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you should be able to "redline"

sukio

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 15

Report this Dec. 21 2005, 8:09 am

part if the essence of startrek is the ability to do what many call a "push" or redline"  and example of this is when  sulu was trying to get to kittimer to aid kirk against the cloaked klingon

with the deckplates shaking  the navagator said "she will fly apart"  sulu's respose was "fly her apart then!"

startrek is filled with many such  pushes  that is partly what made scotty a merical worker

I think you should add this element into the game this can be manifested in  speed, power, shields,  most commonly
certain endevers will modify this   such as defending a defenceless coliny would be much more likely to be prone to pushes  in the heroic attempt  

this should be something that the players dont directly percieve  otherwise it wouldnt be a redline
engines normally cruise at 7  and max at warp  8.8  but during a certain mission  a skilled  engineer under the right conditions pushed their ship to warp 9.2
this  can have drawbacks  if a ship is "redlined" all the time  it will become stressed  and is more prone to breakdown

the best time to "push"  is
(1) with a highly skilled engineer doing the push
(2) the ship is well maintained
(3) the situation is condusive to a push  a particular quest gives a push bonus for certain actions like getting to a diaster  or  defending a crippled coliny transport from supierior enemy forces

such examples are  laytai gulf WW2  when a group of destroyers and light carriers  held off a vastly supierior attacking force

ZedeX

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POSTS: 40

Report this Dec. 21 2005, 11:33 am

yeah this sounds like a good idea.  Commonly in Trek limits are given and more is always demanded.  They always manage to find 5 - 15% more power than they originally had, which usually saves the day :)

So I think it would really add to the game if this sort of function was added in, e.g. maybe an Engineer above a certain rank or over X amount of experience can boost power levels to certain systems by 5 / 10% or something like that

Tannagra

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 15354

Report this Dec. 21 2005, 12:24 pm

Quote (ZedeX @ Dec. 21 2005, 8:33 am)
yeah this sounds like a good idea. Commonly in Trek limits are given and more is always demanded. They always manage to find 5 - 15% more power than they originally had, which usually saves the day :)

So I think it would really add to the game if this sort of function was added in, e.g. maybe an Engineer above a certain rank or over X amount of experience can boost power levels to certain systems by 5 / 10% or something like that

Typically design engineers err on the side of caution..

The design limits have to be sustainable and cause no damage to the vessel or its systems. This causes the limits to be set probably 5-10% below theoretical maximums.

An engineer on active service aboard the starship can get a 'feel' for the ships systems and would eventually be able to tweak a few more % out of them.

The problem arises though when you start trying to draw more power or put systems under too much stress however. It doesnt matter how good an engineer you are once a system overloads too much something is going to give and usually big!

But its a good idea to have Chief Engineers be able to coax more power from systems.

ZedeX

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 40

Report this Dec. 21 2005, 1:02 pm

oh yeah I mean that wouldnt be a generic standard for all ships.  I mean just because an Engineer reaches a certain rank doesnt mean that he can just get extra power out of thin air.  The idea would be that an Engineer gets more familiar with the engine / ship they are working with, and can come up with additional ways of enhancing the ship beyond its specified limits, e.g. adding a specialised component, modifiying an existing component.  Again as different components wouldn't always work as well on some ships than others, the Engineer would try out different things until they learned what worked best

Tannagra

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POSTS: 15354

Report this Dec. 21 2005, 1:26 pm

Sounds good to me..

Make it so!

sukio

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POSTS: 15

Report this Dec. 21 2005, 3:06 pm

a good engineer  should be able to do both
he should be able to tweek an engine for peak regular proformance  such as aligning injectors tweeking the flow regulators
but also  be able to push above even this  mark at least for short bursts   he can do this  by sitting on the engines and manually holding open the flow regulators  and  sequencing the coolant manifolds to keep the engines from over heating.

in another space game we had a very exciting time when I had the fusion reactor in pieces on the floor  and it was imparative that we pursue  an escaping ship.
as the captin launched on normal drives  he asked how fast I could get the reactor online,  my responce was "with or without safty checks?!"   ultimatly I threw the reactor back together  and proformed a cold start that would either save the day  or blow the engine room into tiny sparkles
we didnt catch the ship  but were able to figure out where it went

Tannagra

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POSTS: 15354

Report this Dec. 21 2005, 4:39 pm

The thing is it doesnt matter HOW GOOD the engineer is, there comes a time when the reactor is at 100% and no matter what you do it will not give anymore. The other thing is when you are pushing something like that to the limit, if there is a problem you may only get a couple of seconds notice before there is a serious accident..

A good engineer knows how long to push and when to stop!

As Scotty was fond of saying "Ye canna change the laws of physics"

:)

Atani

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 191

Report this Dec. 21 2005, 6:13 pm

Quote (Tannagra @ Dec. 20 2005, 4:39 pm)
As Scotty was fond of saying "Ye canna change the laws of physics"

:)

of coarse you can, Q does this all the time =P

steve2001

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POSTS: 200

Report this Dec. 21 2005, 8:32 pm

I want 'Q" for my Chief of Engineering.  :)

my 0.02

Atani

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 191

Report this Dec. 21 2005, 9:39 pm

I want Q to steal me 2k crates of romulan ale ;)

STOCaptain01

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POSTS: 1369

Report this Dec. 21 2005, 10:21 pm

I want Q to make me all powerful emporer with hawtpants and then make him go away forever muahahahhahaha

SeanBlader

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POSTS: 62

Report this Dec. 21 2005, 11:15 pm

Maximum cruising velocity on a Galaxy class starship was warp 9.2, I think theoretical maximum speed was warp 9.65. They did 9.3 in the first episode of The Next Generation. I definately think you should be able to push it further and harder than the designers or engineers think it'll go.

GBJackson

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 299

Report this Dec. 21 2005, 11:23 pm

Why not do it like this... The stats on a ship's systems all display the maximum ratings in red, optimum in green, and the amount an engineer or a group of engineers together can coax out of the system in amber.

Occasionally, the amber range would meet the maximum, but one should never ever be able to truly exceed the maximum without first modifying the systems to be able to handle the load.

And modifying crucial systems so that they can exceed the maximum limit should run an increasing risk of causing critical damage to the system which could leave a ship essentially dead in space.

I think that an engineer's PUSH rating should be based on a few things like how long he/she has been an engineer on that class of starhip, how long he's been an engineer period, and past history of successful pushes adding in a confidence bonus.

Now if you are someone like Scotty, who had served aboard the Enterprise PRIME all those years, and then tried to pull the same thing with the Enterprise-A, there would be issues. Look at all the crap Scotty had to deal with to work the bugs out of the Ent-A's systems.

"'Let's se what she's got,' said the captain. And then we found out, didn't we?"

"I think this new ship was put together by monkeys! Oh, she's got a fine engine, but half the doors won't open. And guess whose job it is to make it right?"

Now imagine if Scotty tried to do a PUSH with the ship in the state it was then... He had been a chief engineer for over twenty years at that point, but he had all sorts of problems sorting out issues with simple systems. Why? They were new, and untried, and he practically had to overhaul everything to bring it up to standard. Even is Star Trek VI, he was seen reading the design schematics, no doubt planning his next optimization cycle on the ship's systems...

STOCaptain01

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POSTS: 1369

Report this Dec. 21 2005, 11:36 pm

Ok i think ill budge into this. A while ago I had the idea of department heads (or commander and capts) being able to upgrade or purchase better equipment for the ship. what I mean by upgrade is boost performance. Examples might be:

Chief of Engineering, upgrades engine energy use. Chief of Security upgrades the DX-5A (just an example) rifles to fire faster. The Medical Chief upgrades the basic healing equipment (or treatment equipment) so it does some better treatment output.

Anyways, you get what im saying? They wouldnt be drastic upgrades, only minor ones and there could be a limit, but it would depend on their skill. The Security Chief might need Torpedoes VI to increase the homing capabilites on the quantum torpedoes, unfortunatly he only has Torpedoes III. However one of the engineering crew has Torpedoes VI, so he gives that engineer a mission to upgrade the homing capability. That engineer gets prestige, and the Chief gets less prestige, but its still better than nothing.

Now, the Captain can purchase better equipment for the ship using Ship Prestige. (prestige earned from missions the whole ship undertakes, or from events it took place in). It might be better warp engines, or better phasers, like he might purchase two Phaser XI, to replace two Phaser X.

Anyways, I think a lot of people have hinted at the concept. This is just my interpertation of it. What do you think?

DougQB

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POSTS: 236

Report this Dec. 22 2005, 12:15 am

Quote (sukio @ Dec. 21 2005, 5:09 am)
. . . such examples are  laytai gulf WW2  when a group of destroyers and light carriers  held off a vastly supierior attacking force

heh, scared off is probably a wee bit more accurate.

Yeah, I like the concept of being able to push a system beyond the rated design.  Which isn't the same thing as saying the characters should be able to upgrade systems beyond the initial design.

I did something similar as a GM playing AD&D.  I didn't want the players stuck going strictly by the book.  What fun is that?  Just because you're only "x" level doesn't mean you can't cast a level "z" spell.  But it says in the book . . .  I don't like to feel boxed in as a GM, or as a player.  If the spell is close in level and you have the skill, give it a try!  What do you have to lose, perhaps in a desperate situation it might just pay off.

Granted, there typically were consequences to be paid for doing such things, but it were worth it.  That makes for the heroic event/action.  This shouldn't be something the players immediately leap to do every chance they get, but only done in dire circumstances to overcome an incredible challenge.

So push the engines past the redline longer than you're suppose to.  So what if the engines break down if you succeed in a critical mission, right?   :)   OK, so its a long way back to the nearest starbase, but who knows what might happen between here and there?

My only concern with pushing systems beyond their ratings and upgrades that improve ship systems beyond the specs, is the impact this often has on the game mechanics.  Will everyone feel they have to do the same with their ship too?  How difficult or easy will this make the game play for different ships?  Granted, I like to think they will all still be viable to play, but that usually isn't good enough for the players who usually want to have the best.

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