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Command Structure can you accept it?

Archrival

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POSTS: 222

Report this Mar. 24 2006, 4:16 am

It is clear with in the series of Star trek take which ever you want either TNG, or DS9 or what ever. It was clear there is a chain of Command. From Admiral in Starfleet down to Ensign.

Now we will be having our own ships (in time) with our own crews and teams working on the ships and the away team. An effective ship will be one that has effective team work and that means having leaders and having a Chain of command. Other wise the system breaks down. (Anyone in business knows this all to well)

Now come the time when we get in game there are going to be people who will spout out it's just a game and refuse to take orders cause they simply are the type of people that don't like taking orders and then there will be the younger gamers who simply haven't the experiance or learned to handle, leadership. ?I know I disccused having a prison of some sort before as a possible solution to "trouble makers" if you excuse the phrase.

However the question is will the majority of you be able to handle a Chain of Command. Would you be able to respect the person in the Captains chair with the captain pips who has earned his/her rank. Would you be able to handle taking orders (from someone who could be younger than you.)

[edited = I stand corrected Janway wasn't the first Captain shes offical the 4th. But was the first we had see in a role like Picard and Kirk etc]

I know most people will say they be ok with a female Captain to avoid being called sexist, however it can be ok to admit that your uncomfortable saying so doesn't mean your sexist it could mean you simply never experianced a female in charge so your uncomfortable your unsure of what they can do so your nurvous. I would be.

I know what i'm asking, asking you to respect someone requires trust and in a mmo where were we don't know anyone except what they tell you. ?Can or will a Chain of Command work if not can ST:O really work like the counter part it's trying to portray from the TV' series.

Ellessar

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POSTS: 1848

Report this Mar. 24 2006, 4:47 am

Quote
As Cpt.Janway was the first Female captain in starfleet, and I know feelings still run strongly could you handle a female Captain.


Where did you get that idea?  Janeway was not the first femal captain in StarFleet.  Did you forget the fact that Startrek is about equal opportunity and that females and males can achieve the same things.  Plus in the TNG episode "Conspiracy" we actually saw a female captain briefly; when Picard beamed down and met with Walker Keel and the two other StarFleet captains.  One of the other captains was a woman,  and if I am not mistaken Picard even said she was one of the youngest captains in Star Fleet history.


Now this idea of command and taking orders has been around for a long time.  The best answer I can give you to this question is: "Don't expect players to be giving and taking orders."  This is a game, not real life.  I have never seen an MMO in which players actually were expected to work in a command structure where they took and gave orders to and from other players.  Games just don't work like that.  There is very little reason in any game for one player to obey another.  You can have some shot at possibly doing this in a guild structure, but in the normal game you cannot expect random players to be listening to each other.  

You cannot punish players as a means of ensuring good order and discipline.  The moment you start to punish players is the moment you will see sub numbers start to nose dive.  The best you can do in a video game is encourage players to work together.  You cannot force them into a command structure, it doesn't work.  What possible reason would I or another have to listen to any one else?  Do you honestly think that rank in this game or any other will be an honest reflection of your ability to actually lead other people?  Probably not.  Rank, in most games, tends to just be one more thing to grind out.  You can try to give it some greater meaning that simply achieving XP, but you are limited in what you can do in a game.      

Leadership professions in MMOs do not equal commanders.  They equal coordinators and buffers.  For example in SWG the squad leader profession didn't command the squad of other players.  The profession was about buffing the squad and coordinating the players together as much as possible, while at the same time participating directly in the battle when they could.  Squad leaders didn't order people around.

If I am wrong here, show me an MMO or even any video game where players honestly were expected to take and give orders from other players.  Do you think in WoW that faction rank means players listen to each other?  If you do, you have never done a PUB battle ground.  Rank in WoW is about getting equiptment, that is all.  Rank in SWG faction was about being able to purchase factional items and factional perks.  It has been my experience in MMOs that players are not interested in being obedient to other players with the exception of a few rare occasions such as belonging to a guild.  Other than that players pretty much do what they want and they only listen to other players if they agree with what they are telling them.

Othic

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Report this Mar. 24 2006, 6:05 am

Just like to note they've also showed a few female Captains in the TOS Movies.

Just my 2 cents.

Archrival

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Report this Mar. 24 2006, 8:03 am

Quote (Ellessar @ Mar. 24 2006, 4:47 am)
Quote
As Cpt.Janway was the first Female captain in starfleet, and I know feelings still run strongly could you handle a female Captain.


Where did you get that idea? ¿Janeway was not the first femal captain in StarFleet. ¿Did you forget the fact that Startrek is about equal opportunity and that females and males can achieve the same things. ¿Plus in the TNG episode "Conspiracy" we actually saw a female captain briefly; when Picard beamed down and met with Walker Keel and the two other StarFleet captains. ¿One of the other captains was a woman, ¿and if I am not mistaken Picard even said she was one of the youngest captains in Star Fleet history.


Now this idea of command and taking orders has been around for a long time. ¿The best answer I can give you to this question is: "Don't expect players to be giving and taking orders." ¿This is a game, not real life. ¿I have never seen an MMO in which players actually were expected to work in a command structure where they took and gave orders to and from other players. ¿Games just don't work like that. ¿There is very little reason in any game for one player to obey another. ¿You can have some shot at possibly doing this in a guild structure, but in the normal game you cannot expect random players to be listening to each other. ¿

You cannot punish players as a means of ensuring good order and discipline. ¿The moment you start to punish players is the moment you will see sub numbers start to nose dive. ¿The best you can do in a video game is encourage players to work together. ¿You cannot force them into a command structure, it doesn't work. ¿What possible reason would I or another have to listen to any one else? ¿Do you honestly think that rank in this game or any other will be an honest reflection of your ability to actually lead other people? ¿Probably not. ¿Rank, in most games, tends to just be one more thing to grind out. ¿You can try to give it some greater meaning that simply achieving XP, but you are limited in what you can do in a game. ¿ ¿ ¿

Leadership professions in MMOs do not equal commanders. ¿They equal coordinators and buffers. ¿For example in SWG the squad leader profession didn't command the squad of other players. ¿The profession was about buffing the squad and coordinating the players together as much as possible, while at the same time participating directly in the battle when they could. ¿Squad leaders didn't order people around.

If I am wrong here, show me an MMO or even any video game where players honestly were expected to take and give orders from other players. ¿Do you think in WoW that faction rank means players listen to each other? ¿If you do, you have never done a PUB battle ground. ¿Rank in WoW is about getting equiptment, that is all. ¿Rank in SWG faction was about being able to purchase factional items and factional perks. ¿It has been my experience in MMOs that players are not interested in being obedient to other players with the exception of a few rare occasions such as belonging to a guild. ¿Other than that players pretty much do what they want and they only listen to other players if they agree with what they are telling them.

This is the classice case of people spouting out it's just a game crap.

but I stand corrected on the first female captain thing, I could of swarn I heard it in one of the documentaries about voyager but never mind. I will correct it.

now for ST:o you are gonna have! to work as team for most parts of the game and the running of the ships will mean you will have to listen to other peoples command.

Last time I posted about the prison Idea. Most people agreed to detain someone in their quaters or the prison for a limited time would ok. If your ship gets into a situation the last thing you want is some kid spouting our crap that its game and I don't have to do ####. While you having your argument the ship good be destroyed. So the majority at the time agreed to either remove you from the ship I.E the captain would transfer you to another ship.  After a certain time.

The motive to encourage you to carry out your orders will be if you continue to disobay you would end up serveing on a AI Ship cause no captain or anyone in the crew would want to serve with you. You be a risk.

People will want to play this game, well and to the best they can do. While others will Role play this down to the T. So they will expect you to follow the commands structure aboard the ship or you can get off the ship.

Your also wrong to think people can't force you comply ok in the end no one can force you to do anything but if you don't as I've already said you would find your self along. Or board a ship that doesn't do any credit to the Faction you belong to in this case star Fleet.

From memory I think what was agreed on the last thread about the prison is players would accept being Restricted to Quaters if you disobay a command to do something.  If the player refused then they would be put in the detention cell. You not doing your part for the team is your choice. However its the Choice of the team to let it effect them or not. I suspect many will just choose to put you aside until you had your little tamptrum.

rindill

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POSTS: 8

Report this Mar. 24 2006, 9:14 am

well the problem with this game is that the gamers are divided into 2 groups, the one with the regular mmo gamers who are going to get the best stuff, attain the highest rank, and kill the meanest space alien thingamajiggy, and these guys aren't going to have anyone else telling them what to do. and then there are the trekkies who simply would like to be part of a crew, be it as a captain giving out the orders or as an ensign who's trying to the best of his abilitu to follow those orders to the letter. it's as simple as that and there's a simple way to make sure you don't get in each other way
2 types of servers
1 for the trekkies who acctually care about star trek and want to be part of a team(crew)
and then 1 for the powerplayers
how 'bout that?

Philipp1980

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POSTS: 164

Report this Mar. 24 2006, 9:17 am

after the edit Janeway is supposed to be the fourth female captain in the federation? I dunno, I have a feeling I've seen more female admirals than that - who had to be captains at one point or another before becoming admirals.

that said: I guess it somehow depends on how that captain got his rank. I really don't give a damn if he's male, female, straight, gay, has a different skin color than me or whatever, as long as I can see he or she knows his stuff. If he or she knows what he'she is doing then I have absolutely no problem following those orders

CaptainWorfy

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POSTS: 425

Report this Mar. 24 2006, 9:42 am

I myself plan to be either a human male or a vulcan or andorian female.  No matter which I may be I still want people to call me sir and have respect for me.  Therefore it doesn't matter what "sex" i am as long as I am the captain I will be respected.

Ellessar

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POSTS: 1848

Report this Mar. 24 2006, 9:46 am

Quote (Archrival @ Mar. 24 2006, 8:03 am)
Last time I posted about the prison Idea. Most people agreed to detain someone in their quaters or the prison for a limited time would ok.

No I don't think most people agreed to anything. I remember the last time you poped this same question and I don't recall the support for your idea that you seem to think you had. Locking someone in their quarters or putting them in a cell or anything that is going to punish them is going to cause players to quit the game. It is that simple. Harsh penalties, even in death, are a thing of the past in the MMO world. People will not play a game in which they can be punished. What are you imagining here that you force a player to spend so many minutes or hours in a tiny detention cell before he can enjoy the game again because he failed to listen to his captain? Yeah I'm sure that will work just fine.

Never mind the fact that such a system would be extremely difficult to implement. How is the game going to tell if a person disobeyed orders or not? How do you imagine the system actually working? A captain puts his orders in the chat window or communicates them over ventrillo or teamspeak. How would the game know that a person refused an order? Even if the game could recognize orders somehow, how would the game tell the difference between a player simply missing an order in the heat of battle and out right disobeying? How could the game tell if a player simply lagged out and missed an order or because of lag couldn't carry out an order? How could the game tell if the player simply went to answer the phone and didn't carry out an order because he wasn't at the keys? There is no way the game system could be intuitive enough to recognize orders and to recognize when an order was willfully disobeyed.

The only other option then would be to put the punishment process in the hands of players. Do I even have to go into why that would be a horrendous idea?

No, punishment doesn't work. The best thing you could do would be to encourage cooperation among players. Most games do that very well and there is nothing wrong with that. But having people submit themselves to an actual command structure is simply not very likley.

Quote
No matter which I may be I still want people to call me sir


I hope that is joke, because if you think players will be calling each other sir and ma'am you are in for a huge shock. ¿That will simply never happen.

Xenesis

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POSTS: 1448

Report this Mar. 24 2006, 12:36 pm

One of the great things about these mmog's is the freedom and options they present to players, that includes the freedom to choose who you want to deal with in the game. There will certainly be players who will not follow orders of their superiors and will do their own thing, and hey their right to play that way, others will follow orders and they have the option not to deal with other players like that, and the option to seek out and join with others that have a similiar taste in playing.

No one should be forced into playing a certain way, not when any joe shmoe can attain the highest ranks in a game all with just more playing time. Forcing players into heavy restrictions in this game will kill the game. I know a lot of players want to play the Star Trek universe to a T, but just remember that this is a game first and foremost, there are many other positive ways PE could impliment to get people to follow orders rather than tossing them into the brink whenever they do something wrong, like earning bonus prestige or experience.

Personally I will try to follow all the orders of my superiors, but if I end up not liking the commander above me, or orders they're giving or the general direction they're leading the crew, then hey I'm sure I'll have the option to leave and find another ship.

Hausser

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Report this Mar. 24 2006, 4:41 pm

My comments

In SWG I ran a guild that was based upon Military structure and RPed with several others than ran on a strict military structure. We had a chain of command and people gave and followed orders as applied to the storylines and game play that we were involved in. We used sir on a regular basis and issued and followed commands. It was an accepted part of being in the guild and working within the ranks of the RP world that was built. I would have to say that the dedicated players who are going to play Star Trek for the pure enjoyment of Star Trek are ... well, should... be willing to accept that in a similar way.

I for one know that if I am on a ship ... and I will be playing for the basis of a Star Trek ... I will accept the command of an officer above me. I WILL use sir to any officer above me. That is how a military structure works. That is the experience I am looking for. If my Captain is an idiot or incompitenet... guess what.... that happens in real life as well. I will smile, say yes sir and do my duty. Just like a real life military situation... if it would place my life, the life of a shipmate, or the well being of our ship I will voice my opinion and my objection to the order. If they refuse to accept it I will still go about my duties. First chance I get I will try and transfer off that ship or star base and onto a different command.

The people that rise through the ranks and manage to achieve command will no doubt gain in reputation as well. That means the player base itself will begin to patrol it's captains and officers. Players that are known as good officers will rise to popularity and people will try to work with and for those people. People who are immature and poor in their command and decision making will soon find their commands dwindling. Those who abuse their positions will run themselves out of the game long before they are driven out by "confinement" to their quarters or a brig.

The other thing you must remember is that not everyone will be under order everytime they are in game. They will probably have duties they must do as assigned to their duty station. Butthe act of following orders will not be an every minute of every hour of every day occurance.

A command structure can work in this game.

NickSonik

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POSTS: 71

Report this Mar. 24 2006, 5:00 pm

The simple solution? Base required chain of command orders on game mechanics and the current situation.

Based on a current situation, the commanders can select certain ship systems and stations and task a tactical, repair, upgrade, or change in performance, or duty to a particular department or person in that department through a choice box like what you see in Star Trek: Bridge Commander.

At all times, a commanding officer can see the overall state of their department or the ship. If they see damage, they can select that damaged system and fix it themselves or task it to a qualified subordenant. This works out better since it's not open to griefing and checks-and-balances could be set up so that you're not constantly tasking one department or person with everything that they can not complete. Failure to complete the tasks can result in a repremand if the superior officer feels its neccessary. After so many repremands, the offending officer could lose gain experience, privelages to holodeck activities, or even domotion after repeat offenses.

Now, as far as your captain barking orders...that would be purely for Role Play. There'd be no way to enforce such orders, but a good crew would follow the orders since they would be correct. But enforcing what a person says in a game is just impossible and not good.

If you set up a command system like you see in Bridge Commander to task jobs out, you're on the right track.

Jopawl

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Report this Mar. 24 2006, 6:40 pm

This is why I really do think that they should have civilians/pirates in this game. Anyone who can't respect the chain of command doesn't belong in StarFleet. So for those people who are die hard loners I believe that being a civilian would be a great alternative way to playing this game. Sure the ships might be smaller but true power isn't for the undisciplined.
People who have trouble dealing with a female (or any other type of life form) for a Captain have learned nothing from watching the shows and should play a different game. There just isn't any room for you in this vision of the future.

ob1klone

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Report this Mar. 24 2006, 7:04 pm

The way I see it is this. If you are into RP, giving or taking orders will most likely be your thing. But everyone else will just be playing the game, and haveing fun with their friends. Now, if I am out adventureing with a bunch of non role players, I wouldn't and shouldn't expect those players to call me sir, and take my orders just because my character is a higher rank.

As for punishing players for"not obeying orders", get a life. This will never happen. If it did, and was anything but consentual by the player, people wouldn't be playing for long. The way I see it, taking and giving orders won't matter untill you get on a ship anyways. And with the anouncement that the captain will be piloting the ship, the need for giving orders on the ship is really kinda moot. PE is taking steps to avoid players needing to give orders to other players, outside of a RP situation. As evidensed by this whole thread, for good reason. People giving orders to people who just want to have fun playing a game, would get quikly annoyed by this type of behavior.

If you want a command structure, and you want to give and take orders, join a role playing guild and don't bother others who don't role play.

Ellessar

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POSTS: 1848

Report this Mar. 24 2006, 11:21 pm

Quote (Jopawl @ Mar. 24 2006, 6:40 pm)
This is why I really do think that they should have civilians/pirates in this game. Anyone who can't respect the chain of command doesn't belong in StarFleet. So for those people who are die hard loners I believe that being a civilian would be a great alternative way to playing this game. Sure the ships might be smaller but true power isn't for the undisciplined.
People who have trouble dealing with a female (or any other type of life form) for a Captain have learned nothing from watching the shows and should play a different game. There just isn't any room for you in this vision of the future.

It is not just civilians and pirates.  There will be large numbers of people will want to be a member of Star Fleet, but have no desire to roleplay what-so-ever.  There will be Star Fleet players who are simply there to have some fun alone or with some friends.  Who are you to decide who can and should be allowed to play as a Star Fleet officer?  Not everyone playing will be as serious about Star Trek as you.  Some many not even be fans of any show, they just want to play the next fun sci-fi MMO.  Even the Star Trek fans might not feel the same way as you.  I'm a huge Trek fan and I can assure you I will not be running around calling people sir and ma'am.    

If you want the experience what you saw on the show then you need to surrond yourself with roleplayers who feel the same way.  Respecting the chain of command, calling other players sir and ma'am, following orders, etc.  Not everyone is going to be up for that.  Expecting the general population of the game to behave the way you think they should will only lead you to be hugely dissapointed with the game.

STOCaptain01

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Report this Mar. 25 2006, 1:43 am

omg...i hardley come back here cause of the re-posting rofl.

Ok i didnt read everything but here it is....

Players WILL NOT follow commands unless RPing, which can be fun if not over excessive. Captains will be able to give missions to members of the crew, which in a way might be an order, but its optional so its not really an order. Now if someone is spouting ITS A GAME I DONT CARE U ****s, well first of all i dont know how this will effect how u win the battle cause u can kick him off the bridge, if hes like that he probably wont even have access to the bridge. Secondly, send in a harrassment report, like in SWG al u have to do is type /report with the person's name and it reports the last 10min of chat with that person. U can also /ignore name. Another tip might be..omg...shoving him out the air shaft.

About the air shaft thing, I think that would be a cool feature, letting captains shove ppl out the air lock....

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