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Crafting = no

68th

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 527

Report this Nov. 12 2005, 7:25 pm

I've just been reading the forums on Perpetuals other mmo, I've forgotten what is called already, that magical thing

Anyway I found some good threads about crafting...the following paragraph is a quote, I just dunno how to work this site properly lol...

[/QUOTE=Danjak]'I hope to God there's no crafting.  Or if there is, that it's implemented as crafting-lite.  I just don't think crafting ever works right in MMORPG's.  It's always a grind, it destroys the economy, and it's boring.  I just don't get why you have to churn out a thousand bits of metal in order to make a dagger.  Maybe the way to do it is to have NPC's as the master crafters, with their stuff at the top of the food chain (in terms of quality and price), then crafters' wares, then loot.  That way, there's not the pressure to reward grinding, but crafter's still can make useful stuff.  And, there's the added benefit that the money sink is in the NPC's, not other players. I just got back into SWG, the game that absolutely soured me on crafting.  That game was created with crafting at its heart, everything else second (followed by "Star Wars" immersion as a distant third).  That game is more like a Tale in the Desert than it is any other Star Wars game.  And I can't stand how crafters are the billionaires of the game.  ugh.'



I pretty much agreed with everything said. I don't wanna see a million crafters take over the world of Star Trek. It would just turn into one big treasure hunt at the end of the day, like most other mmorpgs. In my eyes, crafting is a cheap and easy way to keep loads of gamers happy without them realising that what they're doing completely detracts from the story of the actual game they bought. (Clever devs) I'm going to be pi#### if I have to go looking for objects 24/7 to make an item before I can level, (go up in rank). There should be limited crafting, but dont let it become the backbone of the game.

So please please Perpetual, I know some people love to treasure hunt but don't make it absolutely necessary for players like myself to have to do it before we can progress.

:sarcastic:

Ellessar

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POSTS: 1848

Report this Nov. 12 2005, 8:33 pm

Quote (68th @ Nov. 12 2005, 4:25 pm)
I pretty much agreed with everything said. I don't wanna see a million crafters take over the world of Star Trek. It would just turn into one big treasure hunt at the end of the day, like most other mmorpgs. In my eyes, crafting is a cheap and easy way to keep loads of gamers happy without them realising that what they're doing completely detracts from the story of the actual game they bought. (Clever devs) I'm going to be pi#### if I have to go looking for objects 24/7 to make an item before I can level, (go up in rank). There should be limited crafting, but dont let it become the backbone of the game.

So please please Perpetual, I know some people love to treasure hunt but don't make it absolutely necessary for players like myself to have to do it before we can progress.

:sarcastic:

[QUOTE]

Ah I'm going to disagree with pretty much everything Danjak said. Just because he doesn't like to craft doesn't mean others don't love it.

Now in terms of the game turning into a treasure hunt. Well that is exactly what happens when there is no economy and no crafting. If you have to loot your weapons and loot your armor then the game by definition become a treasure hunt. You farm, mule, and camp all day and night to get the best loot. If on the other hand you have crafters and they make stuff people actually would want to use then there is far less treasure hunting as you put it.

A perfect example of this is Guild Wars. There is no real crafting in the game, hence a large part of the game is loot farming. In the early days of GW you would have groups just hang out and endlessly farm things like Lightning Drakes, looking for their flame swords and uber shields and looking to pick up things they can salvage into pommels, and bow strings, steel ignots, etc.

SWG on the other hand. While there is a good deal of loot farming there is far less than most MMOs. You don't go out and loot farm to get armor or components to get armor. You go to weaponsmiths to buy weapons. You buy components for your ships from Shipwrights and you sure as hell never use a looted component without first bringing it to a Shipwright to reverse engineer. Crafters are an intergrated part of the economy and it makes for a more realistic and complex game.

STO will suffer without crafting and without an economy. I don't care whether you want to see those things or not. The very successful games intergrate crafting and have working economies.

And on a side note crafters are not the billionares of SWG. That is a myth. That may have once been semi-true long ago, but not really. Yeah crafters have money, but in reality a solo crafter will haev a hard time getting rich. A single crafter will have a hard time gathering enough resources, having enough factories, and having enough storage to self-supply. There simply aren't enough lots. To be a successful crafter you need a guild behind you. Now in terms of who the billionares are. Well those are the folks that sell the uber loot. The people who in the before times farmed the holos. The people who got the Nightsister armbands. The people who had the suits of RIS (pre-CU). The people who get a jetpack made. The people who assemble BH and mando armor. Etc. If anything SWG has become more like the Treasure hunt games of late and as a result the power loot farmers are the ones with the real cash.

68th

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POSTS: 527

Report this Nov. 12 2005, 8:49 pm

Quote (Ellessar @ Nov. 12 2005, 5:33 pm)
Now in terms of the game turning into a treasure hunt.  Well that is exactly what happens when there is no economy and no crafting.  If you have to loot your weapons and loot your armor then the game by definition become a treasure hunt.  You farm, mule, and camp all day and night to get the best loot.  If on the other hand you have crafters and they make stuff people actually would want to use then there is far less treasure hunting as you put it.  

But everything you explained just 'isnt' Star Trek. The closest thing to a crafter in Star Fleet is an engineer. Looting, hunting for objects (TREASURE HUNTING) is simply NOT Star Trek. Neither is having an economy which inevitably takes over the game. Maybe you should be able to craft for a phew specialist things, but thats about it. I dont wanna hear every 5 seconds 'hey, do you have a dual flux inhibitor, I'll give you 3 power cells for it', I'd probably shoot them if I could. The story and purpose to the game gets completely lost.

EDIT - What possibly could a Star Fleet officer want to buy/trade/craft/hunt for. Maybe a piece of furniture or a collectable item (like that baseball card for Cisco) but thats it. Everything else is either replicated or provided for by Star Fleet.

Aiten

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POSTS: 1040

Report this Nov. 12 2005, 9:54 pm

It is also true that a commanding officer in Star Trek cannot take more phaser hits than an ensign as well.  ST:O must be adapted to use both Trek and MMO theories.

Crafting in my opinion is a must, at least we can have human interaction this way, rather than loot.  
The only other possibility would be for everything to be handed to us on a plate by a replicator.  The only issue with that is ... where is the fun and pride?

steve2001

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POSTS: 200

Report this Nov. 12 2005, 9:57 pm

Perhaps the standard 'plain vanilla' eqiupment is replicated on demand for anyone.  An Engineer chould be able to tweak stuff (using a series of trade-offs) to make 1-off custom gear.  This would make for some non-grind interesting crafting that does not destroy the Trek immersion.

Ellessar

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POSTS: 1848

Report this Nov. 12 2005, 10:48 pm

Quote (steve2001 @ Nov. 12 2005, 6:57 pm)
Perhaps the standard 'plain vanilla' eqiupment is replicated on demand for anyone.  An Engineer chould be able to tweak stuff (using a series of trade-offs) to make 1-off custom gear.  This would make for some non-grind interesting crafting that does not destroy the Trek immersion.

[QUOTE]

You see this boggles my mind. How is tweaking a game created item and different than crafting it in the first place? There is zero difference. The problem that people who don't like crafting in most games is the grind. Your suggestion does not remove the grind. It is simply a different kind of crafting.

With your system people could just as easily have to practice tweaking stuff to gain XP to get better. How is that different than crafting stuff to earn XP to get better? If the grind is the problem then change it or remove it.

What you are talking about is a common feature in SWG. Smugglers do it and it is called slicing. Shipwrights do it and it is called Reverse engineering. Getting good at slicing, (pre-CU) was just as tedious as getting good at crafting.


I stand firm in my belief that crafting is a must. An economy is aslo a must. Remove those elements and the gaem will suffer. You will not attract the MMO crowd, and those that do come will not stay as long as they might have. You need to be very careful that you don't wish your way into a one dimensional do missions for starfleet multiplayer game. They already have a game like that. Its called City of Heroes. Take mission, go to location, kill bad guys, kill boss, repeat. There needs to be much more to the game than missions. Crating and economy add depth and dimension to the game.

And as I said above.  If you don't want to see a "treasure Hunt" game as the oringinal poster put it.  Then you need an economy and you need crafting.  Games without those two things turn exculsivly into treasure hunts because what other way is there to obtain equiptment?

STOCaptain01

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POSTS: 1369

Report this Nov. 13 2005, 1:01 am

I also must agree with others for the existence of crafting. It is a must for continuity of community immersion. It enables players to interact by telling eachother what can trade, craft, buy, etc. I think Engineers should be the crafters, the ablity to tweak and craft items. The ship has its Default items. But the engineer can either craft a new design to become the ships default or tweak the existing one. Of course he can also craft other types of items which he can make profit from. Engineers wouldnt really get a majority of their experience from crafting non-regular items. ONly ship-use items, and of course missions. Ship-use items include: Personal-weapoons, Ship-weapons, datapads, shield enhancements, etc...

Aiten

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POSTS: 1040

Report this Nov. 13 2005, 2:50 am

Well, how about

Engineers = Craft everything except below
Tactical = Craft Weapons
Medical = Craft Medical equipment
Command = Craft Science eqiupment

steve2001

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POSTS: 200

Report this Nov. 13 2005, 3:04 am

I myself am not a crafter, that style of gameplay does not overly appeal to me as my primary activity. I do believe in crafting in STO, and in MMOs in general. I believe that is is an integral part of any integrated online community experience. Just how the crafting should be constructed is somewhat beyond the core of my experience. I hope that crafting is done well and comprehensively though. I like to read the ideas of those of you who craft, and I hope that PE impliments some of your ideas.

I think that we will need a resource gathering set of activities, a crafting set of activities, and the service set of activities. I am more of a services type of guy. I also enjoy resource gathering (mining, hunting or whatever). The 'service' class/es are the morst common in MMOs: combat, healing, reconnoiter, sabotage, etc. These classes are supported by other classes like crafting, who in turn are supported by resource gathering (often integrated into a crafting class), and these gatherers often need service support (often combat) to do their jobs. This makes a self supporting cycle.

I think that this is critical for the long term health of an MMO. A good societal cycle, which is cointegrated with the economic cycle is what will keep the world turning so to speak. I hope that PE does this well.

STOCaptain01

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POSTS: 1369

Report this Nov. 13 2005, 11:51 am

In this case it will keep the galaxy goin round and round.

68th

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POSTS: 527

Report this Nov. 13 2005, 12:39 pm

No no no...
This is a Star Trek game, not some magical bs where the economy rules over all other. Like it or not, everytime a major crafting/economy is introduced, it takes over the game. Star Trek immersion is non existant. If you want to craft and become a salesman then you have a million other mmorpgs to choose from. Have you seen Star Trek? I can understand including those features if we were Ferengi, but we're not!
Story and immersion should be at the heart of this game, but if an economy is, then everyone is going to be searching for that power cell or dilithium crystal they need to trade for a new personal shield....then you get loads of messages asking for a trade of this and that item. Dont say it wont be like that, because it inevitably will.

ENGINEERS should be the only people who craft stuff, since that is closey related to what they did in Star Trek. Tactical officers (like myself) shouldnt be able to craft anything, since that is'nt their job. New weapons and equipment should be avaiable to me if I go up in rank, but this new equipment should be provided by Star Fleet/replicated. Maybe if I want to tweak a phaser rifle to be more affective, I can go to an engineer to do it for me. I should not have to partipate in treasure hunting, crafting, buying or selling to progress my character.

Story, in depth missions and Star Trek imersion is enough to keep people playing. In my experience in MXO,it was the essential need on a working economy that turned people away, they just couldnt be bothered with it. The matrix story was completely lost...

Norweyoun

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POSTS: 1107

Report this Nov. 13 2005, 4:29 pm

craft?

STOCaptain01

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Report this Nov. 13 2005, 4:42 pm

Ok 68th ur second paragraph just fizzled with the first lol. Craft by the way means to create an item; Kawagner

Ok back to the subject. Crafting will not take over the economy. How will it? It doesnt in any other game ive seen. Crafting and Combat are two COMPLETELY different things. Ill say it again. Your ship will have a default personal weapon, your skill change sits effectiveness for you. BUT, if an engineer were to perhaps tweak it or craft a new weapon for the Default then that would benefit the ship even more and he would get a majority of his craftign xp from that.

Example:

Lets say the ship's default personal rifle does 60-100 damage, speed .7 burst, speed .9 phaser. Your character's skill makes the weapon, 72-112 dam, speed .6 burst, speed .8 phaser. Now an engineer tries to tweak the rifle, he succesfully does so. Now its 70-110, .6, .8. So now to YOU its 82-122, .5,.7

Each time its succesfully tweaked the harder it is to tweak. Of course a ship can always pick up a new rifle type at Starbases if they are better than the ship's default.

Norweyoun

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POSTS: 1107

Report this Nov. 13 2005, 4:45 pm

Quote (STOCaptain01 @ Nov. 13 2005, 4:42 pm)
Craft by the way means to create an item; Kawagner

thanks, I sorta had an idea but was not completely sure.

Now that I am. Why should we create things in the game. Maybe the engineers, but not all the other people.

Aiten

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 1040

Report this Nov. 13 2005, 7:08 pm

Trade does exist in Star trek, its been shown on more than one occasion in almost all series.They only thing that the federation does not have is money since all basics are provided (although we have also seen federation people buy drinks at quarks, and gamble in TNG - so people do have personal wealth).

The question is, do we craft or do we loot.  If we loot, then lets scrap all professions minus tactical and have done with it. Lets turn ST:O into a glorifed persistant co-op shooter.

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