Star Trek

I was watch a TOS EP that other day, and Kirk had to try to make a deal for trade with a planet that had what the federation needed, but the local government had in fighting with the faction that controled the item that was needed. So you see the problem, Kirk had to find a way to get what they needed, without breaking the rules of the federation to do it.

So in STO would you like to see missions, where you had to use Diplomacy vs the Phaser, and if you did use force you could not only run the risk of losing the item for trade, but Starfleet would take away prestige from your leadership skill tree?

Just a thought.

I like the sound of it SirCedirc2 it really is the heart of Star Trek at it's best.  Now sometimes phasers were the only solution unfortunatley (look at Voyager).  Diplomacy should always be the first goal and if you skip right past it and going phaser banks and torpedos blasting then you should kiss some leadership/respect (the way races approach you) points out the window if you dont get slapped with rapport too.

The best defense, is an awsome offense.

The difference between a leader and a commander, is knowing when to use force, when there is no other option.

I think the phrase 'Talk softly and carry a big stick' sums it up.

Quote (DeDFred @ Aug. 04 2006, 2:26 pm)

The best defense, is an awsome offense. The difference between a leader and a commander, is knowing when to use force, when there is no other option.

That's the rub, though:

There is *always* another option.  Even in a 'leader vs. commander' scenario, both will seek a peaceful resolution *first*, and avoid violence at all costs.

Quote (MadMickey @ Aug. 04 2006, 3:15 pm)

There is *always* another option.  Even in a 'leader vs. commander' scenario, both will seek a peaceful resolution *first*, and avoid violence at all costs.

No Sir,

That is a coward, not someone that should be sitting in the center chair.

You are empowered to use deadly force, when your ship and or crew may succumb to harm. Period.

Some times a pre-emptive strike is warranted.

Thats why they call it Captain's preogative.

We know the general rules of engagement, the Prime Directives,
and the Starfleet regulations that bind us to law, and differ us from star empires or dictatorships.

Quote (DeDFred @ Aug. 11 2006, 1:12 pm)

Quote (MadMickey @ Aug. 04 2006, 3:15 pm) There is *always* another option.  Even in a 'leader vs. commander' scenario, both will seek a peaceful resolution *first*, and avoid violence at all costs. No Sir, That is a coward, not someone that should be sitting in the center chair. You are empowered to use deadly force, when your ship and or crew may succumb to harm. Period. Some times a pre-emptive strike is warranted. Thats why they call it Captain's preogative. We know the general rules of engagement, the Prime Directives, and the Starfleet regulations that bind us to law, and differ us from star empires or dictatorships.

I would hardly call someone who doesn't use force a coward.  I think that is a very ignorant idea especially coming from a Star Trek fan.  For example consider Star Trek TNG, Captain Picard hardly ever uses phasers or photon torpedoes and is usually capable of handling the situation in another fashion.  If anything FORCE is the weapon of cowards because those who always resort to violence hardly ever use their brains.  Before being a Star Trek fan, I used to actually be the Anti Star Trek, I was pretty much a jock.  If anyone argued with me I would just physically overpower them.  However, now I've gone to college and I use my brain to solve problems.  Force is a weapon of the weak.  Peaceful resolutions and diplomacy are weapons of the intelligent.  Whoever says FORCE is the only weapon definitely should not be sitting in the Captain's chair, there are plenty of such people in history and they have all been defeated by must more intelligent men

Quote (dkaplan131 @ Aug. 11 2006, 1:20 pm)

(1) I think that is a very ignorant idea especially coming from a Star Trek fan.  For example consider Star Trek TNG (2) now I've gone to college

(1) Lets not. Some of us prefer the TOS days of command by the seat of your pants. When there was only 13 heavy Crusiers, and you had to weigh every action, and bring your ship home, for there wasnt another one to take its place.

I dont pay much attention to the pussifed Star Trek after TOS. Not my cup of tea.  How ever, I has seen lots of it.

(2) So now that your head has be filled by liberal ex-hippies for several years. You think that you can talk your way out of every situation. Please fly to any Islamo-fasist state and tlak your way out of being beheaded, just for being not fo thier kind.

Or maybe you were thought, just to roll over and convert to thier way, its the best way to save your skin.

Not me bucko, As in life, and gaming. I play only ONE way.

To win, and thats by any means I deem needed for the servival of my ship and crew.

I know a lot of you cant understand this. I didnt see higher education until after I did a tour in combat boots at the ripe age of 17.

If I need a diplomat on my vessel, you will be the first one I call.
When you need someone to get your number 4 out of the ringer, my comm is always open.

Quote (DeDFred @ Aug. 11 2006, 8:20 pm)

Quote (dkaplan131 @ Aug. 11 2006, 1:20 pm) (1) I think that is a very ignorant idea especially coming from a Star Trek fan.  For example consider Star Trek TNG (2) now I've gone to college (1) Lets not. Some of us prefer the TOS days of command by the seat of your pants. When there was only 13 heavy Crusiers, and you had to weigh every action, and bring your ship home, for there wasnt another one to take its place. I dont pay much attention to the pussifed Star Trek after TOS. Not my cup of tea.  How ever, I has seen lots of it. (2) So now that your head has be filled by liberal ex-hippies for several years. You think that you can talk your way out of every situation. Please fly to any Islamo-fasist state and tlak your way out of being beheaded, just for being not fo thier kind. Or maybe you were thought, just to roll over and convert to thier way, its the best way to save your skin. Not me bucko, As in life, and gaming. I play only ONE way. To win, and thats by any means I deem needed for the servival of my ship and crew. I know a lot of you cant understand this. I didnt see higher education until after I did a tour in combat boots at the ripe age of 17. If I need a diplomat on my vessel, you will be the first one I call. When you need someone to get your number 4 out of the ringer, my comm is always open.

Your reference to Islam is an important example of what I was talking.  These extremists are people who don't use logical reasoning to guide their actions, they use their misguided beliefs to justify senseless killing.  These are the types of people where the LAST RESORT of violence must be used.  I never said fighting would never happen, I said it was a last resort.  I assume from the way you talk about hippies and from the fact that you did a combat tour when you were 17, you fought in vietnam.  You should understand the horrors of war and that violence truly is the LAST resort and shouldn't be the solution for every petty conflict.  Two intelligent men with patience can save millions of lives.  Two hot-tempered ignoramuses can cause atrocities such as the vietnam war.  

And for your information, I hold nothing but contempt for hippies, and as a matter of fact my major in school has nothing to do with politics.  I don't even take humanities classes.  I'm a physics major, my professors never talk about politics.

Quote (DeDFred @ Aug. 11 2006, 8:20 pm)

Quote (dkaplan131 @ Aug. 11 2006, 1:20 pm) (1) I think that is a very ignorant idea especially coming from a Star Trek fan. ¿For example consider Star Trek TNG (2) now I've gone to college (1) Lets not. Some of us prefer the TOS days of command by the seat of your pants. When there was only 13 heavy Crusiers, and you had to weigh every action, and bring your ship home, for there wasnt another one to take its place. I dont pay much attention to the pussifed Star Trek after TOS. Not my cup of tea. ¿How ever, I has seen lots of it. (2) So now that your head has be filled by liberal ex-hippies for several years. You think that you can talk your way out of every situation. Please fly to any Islamo-fasist state and tlak your way out of being beheaded, just for being not fo thier kind. Or maybe you were thought, just to roll over and convert to thier way, its the best way to save your skin. Not me bucko, As in life, and gaming. I play only ONE way. To win, and thats by any means I deem needed for the servival of my ship and crew. I know a lot of you cant understand this. I didnt see higher education until after I did a tour in combat boots at the ripe age of 17. If I need a diplomat on my vessel, you will be the first one I call. When you need someone to get your number 4 out of the ringer, my comm is always open.

DeD, you post proves the other guy's point.  They even kill their own kind so just because you "not like them" doesn't hold water.

If you can't find a peaceful solution, maybe the best thing to do is completely vacate an area.  Find a quadrant to spread the federation's good will.  All the ST captain needs to do is look at Earth in the early 21st century, and you can see there is no point in trying to defend or justify some people.  Sometimes it better to just walk away and let other people kill each other off.  Then you can come in and claim some cheap property.

Just a thought.

Quote (Larzz @ Aug. 11 2006, 9:16 pm)

If you can't find a peaceful solution, maybe the best thing to do is completely vacate an area.  Find a quadrant to spread the federation's good will.

Aye,

Advance to the rear, and find other beings to buy your goods, and check out thier females.

Point taken.

Gentlemen, gentlemen, please...

The true essence of cowardice, is inaction. Whether by way of defending your people, or being diplomatic in your stance, it does not matter, it's the man who does nothing that is a coward. The true coward is the man that puts himself out of danger while others take the danger upon themselves. It is the duty of the Captain to both do his job AND be brave enough to use force when the time comes.

Love the pissing match. Really I do. Its epic.

Its also nonsense.

Cedric has a good idea. It is like most other games where reputation is a factor. Do A and it will affect B.
Gung ho your way around the Galaxy and they will stop sending you on diplomatic missions and instead stick you in some empty quadrant with a gas cloud to occupy you.

Captains perogative does not equate to "shoot it cause it looks funny and might possibly shoot me".

~Ortus

Quote (JonathanWhitefire @ Aug. 13 2006, 2:10 pm)

Gentlemen, gentlemen, please... The true essence of cowardice, is inaction. Whether by way of defending your people, or being diplomatic in your stance, it does not matter, it's the man who does nothing that is a coward. The true coward is the man that puts himself out of danger while others take the danger upon themselves. It is the duty of the Captain to both do his job AND be brave enough to use force when the time comes.

So are you saying that during wartime, anyone who does not "sign up" so to speak, is a coward?

I always thought the general philosophy of Starfleet was peaceful exploration.

We are to use Kirk, Picard, Sisko, Janeway, and (sometimes even) Archer as role models for our roles as commanding officers.

We fire in self-defense. We fire when we know the ship and crew suffer a lethal threat. It is the way of things. It is regulation to use lethal force when all other alternatives have failed. Even if an unidentified vessel approaches without communication, and could be a lethal threat, it is regulation to go to yellow (not red) alert.

Kirk was an interesting character and they put him in some rather hilarious situations. (laughs) Yet, he tried communication and peaceful solutions multiple times before using weaponry.

Picard was the greatest diplomat. He ensured peace between so many worlds. He truly talked his way through most of the series. I think he was the most honorable man in Star Trek history. In his career, he maintained the integrity of the Federation, despite the threat of his own life. Those who did not maintain that integrity were exposed, with an example being Admiral Daugherty.

Sisko well... he was a diplomat, when people stopped shooting at him and trying to take over the Alpha Quadrant. The thing is... he let them shoot first.

The Voyager crew would not have survived the Delta Quadrant if they weren't more diplomatic.  Janeway made an alliance with the Borg AND, at a later date, Species 8472. If she'd just said, 'Screw you' and started firing, they would have been shredded cheese and the galaxy would have been in deeper peril.

Archer did manage to bring the Andorians and Tellarites together with the Vulcans, bringing forth the Federation.

On so many occasions, the captains were willing to compromise their own lives to maintain the integrity and philosophy of the Federation. Diplomacy is the way.

Also... simple point. Starfleet Command does look over mission logs. If they see that an alternative route than violence could have been taken but wasn't, they'll give a reprimand, suspension, demotion, or court martial.

"You're a Starfleet officer, so start acting like it!" - Sisko.