Star Trek

Quote (01mareva @ Dec. 17 2005, 1:27 am)

Quote (munky99999 @ Dec. 17 2005, 1:23 am) Quote thing is. if you take 3D away from the newbs. it makes flight control alot easier. and as ship-ship and helms position will be rpg-skill based. whats the point of having all the buttons there and ready for you Why does that make it easier? Most people would be able to master bridge commander in a few minutes. As for acually being good that would take more practice - but being reasonable would comequickly. RPG helm? What... I don't want to fly a ship by pressing the picard manuvre button and the ship does it all on its own-with a probability of failure depending on how many hours I have spent improving my skill! I want to set up the warp system for an X millisecond flight and hope I've judged the time right!

Agreed. I want to be able to make up my own maneuvers not use cut and dried abilities. If they need to give helmsmen something to work for it should be the abilities to control different kinds of ships. For instance you would need a higher clearance to fly a Defiant than a Constellation. I'm all for in-depth realistic helm control. It might have a steep learning curve but it will be very rewarding to master it.

If I ever took the helm I'd wanna use a joystick or mouse to 'maneuver' (for combat situations). It's easy and fun to use. Every ship class should handle differently like in the series. I read a lot of comments like space combat in Star Trek isnt like dogfighting...well it really is in the later series. Although ships like the galaxy class were slower to maneuver, they could still move fast in any direction if they needed.

EDIT - oh and of course it should be complete 3d

Relax everyone. What munky99999 is talking about it NOT TRUE.

STO will have 3D graphics but combat will only be limited to 2D navigation ... right left forward back just like the Starfleet Command series of games.

As the helms gains more experience he will not, all of a sudden, be able to start moving along the Y axis (up and down in a 360' plane). The devs have clearly stated that he will ONLY be able to access what they call "out of plane maneuvers". They are selectable options that make the ship do some kind of lame series of movements (to dodge weapons?).

No one has spent more time analyzing the dev blog, random dev interviews (on multi-lingual sites) and the STO Wiki so don't even try to start telling me I'm wrong. I wish I was tho cuz their plan with regards to combat movement is a total shortcut.

munky99999, how could you have not seen any of my posts? I'm the one that started this thread! You, by your own admission, haven't even read the FIRST post in this thread. Go back and read it all or don't post! It's fine to have a different opinion as long as you have an INFORMED one, which you obviously don't.

I agree that munky99999 is talking like his thoughts are facts.
Maybe becasue he just can't cope with the idea that STO won't have 3D movment if the development consinues in this way.

As for the situation to date.
We can with certainty tel from the dev blogs and dev post till now that:

1. We will see a full 3D representation of our ships
The ships will be in full 3D not an 2d icons and such crap

2. The space fights will ocure in 2D
we will be able to move our 3D ships only left, right, back and forth
This means we will still see all in spectacular 3D graphics but will be blocked from going up or down.

3. The game will let some out of plane maneuvers
This means that we will be able to press a button en make a pas over the nemy ship, make a looping  and similar maneuvers,
but this will still be just an eecution of a maneuver (presing on a button) and not our piloting.


If any of this is wrong I strongly encourage any of the PE devs to clarify the situation about space combat.

Sory for the repost I got an error and thought that the post wasn't sent.

You guys are so obtuse. You keep saying that munky99999 has no facts to base his opinions on. that is not true, he is basing his opinion on the words of the Devs. .he has quoted the devs and made opions based on those quotes. I am not saying that it is set in stone and that he is right or that you are right. Well, you are false and are assuming that it will be intirely in 2d movent. that is baseless. munky99999 has already disproved you that there will be no 3d movement. it is like talking to a brickwall.

Noone seems to want to read my post page 11.

Star Trek is not about war and fighting. the game is not going to be based on or focus on this. If you dont want to play a dumbed down profession dont. you have other choices in profs. I for one am just happy they are making a game like this and to assume sooooo much sooooo early in the games development is wrong. They are just letting you know of their ideas and the coarse they would LIKE to go with it. nothing is set in stone.

ElevenThirtyOne, it is ok to have your opinion but you are sooo set in your thoughts, soooo closed minded. you are not hearing what people are saying. You are sooo mad that they are making Starship combat the way they want to. There is a reason and it has been said here aswell as in the dev logs, THIS GAME WILL NOT FOCUS ON STARSHIP COMBAT!!  IT IS NOT THE MAIN MODE OF PLAY!!! THEY ARE NOT MAKING A SIMULATOR!!!

Can you hear me? are you even listening? i dought it. Please read my post on the previous page.

Just wanted to jump in and say, wtf is this, 1992? We have had 3D for quite sometime now. SWG didnt even spend alot of time on their space stuff and it sounds like its going to kick the hell out of this game.

Braxus6352
Then enlighten me again where did the devs say the game will be 3D. The only statment that can't be misunderstood is that the space combat will base on 2D with out of plane maneuvers. And this statment more than clearly says that it is 2D. There is only a small hint of 3D as the 3D part is based on special abilitities giving you the posibility to make a brief jump ot of a 2D plane. Or are you seating on your eyes.

munky99999 didn't prove his statement he was just wilde gueasing at what out of plane maneuvers means.

And finaly yes I do agree that ST is not about fighting and if you were in these bord as much as i have you would now that I would like a lot of diplomacy, learnig, exploration and socialisation in the game.
I am not asking for a simulator I am asking for somthing that we have seen in a lot of different games for more then 10 years.

I have played a lot of space comabt games, ranging from twitch based games like wingcommander and up to strategical/tactical like Nexus: The jupiter incident. I have played privateer (2d with simulation of 3d), privateer2 (full 3D), freelancer, wincommander 3,4,5(prophecy and black ops), bridge commander, Nexus,...

And would like to see just like this games are a dumbed down version not a simulator like elite allmost was (I liked the game but wouldn't fit with the STO mmog style, but could be an interestin mmog if based on the elit franchise). And if you ever tryed any real fligh simulator you would probably understand that this game has little in comon with simulators.

So here I want a nice 3D system with witch I can fly a ship but that is far from being a simulator. A 2D system would in the end probably boil down to mainly ships circling each other. And if the 3D maneuvers would change that the game would get quite status layered as no one would want a low lvl helmsmen that can't make even a 3D maneuver. That's a thing that would in the end kill the game as it will be imposible to join an old server as a new player.

I won't bother arguing either with munky or Braxus... Magecu has covered all of the points perfectly.

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munky99999 didn't prove his statement he was just wilde gueasing at what out of plane maneuvers means.

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The only statment that can't be misunderstood is that the space combat will base on 2D with out of plane maneuvers. And this statment more than clearly says that it is 2D.

munky, Braxus and everyone else that thinks STO will have 3D combat movement - pull your head out of the sand. The Devs aren't planning on implementing it... which is why all us pro-3Ders are so passionate about this issue. You guys can't cope with the truth so your pretending its not happening. It is and it sux. PE is cutting major corners with this game. STO is likely to go the way of SWG and every other ST computer game ... in the trash. For PE this will likely sink their newly found company since they paid in order of $10M for the ST licence.

Yes..when the devs say 2d what they mean is all the ships will be of the same orientation, that is the same way up in space.

You will still be able to move in 3 dimensions.

I cant understant why people would argue that they want combat where the one ship is vertical and the other is horizontal and upside down.

The mind boggles!

Quote (ElevenThirtyOne @ Dec. 17 2005, 1:19 pm)

munky, Braxus and everyone else that thinks STO will have 3D combat movement - pull your head out of the sand. The Devs aren't planning on implementing it... which is why all us pro-3Ders are so passionate about this issue. You guys can't cope with the truth so your pretending its not happening. It is and it sux. PE is cutting major corners with this game. STO is likely to go the way of SWG and every other ST computer game ... in the trash. For PE this will likely sink their newly found company since they paid in order of $10M for the ST licence.

Again man you prove that you are not listening or reading. I did not say i think the game will be entirely 3D. I said that it will be partially. I never said or believe that the game will be 3D.

I did not say the munky is 100% correct. i said that he has the right idea and that it is his interpritation of the devs logs. i am saying that we can all be wrong in that. The game has not been made yet. nothing is set in stone.

If you read my long post on page 11 you would know where i am comming from. I am hoping for a 2d space combat but 3d navigation. I dought it will happen but that is my hope.

You prove that you did not read my post with an open mind or clear thoughts, just your narrow view and opinion.

I am done with this topic. it is like trying to have an inteligent debate with a tree

Quote (Tannagra @ Dec. 17 2005, 10:28 am)

Yes..when the devs say 2d what they mean is all the ships will be of the same orientation, that is the same way up in space. You will still be able to move in 3 dimensions. I cant understant why people would argue that they want combat where the one ship is vertical and the other is horizontal and upside down. The mind boggles!

You will only be able to move on a 2D plane (left / right). You will NOT be able to move in 3D (up / down).

Why can't you understand "why people would argue that they want combat where the one ship is vertical and the other is horizontal and upside down." ??

Look at any space combat game from the past 10 years ... they all feature 3D where ships can attack other ships on any vector as in actual space.

Watch any episode of Star Trek (last 3 years of TNG, DS9, Voya, Ent, movie) you'll see ships moving in, around and over other ships in combat.

ElevenThirtyOne- to use your favorite line, when did you start working for Perpetual? For someone telling everyone how things are or aren't, you sure assume to know a lot. The devblog says that people that are experienced enough pilots can move out of the 2d plane, can you not accept that? Though I guess yours is the one and only explanation of the facts and ignorance is bliss yeah?

Quote (Braxus6352 @ Dec. 17 2005, 4:27 am)

munky99999 you are right on the money. I would like to make my ship go and do anything my hearts content. 3D flying would be cool. People who are for full all out 3d flying are allways saying that the DS9 and Voyager episodes  prove that ST battles are fought on the 3d plane. some one even attached a pic of the fed fleet with ships above and below the Defiant. Now that is partially true. the ships are always headed for the other ships though. example.. Enemyships         Top             Allied Ships      ---                                ---  --                                    -----    ----              Bottom         -- though they are on different levels they are headed in the same direction. 2D. The only time i saw a ship attack a horizontal ship from a full 90 degrees from it virticaly was when the Enterprise D (future) attacked the klingon Negvar ships with its phaser cannon. all the other times in the show the ships started out in 3d but moved to 2d. The episode of DS9 when the Defiant was attacked by the USS Lakota comes to mind. it came in on an off angle  and leveled itself to meet the Lokota's. then attacked it. durring the attack the defiant was able to attack just the top portion of the lacota in a manuver. whos to say that that kind of manuver will not be able to happen. Some say it is oversimplified and makes the helmsman unappealing. those same people say that id having 3d flight is so hard do anouther profession. I say the same but in reverse. if you think helmsman will be to boring, dont do it. there are other profs to play. now before everyone yells at me. rember that there will not be any PVP in the game except in the holodeck. so  it will not be so hard to out think and out manuver the AI controlled ship that is attacking you. Everyone forgets the dream of Gene. Star Trek is not about War or fighting. it is about cooperation and peace. The Federation personifies thses ideals. The federation will never strike first. always looking for a diplomatic salution. Star Fleet is not a War Fleet. It primary mission is Exploration and science. Improving the human race and increasing our knowlage of the galaxy. Encuraging unity with other races and peoples. not war not death. This game should not focus on Starship combat, nor should it be overlooked. I play Star Wars Galaxies. I did not buy it right away because i did not want to be any of the origionally offered professions. I wanted to fly and live on my personal ship or fighter. that was not offered at the time. I did however buy the game when the expansion pack Jump to lightspeed came out. my dreams of piloting a fighter and owning my own ship was realized. the fighter combat in SWG is great and very fun. i spent alot of my time leveling up my character so i can get ace and command a multiperson ship. I dreamed of living on the ship and never landing unless i needed something, having a crew man it and we would all live happily ever after blowing away lots of fighters in my heavilly armed ship. that dream was not realized however. My ship turned like crap and my gunners had a hard time keeping their individual targets locked. when i turned my ship or made a dive they were disoriented and could not keep there fire focused on the target. the only time it was easy was when i kept the ship moving in a straight line  or had them only fire in front of the ship and i kept the enimy in front of me. problem with that is that my ship is not a fighter and i was always out manuvered. Coordinating the fighting was also a BIG problem. i lost interest in it very quickly. now i only use my fighter in space. Having a starship fight in full 3D may sound cool at first but it quicly losses interest with a ship of their size. i would like to have the opertunity to try it but i dought that it will enhance the whole game to do so. Starship combat is not the focus of this game. if it is the only reason you want the game then dont get it. I was VERY disapointed with Galaxies once i was able to fly a Starship with crew support. I would like full 3d nav when exploring but not in combat. I am a licened pilot and a fighter pilot wannabe but if ship combat is 2d i will still be a helmsman even if it is boring and i am just using my right and left arrow keys. I am for exploration and science as the focus of this game. I want to be a famed starfleet engineer that can turn a rock into a replicator. I want to be able to negotiate treates with new species. Chart an unexplored sector of space. Make new tech to combat an infectius desase. Host a delegation from a world pititioning entrance into the Federation. Repair a damaged conduit. command an away team looking for ancient artifacts from a long dead civilization. Visit the messhall on my ship. Those are the reasons to play this game not just to kill aliens in your powerfully superior ship. (Though i would like to do that on occation     ) Those are the ideals of the Federation. wait till they make the Klingons a playable faction before you make combat your priority.

that is a quote from my first post on this subject. in response to you saying watch the episodes and it will prove your point comment.

pay close attention to my rant on that subject at the top with the example.

the manuvers they might give you in the game MIGHT alow you to do those ships moving in, around and over other ships in combat. but they are still horizontally oriented to the enemy ship. now before you yell by saying "what are you basing those lies on?" you should rember that i said "MIGHT" it is not fact nor is it fiction. we can not be 100% sure of anything at this stage.

would you want some dumb 12 year old who cant fly accientally ramming your ship cuz he was doing loop d loops around you for fun?

Quote (Maziwrath @ Dec. 17 2005, 11:21 am)

For someone telling everyone how things are or aren't, you sure assume to know a lot. The devblog says that people that are experienced enough pilots can move out of the 2d plane, can you not accept that? Though I guess yours is the one and only explanation of the facts and ignorance is bliss yeah?

I know alot cuz I've read it all - every post. So until you have as well STFU.

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The devblog says that people that are experienced enough pilots can move out of the 2d plane, can you not accept that?

And the Dev blog also goes on to say that pilots will use "out of plane maneuvers" to move out of the 2D plane. Not 360' free movement on the Y axis.