilds, gravity, plasma, warp fields and the like. Im sure it is possible to create some sort of deflector system that can stop kinetic energy. It may take a few hundred years after warp drives become common but we will get it eventually. like all things we think it is impossible and then it happens.

Stopping kinetic energy is not the problem, it the fact that momentum must be conserved.


Any momentum that the projectile carries is transfer to the object stopping it, that why you still get bruised, and injured when a bullet proof vest stops a bullet.

Any force field that stop an object must still transfer that momentum to the ship that mount the generator.

In the case of tiny sub atomic particles, the momentum they carry is transfer via the magnetic field to the coils, since the momentum each particle carries is tiny the structure that holds the magnetic field generator is not a problem.


Stopping an iron meteor the size of rock is. The Momentum is enought to break the mounting the generator is on and even break the coils...

international_space_agenc
y

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Report this May. 16 2007, 9:35 pm

Quote (M16A4 @ May 12 2007, 10:38 pm)
personally i think we are far from understanding the true power of electro magnetic feilds, gravity, plasma, warp fields and the like. Im sure it is possible to create some sort of deflector system that can stop kinetic energy. It may take a few hundred years after warp drives become common but we will get it eventually. like all things we think it is impossible and then it happens.

You are very right!   ;)

A force field technology would not have to directly stop a solid object, only divert it from a direct impact.  Like in Judo.  What gets trough could then be stopped or slowed down by a composite impact plate, like on modern tanks.

Very strong magnetic force fields can even bend or divert light waves (ie: laser & energy beams).  What gets through could be reflected by a polished silver outer skin (ie: light/energy reflector).

High intensity sound waves also have shown potential as a force field or type of shield.  Such technology can shatter or pulverize solid objects, and has even been used to move or suspend solid objects.

In the opening of Voyager, a scene was presented, where the ships force field (shields) diverts dust particles in a stellar dust cloud around the Voyager.  This was a nice effect, and presented the shield concept very well.

If the military does not already have such technology on the drawing boards or in testing, it will be surely in the next 10 years.

Anti-Gravity generation is also in work around the world, and is already in testing, and likely will be in actual use in 5 to 10 years.  This mainly is for propulsion, but could be used to repel or divert solid objects.

Newton¿s Laws have proven in modern physics to very true.  And the Newton Law for every action there must be an equal and opposite reaction!  Thus, if there is Gravity (Attraction), there must be Anti-Gravity (Repulsion).

Humanity is being guided to a future in space.
Has been for a long time now!

Gene Roddenberry was a very bright and knowledgeable man, and his vision of Star Trek was closer to truth than most may wish to believe.

Humanity is at a very dangerous cross roads in the development of its social and technological footprint.  Tribal goat herders can now access the technology of Atlantis.

Nuclear tipped spears are a real problem.

Also, the control of mass information (computers) and scientific knowledge (technology) by the corrupt elite of the Human Populations, is creating the genesis for tyranny on a mass scale.

The all seeing eye of Atlantis in the wrong hands is also a real problem.

These two key problems in the present Human Social & Technological Development and Progress, have Humanities future survival hanging in the balance.

The reason Gene Roddenberry presented the "PRIME DIRECTIVE" in Star Trek, as he knew very well that an extremely advanced technological society can NOT share its knowledge and technology with lesser-developed society, as this is a recipe for disaster.

To give the animal skin clothed natives nuclear tipped spears is NOT a good idea.

The "PRIME DIRECTIVE" presented in a simple human perspective, would be, NOT to give young children access to matches or bic lighters!  They are to immature and irresponsible to have access to these things which they cannot either fully understand or comprehend, and if they get access to these things, can seriously harm themselves and others either purposely or by sheer ignorance.

Humanity is presently at the stage of young children!

First comes Science Fiction!

Then comes Human Social Growth & Development!

Then comes Star Ships and Star Travel!

All things will come in due time!

Even shields and force fields!

Nicole Tesla was too far ahead for humanity in the realm of electro magnetic fields and gravity.  That is why all of his work was confiscated by the United States Government!

Tesla did in fact have Death Rays, Transmitted Power, Free Energy Systems, and other things of great importance.  They will see the light of day, when the time is right.

Live Long And Prosper!

:cool:

lanceromega

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POSTS: 3859

Report this May. 17 2007, 4:45 pm

Quote (international_space_agency @ May 15 2007, 10:35 pm)
Quote (M16A4 @ May 12 2007, 10:38 pm)
personally i think we are far from understanding the true power of electro magnetic feilds, gravity, plasma, warp fields and the like. Im sure it is possible to create some sort of deflector system that can stop kinetic energy. It may take a few hundred years after warp drives become common but we will get it eventually. like all things we think it is impossible and then it happens.

You are very right! ¿ ;)

A force field technology would not have to directly stop a solid object, only divert it from a direct impact. ¿Like in Judo. ¿What gets trough could then be stopped or slowed down by a composite impact plate, like on modern tanks.

Very strong magnetic force fields can even bend or divert light waves (ie: laser & energy beams). ¿What gets through could be reflected by a polished silver outer skin (ie: light/energy reflector).

High intensity sound waves also have shown potential as a force field or type of shield. ¿Such technology can shatter or pulverize solid objects, and has even been used to move or suspend solid objects.

In the opening of Voyager, a scene was presented, where the ships force field (shields) diverts dust particles in a stellar dust cloud around the Voyager. ¿This was a nice effect, and presented the shield concept very well.

If the military does not already have such technology on the drawing boards or in testing, it will be surely in the next 10 years.

Anti-Gravity generation is also in work around the world, and is already in testing, and likely will be in actual use in 5 to 10 years. ¿This mainly is for propulsion, but could be used to repel or divert solid objects.

Newton?s Laws have proven in modern physics to very true. ¿And the Newton Law for every action there must be an equal and opposite reaction! ¿Thus, if there is Gravity (Attraction), there must be Anti-Gravity (Repulsion).

Humanity is being guided to a future in space.
Has been for a long time now!

Gene Roddenberry was a very bright and knowledgeable man, and his vision of Star Trek was closer to truth than most may wish to believe.

Humanity is at a very dangerous cross roads in the development of its social and technological footprint. ¿Tribal goat herders can now access the technology of Atlantis.

Nuclear tipped spears are a real problem.

Also, the control of mass information (computers) and scientific knowledge (technology) by the corrupt elite of the Human Populations, is creating the genesis for tyranny on a mass scale.

The all seeing eye of Atlantis in the wrong hands is also a real problem.

These two key problems in the present Human Social & Technological Development and Progress, have Humanities future survival hanging in the balance.

The reason Gene Roddenberry presented the "PRIME DIRECTIVE" in Star Trek, as he knew very well that an extremely advanced technological society can NOT share its knowledge and technology with lesser-developed society, as this is a recipe for disaster.

To give the animal skin clothed natives nuclear tipped spears is NOT a good idea.

The "PRIME DIRECTIVE" presented in a simple human perspective, would be, NOT to give young children access to matches or bic lighters! ¿They are to immature and irresponsible to have access to these things which they cannot either fully understand or comprehend, and if they get access to these things, can seriously harm themselves and others either purposely or by sheer ignorance.

Humanity is presently at the stage of young children!

First comes Science Fiction!

Then comes Human Social Growth & Development!

Then comes Star Ships and Star Travel!

All things will come in due time!

Even shields and force fields!

Nicole Tesla was too far ahead for humanity in the realm of electro magnetic fields and gravity. ¿That is why all of his work was confiscated by the United States Government!

Tesla did in fact have Death Rays, Transmitted Power, Free Energy Systems, and other things of great importance. ¿They will see the light of day, when the time is right.

Live Long And Prosper!

:cool:

To deflect you must redirect momentum, that means applying a force.. Judo works because the one applying the force is brace against the ground. He still is taking the force upon him self but he spreading it across his entire body. A judo master can deflect a punch, but not a charging rhino .

Conservation of momentum is universal, it applies to quantum physics, as it does to plain newtonian mechanics and even string and M theory would obey this relationship. IT is base on a basic symmetry of space! That would under lie any physics or scientific theory.

also Light is uneffect by magnetic fields, photons donot normally interact with the virtual photons of magnetic fields except thru rare QED interactions, only extremely powerful lasers would be effected, we are talking about lasers who intensity is in the range of 10^25 watts /cm ^3, way beyond the range of any laser we have today.

There have been a slight detection of a minor deflection of laser in powerful magnetic fields ( 4 telsa) the deflection is  not due to the interaction of the photons with the fields but with a particle called an axion, this is the first proof that axions exist. Even then the deflection is so small that it could only be detected by observing a slight phase shift in the laser light.

Sound doesnot work in space... So that not a valid solution.

As it stands Force fields (Magnetic or otherwise) as means to protect against large impactors is not practical, it far easier to vaporize and incoming object thus allow it momentum to be spread over a wider area of the ship hull which could be armor and easily handle the diminish force.

This is the principle behind the Whipple Shield , which uses a meteor impact against a thin outer wall to vaporize the meteor and then the spray of vaporize material is stop by a stronger  inner wall.

Deflecting laser or pure photons are easy, any beam of light would have a tiny momentum, particle beams of equal power would have higher momentum, even with the magnetic force fields nasa is designing it would require millions of watts of power to stop fairly low energy cosmic rays, it would collasp if struck by higher end cosmic rays ( the most powerful cosmic ray particle had the kinetic energy of a baseball thrown at 90 miles per hours.) which would cause the energy in the field to be dump into a Resistor bank.

As for Antigravity, Most of all current research in this has been a burst. Einstein law of general relativity show that the generation of anti grav requires exotic substances such as negative energy or pressure ; or exotic matter. None of this is available on earth or with the level of technology we possess with the power sources avaliable to our civilization.

Lasers can be block by plasma (Cold plasma) while hi speed kinetic impactor, would need first to be vaporize by a point defense system or by complex armor like a whipple shield.

international_space_agenc
y

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POSTS: 831

Report this May. 17 2007, 6:13 pm

Quote (lanceromega @ May 17 2007, 4:45 pm)
To deflect you must redirect momentum, that means applying a force.. Judo works because the one applying the force is brace against the ground. He still is taking the force upon him self but he spreading it across his entire body. A judo master can deflect a punch, but not a charging rhino.


Not so true!  A bull fighter (not dealing with the red cape issue) will deflect a charging bull sometimes by pushing the bull to the side deflecting the brunt of a head on collision.  You are correct that the mass of the Bull Fighter will be offset by the Bull, but only a very small fraction of what a dead on impact would have resulted to the Bull Fighter.  This would be a glancing blow, and is what a repulser/deflector shield would do.  The vast majority of the imparted momentum (Energy) of the Bulls moving mass, would simply move past the Bull Fighter, and would not be directly imparted (transferred) to the Bull Fighter.

Quote (lanceromega @ May 17 2007, 4:45 pm)
Conservation of momentum is universal, it applies to quantum physics, as it does to plain newtonian mechanics and even string and M theory would obey this relationship. IT is base on a basic symmetry of space! That would under lie any physics or scientific theory.


"Conservation of momentum is universal" O.K.?  I addressed this above in the deflection example of the Bull Fighter.  These laws have not been violated, either in the example of the Bull Fighter or my original example of a magnet or gravity based shield/deflector.  That why in Star Trek they are called "DEFLECTOR SHILEDS"!  Not "IMPACT SHIELDS"!

Quote (lanceromega @ May 17 2007, 4:45 pm)
also Light is uneffect by magnetic fields, photons donot normally interact with the virtual photons of magnetic fields except thru rare QED interactions, only extremely powerful lasers would be effected, we are talking about lasers who intensity is in the range of 10^25 watts /cm ^3, way beyond the range of any laser we have today.


Light is affected by Strong Magnetic Fields, as Light is Pure Energy.  The stronger the Magnetic Field, the more deviation of the light beam.  A black hole can bend light at 90 degrees!  the rest of your gibberish is flif fluf.

Quote (lanceromega @ May 17 2007, 4:45 pm)
There have been a slight detection of a minor deflection of laser in powerful magnetic fields ( 4 telsa) the deflection is ?not due to the interaction of the photons with the fields but with a particle called an axion, this is the first proof that axions exist. Even then the deflection is so small that it could only be detected by observing a slight phase shift in the laser light.


Again needless fliff fluff.  Not impressing me with fancy words.  Bottom line, light/energy beams are in fact deviated (bent) by powerful magnetic fields.

Axions - are one of the leading candidates for dark matter, along with supersymmetric particles called neutralinos. They were first proposed explain why the strong interaction, unlike the weak force, does not violate charge-parity (CP) symmetry.  Axions are thought to be produced in the Sun when thermal photons scatter from electrons and protons in the solar core. Theoretical models and astrophysical observations constrain the mass of the axion to values between a millionth of an electron volt (eV) and a few eV. The detection of axions would represent further evidence for new physics beyond the Standard Model of particle physics.


Quote (lanceromega @ May 17 2007, 4:45 pm)
Sound doesnot work in space... So that not a valid solution.


True!  however in an atmosphere of a planet, ship, station, base or in an aquatic environment, this would be a factor.  In the vacuum of space you are correct, sound waves would not work as there would be no medium in which they could travel (ie: gas/air/water).

Quote (lanceromega @ May 17 2007, 4:45 pm)
As it stands Force fields (Magnetic or otherwise) as means to protect against large impactors is not practical, it far easier to vaporize and incoming object thus allow it momentum to be spread over a wider area of the ship hull which could be armor and easily handle the diminish force.


True, under present knowledge and technology.  However, shields are a real option in the near future, and would compliment any active anti-mass (projectile) weapon system or anti-impact armor plating.

Quote (lanceromega @ May 17 2007, 4:45 pm)
This is the principle behind the Whipple Shield , which uses a meteor impact against a thin outer wall to vaporize the meteor and then the spray of vaporize material is stop by a stronger ?inner wall.


True.  Whipple Shield - United States Patent 5610363 - A hypervelocity impact (HVI) Whipple Shield and a method for shielding a wall from penetration by high velocity particle impacts where the Whipple Shield is comprised of spaced apart inner and outer metal sheets or walls with an intermediate cloth barrier arrangement comprised of ceramic cloth and high strength cloth which are interrelated by ballistic formulae.

However, magnetic/gravity shields can work, which was the issue of this thread, and my post!

Quote (lanceromega @ May 17 2007, 4:45 pm)
Deflecting laser or pure photons are easy, any beam of light would have a tiny momentum, particle beams of equal power would have higher momentum, even with the magnetic force fields nasa is designing it would require millions of watts of power to stop fairly low energy cosmic rays, it would collasp if struck by higher end cosmic rays ( the most powerful cosmic ray particle had the kinetic energy of a baseball thrown at 90 miles per hours.) which would cause the energy in the field to be dump into a Resistor bank.


Again, we are NOT talking about "IMPACT" shields, we are talking about "DEFLECTOR" shields.  Even NASA has planned to encompass a deep space manned ship in a Magnetic Field, thus causing rays and particles to be diverted around the ship, and not to directly impact the ship.  This would reduce the need for lead and gold cosmic ray shielding, which would have massive weight (mass) and would require more fuel and propulsion needs.  The magnetic field of the Earth likewise diverts harmful solar and cosmic radiation around the Earth.  If it were not for the Earths Magnetic Field, we would all be dead!

Quote (lanceromega @ May 17 2007, 4:45 pm)
As for Antigravity, Most of all current research in this has been a burst. Einstein law of general relativity show that the generation of anti grav requires exotic substances such as negative energy or pressure ; or exotic matter. None of this is available on earth or with the level of technology we possess with the power sources avaliable to our civilization.


Not True!

**1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiS1o0KpjT4
This one will open your eyes!

2) http://ufo.whipnet.org/xdocs/antigravity

3) http://merlib.org/taxonomy/term/7%2C405%2C279

4) http://www.janes.com/aerospace/civil/news/jdw/jdw020729_1_n.shtml

5) http://www.padrak.com/ine/NEN_4_7_4.html

6) http://www.npl.washington.edu/AV/altvw83.html

Quote (lanceromega @ May 17 2007, 4:45 pm)
Lasers can be block by plasma (Cold plasma) while hi speed kinetic impactor, would need first to be vaporize by a point defense system or by complex armor like a whipple shield.


O.k.!  Again, what does this have to do with shields!

lanceromega

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 3859

Report this May. 18 2007, 11:51 am

Quote (international_space_agency @ May 16 2007, 7:13 pm)
Quote (lanceromega @ May 17 2007, 4:45 pm)
To deflect you must redirect momentum, that means applying a force.. Judo works because the one applying the force is brace against the ground. He still is taking the force upon him self but he spreading it across his entire body. A judo master can deflect a punch, but not a charging rhino.


Not so true! ?A bull fighter (not dealing with the red cape issue) will deflect a charging bull sometimes by pushing the bull to the side deflecting the brunt of a head on collision. ?You are correct that the mass of the Bull Fighter will be offset by the Bull, but only a very small fraction of what a dead on impact would have resulted to the Bull Fighter. ?This would be a glancing blow, and is what a repulser/deflector shield would do. ?The vast majority of the imparted momentum (Energy) of the Bulls moving mass, would simply move past the Bull Fighter, and would not be directly imparted (transferred) to the Bull Fighter.

Quote (lanceromega @ May 17 2007, 4:45 pm)
Conservation of momentum is universal, it applies to quantum physics, as it does to plain newtonian mechanics and even string and M theory would obey this relationship. IT is base on a basic symmetry of space! That would under lie any physics or scientific theory.


"Conservation of momentum is universal" O.K.? ?I addressed this above in the deflection example of the Bull Fighter. ?These laws have not been violated, either in the example of the Bull Fighter or my original example of a magnet or gravity based shield/deflector. ?That why in Star Trek they are called "DEFLECTOR SHILEDS"! ?Not "IMPACT SHIELDS"!

Quote (lanceromega @ May 17 2007, 4:45 pm)
also Light is uneffect by magnetic fields, photons donot normally interact with the virtual photons of magnetic fields except thru rare QED interactions, only extremely powerful lasers would be effected, we are talking about lasers who intensity is in the range of 10^25 watts /cm ^3, way beyond the range of any laser we have today.


Light is affected by Strong Magnetic Fields, as Light is Pure Energy. ?The stronger the Magnetic Field, the more deviation of the light beam. ?A black hole can bend light at 90 degrees! ?the rest of your gibberish is flif fluf.

Quote (lanceromega @ May 17 2007, 4:45 pm)
There have been a slight detection of a minor deflection of laser in powerful magnetic fields ( 4 telsa) the deflection is ?not due to the interaction of the photons with the fields but with a particle called an axion, this is the first proof that axions exist. Even then the deflection is so small that it could only be detected by observing a slight phase shift in the laser light.


Again needless fliff fluff. ?Not impressing me with fancy words. ?Bottom line, light/energy beams are in fact deviated (bent) by powerful magnetic fields.

Axions - are one of the leading candidates for dark matter, along with supersymmetric particles called neutralinos. They were first proposed explain why the strong interaction, unlike the weak force, does not violate charge-parity (CP) symmetry. ?Axions are thought to be produced in the Sun when thermal photons scatter from electrons and protons in the solar core. Theoretical models and astrophysical observations constrain the mass of the axion to values between a millionth of an electron volt (eV) and a few eV. The detection of axions would represent further evidence for new physics beyond the Standard Model of particle physics.


Quote (lanceromega @ May 17 2007, 4:45 pm)
Sound doesnot work in space... So that not a valid solution.


True! ?however in an atmosphere of a planet, ship, station, base or in an aquatic environment, this would be a factor. ?In the vacuum of space you are correct, sound waves would not work as there would be no medium in which they could travel (ie: gas/air/water).

Quote (lanceromega @ May 17 2007, 4:45 pm)
As it stands Force fields (Magnetic or otherwise) as means to protect against large impactors is not practical, it far easier to vaporize and incoming object thus allow it momentum to be spread over a wider area of the ship hull which could be armor and easily handle the diminish force.


True, under present knowledge and technology. ?However, shields are a real option in the near future, and would compliment any active anti-mass (projectile) weapon system or anti-impact armor plating.

Quote (lanceromega @ May 17 2007, 4:45 pm)
This is the principle behind the Whipple Shield , which uses a meteor impact against a thin outer wall to vaporize the meteor and then the spray of vaporize material is stop by a stronger ?inner wall.


True. ?Whipple Shield - United States Patent 5610363 - A hypervelocity impact (HVI) Whipple Shield and a method for shielding a wall from penetration by high velocity particle impacts where the Whipple Shield is comprised of spaced apart inner and outer metal sheets or walls with an intermediate cloth barrier arrangement comprised of ceramic cloth and high strength cloth which are interrelated by ballistic formulae.

However, magnetic/gravity shields can work, which was the issue of this thread, and my post!

Quote (lanceromega @ May 17 2007, 4:45 pm)
Deflecting laser or pure photons are easy, any beam of light would have a tiny momentum, particle beams of equal power would have higher momentum, even with the magnetic force fields nasa is designing it would require millions of watts of power to stop fairly low energy cosmic rays, it would collasp if struck by higher end cosmic rays ( the most powerful cosmic ray particle had the kinetic energy of a baseball thrown at 90 miles per hours.) which would cause the energy in the field to be dump into a Resistor bank.


Again, we are NOT talking about "IMPACT" shields, we are talking about "DEFLECTOR" shields. ?Even NASA has planned to encompass a deep space manned ship in a Magnetic Field, thus causing rays and particles to be diverted around the ship, and not to directly impact the ship. ?This would reduce the need for lead and gold cosmic ray shielding, which would have massive weight (mass) and would require more fuel and propulsion needs. ?The magnetic field of the Earth likewise diverts harmful solar and cosmic radiation around the Earth. ?If it were not for the Earths Magnetic Field, we would all be dead!

Quote (lanceromega @ May 17 2007, 4:45 pm)
As for Antigravity, Most of all current research in this has been a burst. Einstein law of general relativity show that the generation of anti grav requires exotic substances such as negative energy or pressure ; or exotic matter. None of this is available on earth or with the level of technology we possess with the power sources avaliable to our civilization.


Not True!

**1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiS1o0KpjT4
This one will open your eyes!

2) http://ufo.whipnet.org/xdocs/antigravity

3) http://merlib.org/taxonomy/term/7%2C405%2C279

4) http://www.janes.com/aerospace/civil/news/jdw/jdw020729_1_n.shtml

5) http://www.padrak.com/ine/NEN_4_7_4.html

6) http://www.npl.washington.edu/AV/altvw83.html

Quote (lanceromega @ May 17 2007, 4:45 pm)
Lasers can be block by plasma (Cold plasma) while hi speed kinetic impactor, would need first to be vaporize by a point defense system or by complex armor like a whipple shield.


O.k.! ?Again, what does this have to do with shields!

1. A bull fighter doesnot deflect a bull but lure the bull to  follow his cape..No physical contact is necessary it the bull that does all the physical work..

2. To deflect is a physical act, magnetic fields deflect charge particle, there is no impact, but a gradual exchange of virtual photons that alter the momentum and the vector of the particle moment... The field also is effected, the device or object that generate the field will have an electrical or counter magnetic force generated, this is call eddy currents and in electrical device can actually be moved by this..

Gravity works in the same way, the field deflect the object but the source of the gravity field is also moved..

3. False, magnetic fields are virtual photons,light is also photons, photons donot normally interact with one another. You can see this your self, get a flashlight, and shine the beam toward any hi power magnetic source whether a MRI, a junk yard electromagnetic, of refrigator magnet the beam is not effect at the least.

Magnetic fields work on electrical charges and photons will interact with charge particles, all of quantum mechanics is build on this, but they donot interact with each other except thru rare QED effects that require extremely intense beams of light, no deflection of light due to magnetic field of pulsar has ever been detected and that is the strongest fields we know of.

Gravity bends light due to the fact that it warps space and the light beam is travelling alone a straight line path is a warp space time

Blackhole bends light due to gravity not magnetic effects..
And the blackhole is also move by the beam of light but the deflection is two small for it to be detected due the blackhole greater mass ( Photons have no rest mass but still have a virtual mass due to E=MC square, so photons have momentum also but it extremely small)

4. ship atmoshpere is inside a ship, no sounds travel thru the vacuum of space. so we agree on this so sonic weapons are not a factor.

5. False magnetic fields deflector still impart momentum on the generator, a simple experiment with magnetic will show.

place a magnetic on a string. Place a nail on a string. bring the strings close to gether and you will see both the magnet and the nail move toward each other... The force of magnetism work both on the magnetic and the nail.. A deflecting a Hi speed kinetic impactor would also have the same effect.

6. as for antigravity, great links, but notice none of the so call experiments have worked, Antigravity research has been a long string of failures, whether it deal with lifters ( that is due to ion wind, lifter do not work in vacuum as the show "Myth busters" demostrated, to the so call superconductor Gravity shield. None of your links show a single laboratory has verified proof of antigrav effect..

For a force field to work it would still be effect by Newtonian effects, so the craft will still feel the force of the object. The idea is find a way to spread out the force over a wider area, which you do with either point defense which fragment an object or vaporize it , so only a small amount of the object impacts. Deflecting light or radiation is no problem since it force these particles generate is small. Stopping a meteor is another thing and no matter what the tech level, point defenses and armor would alway be a better way than some kind of deflector field..

international_space_agenc
y

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 831

Report this May. 19 2007, 12:16 pm

Quote (lanceromega @ May 18 2007, 11:51 am)
1. A bull fighter doesnot deflect a bull but lure the bull to follow his cape..No physical contact is necessary it the bull that does all the physical work..


Sigh........  Read my post, or I will not waste my time with an answer!  Ie: aside from the cape (deception leading to self change in course and mass of the bull).

Quote (lanceromega @ May 18 2007, 11:51 am)
2. To deflect is a physical act, magnetic fields deflect charge particle, there is no impact, but a gradual exchange of virtual photons that alter the momentum and the vector of the particle moment... The field also is effected, the device or object that generate the field will have an electrical or counter magnetic force generated, this is call eddy currents and in electrical device can actually be moved by this..


Sigh.............  Fiff Fluff again!  If a bullet hits an object, it penetraits because all the force/mass/momentium is focused on a small area.  If the bullet enters a strongmagnetic field that is fixed/connected to the taget object (ship), the entire mass/weight of the target is brought to bear on the bullet.  The ship is tons of mass and the bullet is ounces of mass (not counting any (motion/movement)/momentium/kenetic energy imparted to either object.  The Kenetic Energy of the Bullet would have to be vastly greater than the Mass & Kenetic Energy of the Ship to cause the ships mass to be moved in any significant manner.  In this way the mass/kenetic energy of the Bullet is distributed over the entire mass of the Ship, an thus is NOT focused on a single small focused point, and therefore would not penetrait and would either be slowed and stopped or deflected into an alternate path (as when the bull fighter uses his hand to push the bull, and thus deflecting the bulls path past him).

Photon - particle composing light and other forms of electromagnetic radiation , sometimes called light quantum. The photon has no charge and no mass. About the beginning of the 20th cent., the classical theory that light is emitted and absorbed by matter in a continuous stream came under criticism because it led to incorrect predictions about several effects, notably the radiation of light by incandescent bodies (see black body ) and the photoelectric effect . These effects can be explained only by assuming that the energy is transferred in discrete packets, or photons, the energy of each photon being equal to the frequency of the light multiplied by Planck's constant, h. Because the value of Planck's constant is extremely small (6.62 ¿ 10 -27 erg sec.), the discrete nature of light energy is not evident in most optical phenomena. The light imparts energy and momentum to a charged particle when one of the photons collides with it, as is demonstrated by the Compton effect . See quantum theory.

Quote (lanceromega @ May 18 2007, 11:51 am)
Gravity works in the same way, the field deflect the object but the source of the gravity field is also moved..


Sigh.......   Yes, but in ratio to bullet ship mass and kenetic energy, ie: the movement of the ship is nearly unnoticable

Quote (lanceromega @ May 18 2007, 11:51 am)
3. False, magnetic fields are virtual photons,light is also photons, photons donot normally interact with one another. You can see this your self, get a flashlight, and shine the beam toward any hi power magnetic source whether a MRI, a junk yard electromagnetic, of refrigator magnet the beam is not effect at the least.


Sigh....., lets not talk Quantum Phyisics!  Most here are already lost as it is.  Keep it simple and so the common man can understand, or you will lose 95% of people!

Light beams are deviated/altered by Strong Magnetic Fields, I will leave it at that!

http://www.google.com/answers/threadview?id=430345

http://sci4um.com/about19873-15.html

http://www.adras.com/can-lig....-6.html
http://flux.aps.org/meetings/YR97/BAPSPAC97/abs/S570.html

Quote (lanceromega @ May 18 2007, 11:51 am)
Magnetic fields work on electrical charges and photons will interact with charge particles, all of quantum mechanics is build on this, but they donot interact with each other except thru rare QED effects that require extremely intense beams of light, no deflection of light due to magnetic field of pulsar has ever been detected and that is the strongest fields we know of.


QED - "quantum electrodynamic" effects on the interaction between quantum dots and the electromagnetic field. Investigations of quantized matter-field interactions involving self-assembled quantum dots required an advance in the understanding of the electronic structure and optical properties of strained quantum dots. Consequently much of the research carried out under this grant centered on clarifying these issues. Problems investigated included: optimization of the growth process by which the quantum dots were formed; physical characterization of the microstructure of the quantum dots so as to identify their symmetries and to enable the creation of appropriate electronic structure models; the use of these results to calculate electronic structure; and spectroscopic tests of the models.

Quote (lanceromega @ May 18 2007, 11:51 am)
Gravity bends light due to the fact that it warps space and the light beam is travelling alone a straight line path is a warp space time


Agreed, and True!

Quote (lanceromega @ May 18 2007, 11:51 am)
Blackhole bends light due to gravity not magnetic effects..
And the blackhole is also move by the beam of light but the deflection is two small for it to be detected due the blackhole greater mass ( Photons have no rest mass but still have a virtual mass due to E=MC square, so photons have momentum also but it extremely small)


Sigh..., fliff fluff again!

Quote (lanceromega @ May 18 2007, 11:51 am)
4. ship atmoshpere is inside a ship, no sounds travel thru the vacuum of space. so we agree on this so sonic weapons are not a factor.


Agreed, (In Space).

Quote (lanceromega @ May 18 2007, 11:51 am)
5. False magnetic fields deflector still impart momentum on the generator, a simple experiment with magnetic will show.


Agreed, (But the bullet example above shows the deflector shield concept would work)

Quote (lanceromega @ May 18 2007, 11:51 am)
place a magnetic on a string. Place a nail on a string. bring the strings close to gether and you will see both the magnet and the nail move toward each other... The force of magnetism work both on the magnetic and the nail.. A deflecting a Hi speed kinetic impactor would also have the same effect.


Agreed, (But the bullet example above shows the deflector shield concept would work)

Quote (lanceromega @ May 18 2007, 11:51 am)
6. as for antigravity, great links, but notice none of the so call experiments have worked, Antigravity research has been a long string of failures, whether it deal with lifters ( that is due to ion wind, lifter do not work in vacuum as the show "Myth busters" demostrated, to the so call superconductor Gravity shield. None of your links show a single laboratory has verified proof of antigrav effect..


You think these top secrete labs would tell all??!!, think again!

Just because you do not know a thing, does not mean it is not so! :cool:

SR-71 & U-2 were around and in full operation for nearly 10 years, an nearly no one in the outside world knew about these vehicles and programs.  The same is true today about Anti-Grav and things like the Aroura Space Plane!  I assure you, they are there! :cool:

Quote (lanceromega @ May 18 2007, 11:51 am)
For a force field to work it would still be effect by Newtonian effects, so the craft will still feel the force of the object. The idea is find a way to spread out the force over a wider area, which you do with either point defense which fragment an object or vaporize it , so only a small amount of the object impacts. Deflecting light or radiation is no problem since it force these particles generate is small. Stopping a meteor is another thing and no matter what the tech level, point defenses and armor would alway be a better way than some kind of deflector field..


Agreed, (But the bullet example above shows the deflector shield concept would work)

lanceromega

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Report this May. 22 2007, 4:50 pm

Quote
Sigh.............  Fiff Fluff again!  If a bullet hits an object, it penetraits because all the force/mass/momentium is focused on a small area.  If the bullet enters a strongmagnetic field that is fixed/connected to the taget object (ship), the entire mass/weight of the target is brought to bear on the bullet.  The ship is tons of mass and the bullet is ounces of mass (not counting any (motion/movement)/momentium/kenetic energy imparted to either object.  The Kenetic Energy of the Bullet would have to be vastly greater than the Mass & Kenetic Energy of the Ship to cause the ships mass to be moved in any significant manner.  In this way the mass/kenetic energy of the Bullet is distributed over the entire mass of the Ship, an thus is NOT focused on a single small focused point, and therefore would not penetrait and would either be slowed and stopped or deflected into an alternate path (as when the bull fighter uses his hand to push the bull, and thus deflecting the bulls path past him).

Photon - particle composing light and other forms of electromagnetic radiation , sometimes called light quantum. The photon has no charge and no mass. About the beginning of the 20th cent., the classical theory that light is emitted and absorbed by matter in a continuous stream came under criticism because it led to incorrect predictions about several effects, notably the radiation of light by incandescent bodies (see black body ) and the photoelectric effect . These effects can be explained only by assuming that the energy is transferred in discrete packets, or photons, the energy of each photon being equal to the frequency of the light multiplied by Planck's constant, h. Because the value of Planck's constant is extremely small (6.62 ? 10 -27 erg sec.), the discrete nature of light energy is not evident in most optical phenomena. The light imparts energy and momentum to a charged particle when one of the photons collides with it, as is demonstrated by the Compton effect . See quantum theory.


Fluff!... :) I'll tried not to confuse you with the facts  :laugh:
The compton effect is photons interacting with charge particles such as electron, not virtual photons as found in magnetic fields, another attempt to insert a Red herring into the debate.

Photons to Photons reaction are rare and are cause when an one photon turn into a pair of charge particle ( this is due to quantum fluctation, the particle will come back together in microsecond to reform the photons) but such interact is so rare it is only seen when intensity or energies off the photons are at level that cannot be produce in any lab at this time.

Even the magnetic fields of Pulsars are not strong enought and only the photon product by Blastar ( Hi energy quasar) have been observed interacting with photons from the big bang...

As for the bullet, a bullet needs not penetrate an object to cause damage. Any one shot while wearing a bullet proof can tell you about the bruises, broken bones and even death can occur due to impact.

A bullet entering a magnetic field, act on the magnet not the ship, the magnet would need to be braced, also the bullet entering the field creates eddy currents, that can inturn demagnetize the magnetic, in electro magnetic it creates a back currents that will heat the wiring and can short out the system.

The threat of this happening has cause NASA to design massive energy sinks in their own magnetic protection projects
to soak up the electrical current when their own magnetic field using superconductor collasp.

A Mere Hi energy proton is enought to cause such a collasp, as well as a speck of iron meteor.

The newest hope is to use Plasma bubbles instead, but they would not be able to stop any kind of micrometeor.


;)  ;

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