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Devs: Space Combat Dev Blog = horrible news

ElevenThirtyOne

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 77

Report this Oct. 26 2005, 3:20 pm

From another thread yet still relevant:

First off... I'd like to add my voice to the chorus: That I don't like the info that was posted on the latest Dev Blog one bit.

It's ironic that they posted this dev blog to "clarify" the issue when in fact it didn't clarify anything - it just restated what we all feared would become official.

I can't state enough my disaproval and general dissapointment with this decision. Honestly, many of us, some 87.65% of this forum community (based on a poll that was conducted) vote in favor of 3D movement and TRUE 3D combat and not only did they not listen to us they did the exact opposite.

Now, let's talk about some of the statements made in the latest Dev Blog:
Quote
When many people hear "2D" they think of sprites or other antiquated technology, and that isn't what we're talking about here.

Uhm, no we aren't thinking about sprites. What is this the early 90s? No one is under the impression that 2D meant sprites or the like.

What we are really talking about here is 2D combat movement of the 3D ship models. What's so ironic is that he refers to 2D sprites and antiquated technology - 2D combat movement (as we refer to it) is was is truely antiquated!

Quote
Actually, we're modeling exactly what we see in the shows.

Ok, how about what we've heard? Everytime a direction is given to a helmsmen its (set of #s)MARK(more #s). Where the numbers after the mark are direction degrees on the vertical axis. The point here is that it is IMPLIED. Space is fully 3D!

Quote
Most of the time, the ship is shown in a 2D plane, facing off against other enemies in roughly the same 2D plane.

This is for dramatic effect and linear visuals to fit a TV.

Quote
Also, keep in mind that oftentimes a crew of players is going to be working together to control their vessel, not just one player, so we want the entire crew to have exciting and interesting things to do.

Limiting the helmsmen's control doesn't equate to "the entire crew having exciting and interesting things to do".

Quote
The entire bridge crew should have an equal part in determining the fate of the vessel.

Exactly, so how about instead of limiting certain aspects of play for one group of individuals, you actually conentrate on developing ways for all groups to take equal part in it?! Give them ALL interesting things to do. Instead you are just given all of them virutally nothing really to do.

Quote
It's worth saying explicitly: we aren't making a star ship simulator here.

No you aren't that much is obvious. Tho you should be.

Quote
We've simply abstracted away the actual nuts and bolts of ship movement because they don't need to play a big part in Starfleet battles the important part of a battle is not a ship's angle, but what clever things the ship does during the fight.

You've mean you've taken away the actual fun part of ship movement, at least for helmsmen to make development easier.

Quote
We want to deliver the dramatic moments of the TV shows without getting bogged down in the dull parts.

When did moving on the vertical axis become dull?

Quote
Our plan for STO's space combat defies simple categorization it's not quite like any other Star Trek game that's come before it, so it can be hard to compare it to other games.

Hardly, this game at least its space combat movement can be categorized like StarFleet Command III ... which has the described space combat movement feature.

Quote
space combat needs to be easily understood but have deep gameplay, it must be immersive yet exciting

Again when did simply going left or right constitute "exciting"?

Ok, thats enough for me.
What do you think? Flame on!

Xenesis

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POSTS: 1448

Report this Oct. 26 2005, 3:55 pm

/flame on
Why did this need another thread?
/flame off

mirkrim

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POSTS: 132

Report this Oct. 27 2005, 1:58 am

Finally, a devblog to shut up all the whiners who think that space combat will suck - when in fact it will be no worse than games already out there, such as Bridge Commander.

ColonelGraff

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POSTS: 628

Report this Oct. 27 2005, 6:30 am

Didn't you already post this in the other thread?

JazH

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POSTS: 1849

Report this Oct. 27 2005, 7:12 am

Quote (mirkrim @ Oct. 26 2005, 6:58 am)
Finally, a devblog to shut up all the whiners who think that space combat will suck - when in fact it will be no worse than games already out there, such as Bridge Commander.

Well thats bull####, it is worse, atleast with BC you could practically go in any direction....

furrycheeky

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POSTS: 81

Report this Oct. 27 2005, 7:37 am

Yes maybe this should have gone in the other thread, but I think it would have got slightly lost in another long post.
Hopefully good posts like this (critical but getting the point over without rudeness) will cause the devs to take notice. I don't want "Starfleet Command" style flight. This game is not out for another year at least, 2D playing fields are out of date now, let alone for a release in the future. Plenty of other games allow 3d space flight already.
Gamers want new challenges, putting out another MMORPG into an ever increasingly populated genre with "tried and tested" old ideas and technology is not going to cut it. To make a game work it has to be cutting edge.
This game, by name, will attract the Star trek fans, and they will most likely play 2d/3d or whatever. To make the game a viable proposition you will have to attract in more people than just fans, and that is going to take something new, and of interest. To me going 2D playing field is not helping matters to this end.
Its early in development so why don't the Devs do some polls and get feedback of thier own now, before putting in any decisions? Not just in Star Trek forums but in general gaming communities, see what the upshot is and go from there. Everyone I have spoken to about this all would want 3D.

ElevenThirtyOne

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POSTS: 77

Report this Oct. 27 2005, 9:38 am

Yeah,
Sorry I originally posted this in this thread and copied to the other for maximum visability. I feel really strong about this and the latest news is well disastrous.

ElevenThirtyOne

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POSTS: 77

Report this Oct. 27 2005, 9:48 am

As previously stated 87.65% of this community voted in favor of full 3D combat movement.

I refer you all to the thread: (http://boards.startrek.com/communi....3;hl=3d)

Rejor

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POSTS: 79

Report this Oct. 27 2005, 9:55 am

I agree, space flight should be fully 3D. I'm looking forward to being a helm officer, getting orders from the captain to insert the coordinates, etc etc. But with only a horizontal plane of travel? Hello?

I'm not a 'harcore' sim player, but I have played Bridge Commander, among other space games. In my opinion, the combat in BC was very well done.

If they put it on the 2d plane... I'm hoping they won't make helm be a simple, "Point and click" combat system like all other MMOs out there. Such as, if I want to do a complicated maneuver, I would have to click on my "Delta evasion sequence" button, and watch the ship go through the ritual.

 If it's going to be like that, I might as well not buy the game. I've got a feeling it's going to be something like this now, since it's going to be 2D.

TookyG

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POSTS: 25

Report this Oct. 27 2005, 9:57 am

Yeah this is pretty much the first piece of news that makes me NOT want to buy this game.

...I can't believe I'm saying that.

furrycheeky

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POSTS: 81

Report this Oct. 27 2005, 10:31 am

Quote (TookyG @ Oct. 27 2005, 6:57 am)
Yeah this is pretty much the first piece of news that makes me NOT want to buy this game.

...I can't believe I'm saying that.

I know what you mean. I have been on cloud nine since this game was anounced, this is the first time I have doubted buying/subscribing.

ElevenThirtyOne

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 77

Report this Oct. 27 2005, 10:34 am

All I want is for someone to explain how PE can ignore the exact people who are going to purchase this game and pay $20+ a month to play? Let's look at the numbers...

Our target market can be broken down into 3 groups:
1. StarTrek.com Community (hardcore ST fans)
2. ST fan / Gamers
3. Sci-Fi MMOG Gamers

The first group was polled and the results: 87%+ StarTrek.com Community voted for 3D combat movement.

The second group while not as "hardcore" with respect to Star Trek have years of gaming experience behind their belts and in that respect are very sophisticated game players. It is a VERY safe determination to make that maybe of them have played SWG:JTLS and EVE and hundreads of other 3D based gaming and some 3/4 of that group would prefer ST:O to meet that requirement and exceed it.

The third group are more interested in great sci-fi games and to win this group over ST:O would definately need to feature full 3D combat naviation ammong many other such exciting and engaging fast paced features.

SirCedric2

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POSTS: 10837

Report this Oct. 27 2005, 11:31 am

Now before everyone gets bent out of shape over this, lets see how PE handles it 1st. Maybe they will show a little clip of just how the movement will look in the game.

And they have a point, how many times have you sen ship doing 3D movement in the shows? You see them on different levels of space, but you don't see them doing flips or rolls.

But the one thing I get out of this idea they are laying out, we will not see fighters in the game, at least in the begining.

furrycheeky

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 81

Report this Oct. 27 2005, 11:32 am

That covers me, Star Trek fan, and an Eve online player and have been since Day 1 (actually day -60 as I beta tested). When flying in Eve you have complete freedom of movement, and items are not all in the same plane. You can end up approaching from any angle.
I cannot forsee me enjoying a return to 2D with the occasional "special move" moving 3D for a short while.

I too cannot see where the Devs get the idea that 2D will suffice. All feedback so far has pointed the 3D route.

Maus

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 31

Report this Oct. 27 2005, 11:57 am

ElevenThirtyOne...

...you're an idiot if you believe that 74 people (the amount of your too often used 87% last time I looked) is in any way a majority. Community sites like this NEVER represent the majority. While they may have excellent feedback for the developers, there will always be more players who either don't know about or don't use the community than the few of us who do. Now, while I totally agree with your position on the 3D issue, stop throwing around the poll result; it's about as useful as saying, "Yeah? well my best friend's dad said 3D is better, so there!"

If you want one of the polls to have an weight with a topic for the developers, get a few thousand results. They will definitely pay attention then.

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