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Bible Science 101

SirCedric2

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Report this Sep. 20 2005, 12:30 am

Ok this is an open debate, all are welcome to talk about this topic in a sane manner. The question is did the Noah flood of the bible really happen?

Before we begin please read the following 1st:

All of the advocates of the idea that our earth is ancient are insistent that the proof of its age lies in the fossils and rocks in the crust of the planet. They state that these rocks point to a long evolutionary history and were either laid down over a very long period, or with some exceptions, during a local cataclysmic event, such as a massive volcanic eruption.

The fact that many of these rock layers, with attendant sprawling beds of fossils, cover entire continents, even appearing on or near mountain peaks, force "old planet" proponents to theorise about shifting shorelines, massive long-evaporated inland seas, huge meandering rivers, far exceeding anything we see today. In reality, there is very little difference between these cataclysmic events and the probable events of a world-wide flood, other that the span of years in which they occurred. Evolutionary geologists talk in millions, if not billions of years, creationists postulate that these events occurred very rapidly and covered only a few hundred years.

The flood lasted just a year, but the "drying out" process and resultant settling down of a severely traumatised planted would have taken longer. There is for example a very interesting verse in Genesis chapter 10 verse: 25 "And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided; and his brother's name was Joktan." The Hebrew word for divided is PALAG and it means to divide-by a channel of water. It is only used three times in the entire Bible (1), and probably explains the origin of the "jig-saw" configuration of the continents, or the "continental drift" theory. Peleg lived just 3 generations after the flood, so its evident that global catastrophes were still occurring in this "settling down" period. There is even geological evidence that the poles were reversed at this time! Literally, a world turned upside down.

Another event that must have occurred during, and immediately after the flood, but is not mentioned in Scripture, is unprecedented volcanic activity. The volume of water released is simply incalculable, thousands of billions of tons of water forcing down upon the mantle of the planet would have fractured and torn the surface, and depressed large land areas. It is estimated that today that parts of both Greenland and Antarctica are depressed by more than 3 kilometres by the weight of ice resting on these lands.

There is another "piece" of evidence that lends weight to the biblical flood account. Almost without exception, "flood stories" form part of the "tribal memories" of nearly every people group on earth today. These ancient verbal record pre-date Christianity and missionaries, some are as old as the biblical records, having been recorded for posterity by scribes in civilisations older than Egypt.

What would you expect to find as the result of a global flood?

Rapid destruction of an entire planetary infrastructure by flooding would leave widespread evidence of that event. Youd expect to find billions of dead things buried in rock layers, laid down by water all over the Earth. What do we find? Billions of dead things buried in rock layers, laid down by water all over the Earth! A biblical interpretation of the rocks arid fossils speaks of a global, dynamic, watery catastrophe: Noahs Deluge. The massive, world-wide coal deposits lend further weight to sudden destruction of immense primordial forests. Leave a tree on the surface of the ground today, and some species, especially softwoods like pine, aspen and birch rot and vanish within two or three years, less if the climate is damp.

The process of fossilisation is yet further evidence of a rapid event. Leave a shell or the body of a fish on the shoreline today, and its gone within a few days, either eaten, or washed out to sea again, eventually to be ground into sand by the incessant actions of the waves. There are simply no fossils being formed today. The process of calcification, the formation of stalactites and stalagmites, that according to evolutionary theories, take millions of years to occur, can and does happen rapidly. Inside the Washington Monument stalactites have formed from water seepage. A partially "fossilised" Coke bottle was found in an opal mine in Australia. We are told that diamonds take millions of years to form and are the result of carbon (coal) being exposed to high temperature and immense pressure. Artificial diamonds are regularly manufactured and form in only a few weeks!

Why is it necessary to "accept" the flood story?

I urge you to read carefully Genesis 6-9 -- chapters dealing with the Flood. If God was really trying to describe a local flood, He surely could have written a little more clearly, for over and over again the wording demands a global flood. Furthermore, God promised never to send another flood like Noah's Flood (9:11,15), but there have been many local floods, even regional floods, since Noah's time. If Noah's Flood was only local, then God lied to us. Likewise, there was no need for Noah to build an ark for his survival. He had up to 120 years' warning (6:3), long enough to walk anywhere on the earth, certainly out of the region of the coming local flood.

Perhaps more convincing is the fact that Jesus Christ based His teaching of coming judgement on all mankind on the fact that Noah's Flood judged all mankind (Matthew 24:36-39; Luke 17:26-27). A local flood implies a partial judgement. Likewise, Peter based his prophecy that the existing planet will 'melt with fervent heat' (II Peter 3:10) and an entire new heavens and new earth will be re-created (3:13) on the historical fact of the global Flood of Noah's day (3:6). All things considered, few doctrines are taught as clearly in Scripture as that of the global Flood.

Now having read the above we can begin the debate, fill free to add you points with proof for your argument. Like I said it's an open debate.

gof

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POSTS: 4455

Report this Sep. 20 2005, 1:20 am

all early civilizations have in common many things because they all encounter them one way or another. most civilization have dragons because most civilizations encounter Dino bones, so they all made up tales of huge lizards things. the difference comes from how did people see these big things. some came up with the idea that they are evil some with they idea they are good. the "dragon" idea is common in old age.

the most early civilizations lived in coastal areas cause ...... WE NEED WATER..... so wether it was a river or the beach eventually the thing overflowed and wash stuff away and of course it mustve been the gods because they didnt have any other explanation at the time. just look what happenned in new orleans ... and this is the 21th century!, now image that thousands of years ago.

lanceromega

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POSTS: 3859

Report this Sep. 20 2005, 4:15 pm

Quote (SirCedric2 @ Sep. 18 2005, 10:30 pm)
Ok this is an open debate, all are welcome to talk about this topic in a sane manner. The question is did the Noah flood of the bible really happen?

Before we begin please read the following 1st:

All of the advocates of the idea that our earth is ancient are insistent that the proof of its age lies in the fossils and rocks in the crust of the planet. They state that these rocks point to a long evolutionary history and were either laid down over a very long period, or with some exceptions, during a local cataclysmic event, such as a massive volcanic eruption.

The fact that many of these rock layers, with attendant sprawling beds of fossils, cover entire continents, even appearing on or near mountain peaks, force "old planet" proponents to theorise about shifting shorelines, massive long-evaporated inland seas, huge meandering rivers, far exceeding anything we see today. In reality, there is very little difference between these cataclysmic events and the probable events of a world-wide flood, other that the span of years in which they occurred. Evolutionary geologists talk in millions, if not billions of years, creationists postulate that these events occurred very rapidly and covered only a few hundred years.

The flood lasted just a year, but the "drying out" process and resultant settling down of a severely traumatised planted would have taken longer. There is for example a very interesting verse in Genesis chapter 10 verse: 25 "And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided; and his brother's name was Joktan." The Hebrew word for divided is PALAG and it means to divide-by a channel of water. It is only used three times in the entire Bible (1), and probably explains the origin of the "jig-saw" configuration of the continents, or the "continental drift" theory. Peleg lived just 3 generations after the flood, so its evident that global catastrophes were still occurring in this "settling down" period. There is even geological evidence that the poles were reversed at this time! Literally, a world turned upside down.

Another event that must have occurred during, and immediately after the flood, but is not mentioned in Scripture, is unprecedented volcanic activity. The volume of water released is simply incalculable, thousands of billions of tons of water forcing down upon the mantle of the planet would have fractured and torn the surface, and depressed large land areas. It is estimated that today that parts of both Greenland and Antarctica are depressed by more than 3 kilometres by the weight of ice resting on these lands.

There is another "piece" of evidence that lends weight to the biblical flood account. Almost without exception, "flood stories" form part of the "tribal memories" of nearly every people group on earth today. These ancient verbal record pre-date Christianity and missionaries, some are as old as the biblical records, having been recorded for posterity by scribes in civilisations older than Egypt.

What would you expect to find as the result of a global flood?

Rapid destruction of an entire planetary infrastructure by flooding would leave widespread evidence of that event. Youd expect to find billions of dead things buried in rock layers, laid down by water all over the Earth. What do we find? Billions of dead things buried in rock layers, laid down by water all over the Earth! A biblical interpretation of the rocks arid fossils speaks of a global, dynamic, watery catastrophe: Noahs Deluge. The massive, world-wide coal deposits lend further weight to sudden destruction of immense primordial forests. Leave a tree on the surface of the ground today, and some species, especially softwoods like pine, aspen and birch rot and vanish within two or three years, less if the climate is damp.

The process of fossilisation is yet further evidence of a rapid event. Leave a shell or the body of a fish on the shoreline today, and its gone within a few days, either eaten, or washed out to sea again, eventually to be ground into sand by the incessant actions of the waves. There are simply no fossils being formed today. The process of calcification, the formation of stalactites and stalagmites, that according to evolutionary theories, take millions of years to occur, can and does happen rapidly. Inside the Washington Monument stalactites have formed from water seepage. A partially "fossilised" Coke bottle was found in an opal mine in Australia. We are told that diamonds take millions of years to form and are the result of carbon (coal) being exposed to high temperature and immense pressure. Artificial diamonds are regularly manufactured and form in only a few weeks!

Why is it necessary to "accept" the flood story?

I urge you to read carefully Genesis 6-9 -- chapters dealing with the Flood. If God was really trying to describe a local flood, He surely could have written a little more clearly, for over and over again the wording demands a global flood. Furthermore, God promised never to send another flood like Noah's Flood (9:11,15), but there have been many local floods, even regional floods, since Noah's time. If Noah's Flood was only local, then God lied to us. Likewise, there was no need for Noah to build an ark for his survival. He had up to 120 years' warning (6:3), long enough to walk anywhere on the earth, certainly out of the region of the coming local flood.

Perhaps more convincing is the fact that Jesus Christ based His teaching of coming judgement on all mankind on the fact that Noah's Flood judged all mankind (Matthew 24:36-39; Luke 17:26-27). A local flood implies a partial judgement. Likewise, Peter based his prophecy that the existing planet will 'melt with fervent heat' (II Peter 3:10) and an entire new heavens and new earth will be re-created (3:13) on the historical fact of the global Flood of Noah's day (3:6). All things considered, few doctrines are taught as clearly in Scripture as that of the global Flood.

Now having read the above we can begin the debate, fill free to add you points with proof for your argument. Like I said it's an open debate.

Why Noah Flood?, the Sumerian tale of the Flood Predate the Bible along with the Vedic tale of Avatar of Vishnu recueing Manu.

If there is evident of a flood, wouldn't it means that the earily authors and tales be the correct story and why do we not name it after the hero's of those tales.

The flood of Manu or Utnapishtim would be the proper title of the Event..

truetrekkie1701

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Report this Sep. 20 2005, 5:29 pm

Yep,folks it did as the Bible is all true and very reliable

End of discussion  :)

SirCedric2

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POSTS: 10837

Report this Sep. 20 2005, 6:46 pm

No one is discounting any other accounts of the flood written about in other cultures, but who is to say these other cultures where not the descendants of Shem, Ham and Japheth. The story of the great flood could have been pasted down, and that would account for the other cultures having the different versions of it.

jamiekirk

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POSTS: 643

Report this Sep. 20 2005, 7:17 pm

Quote (SirCedric2 @ Sep. 19 2005, 9:30 pm)
Ok this is an open debate, all are welcome to talk about this topic in a sane manner. The question is did the Noah flood of the bible really happen?

Before we begin please read the following 1st:

All of the advocates of the idea that our earth is ancient are insistent that the proof of its age lies in the fossils and rocks in the crust of the planet. They state that these rocks point to a long evolutionary history and were either laid down over a very long period, or with some exceptions, during a local cataclysmic event, such as a massive volcanic eruption.

The fact that many of these rock layers, with attendant sprawling beds of fossils, cover entire continents, even appearing on or near mountain peaks, force "old planet" proponents to theorise about shifting shorelines, massive long-evaporated inland seas, huge meandering rivers, far exceeding anything we see today. In reality, there is very little difference between these cataclysmic events and the probable events of a world-wide flood, other that the span of years in which they occurred. Evolutionary geologists talk in millions, if not billions of years, creationists postulate that these events occurred very rapidly and covered only a few hundred years.

The flood lasted just a year, but the "drying out" process and resultant settling down of a severely traumatised planted would have taken longer. There is for example a very interesting verse in Genesis chapter 10 verse: 25 "And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided; and his brother's name was Joktan." The Hebrew word for divided is PALAG and it means to divide-by a channel of water. It is only used three times in the entire Bible (1), and probably explains the origin of the "jig-saw" configuration of the continents, or the "continental drift" theory. Peleg lived just 3 generations after the flood, so its evident that global catastrophes were still occurring in this "settling down" period. There is even geological evidence that the poles were reversed at this time! Literally, a world turned upside down.

Another event that must have occurred during, and immediately after the flood, but is not mentioned in Scripture, is unprecedented volcanic activity. The volume of water released is simply incalculable, thousands of billions of tons of water forcing down upon the mantle of the planet would have fractured and torn the surface, and depressed large land areas. It is estimated that today that parts of both Greenland and Antarctica are depressed by more than 3 kilometres by the weight of ice resting on these lands.

There is another "piece" of evidence that lends weight to the biblical flood account. Almost without exception, "flood stories" form part of the "tribal memories" of nearly every people group on earth today. These ancient verbal record pre-date Christianity and missionaries, some are as old as the biblical records, having been recorded for posterity by scribes in civilisations older than Egypt.

What would you expect to find as the result of a global flood?

Rapid destruction of an entire planetary infrastructure by flooding would leave widespread evidence of that event. Youd expect to find billions of dead things buried in rock layers, laid down by water all over the Earth. What do we find? Billions of dead things buried in rock layers, laid down by water all over the Earth! A biblical interpretation of the rocks arid fossils speaks of a global, dynamic, watery catastrophe: Noahs Deluge. The massive, world-wide coal deposits lend further weight to sudden destruction of immense primordial forests. Leave a tree on the surface of the ground today, and some species, especially softwoods like pine, aspen and birch rot and vanish within two or three years, less if the climate is damp.

The process of fossilisation is yet further evidence of a rapid event. Leave a shell or the body of a fish on the shoreline today, and its gone within a few days, either eaten, or washed out to sea again, eventually to be ground into sand by the incessant actions of the waves. There are simply no fossils being formed today. The process of calcification, the formation of stalactites and stalagmites, that according to evolutionary theories, take millions of years to occur, can and does happen rapidly. Inside the Washington Monument stalactites have formed from water seepage. A partially "fossilised" Coke bottle was found in an opal mine in Australia. We are told that diamonds take millions of years to form and are the result of carbon (coal) being exposed to high temperature and immense pressure. Artificial diamonds are regularly manufactured and form in only a few weeks!

Why is it necessary to "accept" the flood story?

I urge you to read carefully Genesis 6-9 -- chapters dealing with the Flood. If God was really trying to describe a local flood, He surely could have written a little more clearly, for over and over again the wording demands a global flood. Furthermore, God promised never to send another flood like Noah's Flood (9:11,15), but there have been many local floods, even regional floods, since Noah's time. If Noah's Flood was only local, then God lied to us. Likewise, there was no need for Noah to build an ark for his survival. He had up to 120 years' warning (6:3), long enough to walk anywhere on the earth, certainly out of the region of the coming local flood.

Perhaps more convincing is the fact that Jesus Christ based His teaching of coming judgement on all mankind on the fact that Noah's Flood judged all mankind (Matthew 24:36-39; Luke 17:26-27). A local flood implies a partial judgement. Likewise, Peter based his prophecy that the existing planet will 'melt with fervent heat' (II Peter 3:10) and an entire new heavens and new earth will be re-created (3:13) on the historical fact of the global Flood of Noah's day (3:6). All things considered, few doctrines are taught as clearly in Scripture as that of the global Flood.

Now having read the above we can begin the debate, fill free to add you points with proof for your argument. Like I said it's an open debate.

Ok, due to time restraints, I didn't read all of this, but I did notice at least one problem. The flood only lasted 40 days and 40 nights, not a year! Noah, his family, and the animals were on the ark for approximately a year and 17 days. God shut them in the ark with some time to spare, and then, of course, the waters had to abate.
And I'm not just giving my opinion here. This is timeline is commonly agreed upon by creationists, and while studying the flood in school, my teacher showed us how to piece this timeline together, using Noah's age, the time of year, the season, and/or the month mentioned. btw, it was a Christian school, not a public school, so I speak from a Christian perspective. When I have more time, I'll finish reading your long post, and maybe add more tidbits.

SirCedric2

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POSTS: 10837

Report this Sep. 20 2005, 7:29 pm

Ok lets get this right. It wasn't the flood that lasted 40 days and 40 nights, it was the rain storm that happened. The flood waters took about a year to go away.

jamiekirk

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POSTS: 643

Report this Sep. 20 2005, 8:13 pm

ok, that makes a difference. see, when people talk about the flood and how long it lasted, they usually assume the actual "flooding" - the torrent of rain and whatnot (in this case, not only did it rain, but the water underground also came up to flood the earth).

jamiekirk

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Report this Sep. 20 2005, 8:14 pm

btw, nice avatar. :cool:

SirCedric2

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Report this Sep. 20 2005, 8:29 pm

Thx  :)

I forgot about the waters from the deep, thx for reminding me.

lanceromega

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Report this Sep. 20 2005, 9:24 pm

Quote (SirCedric2 @ Sep. 19 2005, 4:46 pm)
No one is discounting any other accounts of the flood written about in other cultures, but who is to say these other cultures where not the descendants of Shem, Ham and Japheth. The story of the great flood could have been pasted down, and that would account for the other cultures having the different versions of it.

Why shouldn't we since their culture predate that of the Hebrews.

As it stand the original name for god that the jew used El was the same EL of the sumerian Gods, a storm god.

Since you are using a bibical tale as a starting point of your agruement it would proper to see if the tale is the original.

As it stand Shem, Ham and Japheth would have been descents of Manu or Utnapishtim, which make the Veda and the Sumerian culture the fore runners, since both where the original Noah..

This would be supported by the stone tablets of the Sumerian tales of Gilmesh which is the oldest written story or even the Vedic that mention Rivers that had ran dry at least 50,000 to 75000 years ago and astrological formation that occure around 60,000 years ago.

So if we are going to start at any point, we must first prove that Bibical tale is even the original and not a tale retold from more anicent cultures..

SirCedric2

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POSTS: 10837

Report this Sep. 21 2005, 7:30 am

But you forget one thing about Noah, Shem, Ham, Japheth and their wives. They lived before you could technical call them Jews, it wasn't until Abraham's time when God made the pack with him, and the Jewish nation was born.

The story of the flood was divinely inspired by God, and then written by who we believe was Moses. Moses wrote the 1st 5 books of the Bible, and if that is correct he would have done so far after a lot of other writtings of the time.

So there is no problem with seeing other curtures writting about an event, that happened maybe 1000s of years before Moses was born. God gave the words to him, and Moses wrote them down. This again is a common belief in the Christian and Jewish world view.

lanceromega

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Report this Sep. 21 2005, 11:44 am

Quote (SirCedric2 @ Sep. 20 2005, 5:30 am)
But you forget one thing about Noah, Shem, Ham, Japheth and their wives. They lived before you could technical call them Jews, it wasn't until Abraham's time when God made the pack with him, and the Jewish nation was born.

The story of the flood was divinely inspired by God, and then written by who we believe was Moses. Moses wrote the 1st 5 books of the Bible, and if that is correct he would have done so far after a lot of other writtings of the time.

So there is no problem with seeing other curtures writting about an event, that happened maybe 1000s of years before Moses was born. God gave the words to him, and Moses wrote them down. This again is a common belief in the Christian and Jewish world view.

But who's description of the event would be more accurate, since Both Manu and Utnapishtim left written accounts of the events, while morse accounting would technically be hearsay..

We have both accounts which doesnot agree with that set in the bible..

gof

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POSTS: 4455

Report this Sep. 21 2005, 12:57 pm

Quote (gof @ Sep. 19 2005, 10:20 pm)
all early civilizations have in common many things because they all encounter them one way or another. most civilization have dragons because most civilizations encounter Dino bones, so they all made up tales of huge lizards things. the difference comes from how did people see these big things. some came up with the idea that they are evil some with they idea they are good. the "dragon" idea is common in old age.

the most early civilizations lived in coastal areas cause ...... WE NEED WATER..... so wether it was a river or the beach eventually the thing overflowed and wash stuff away and of course it mustve been the gods because they didnt have any other explanation at the time.  just look what happenned in new orleans ... and this is the 21th century!, now image that thousands of years ago.

did anyone read this?

no ONE person came up with this "idea" it happenned TO ALL PEOPLES IN THE PAST like it happens now. the Tsumani and how the hurricanes, come on people .

SirCedric2

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POSTS: 10837

Report this Sep. 21 2005, 1:50 pm

Here is something else to think about with the flood in Noah's time.

It rained and it rained, for 40 days and 40 nights  the opening of the windows of heaven. This was something quite new because Genesis 2:5 explains that it did not rain during former time. The implications are that there was no rainfall until the time of the flood, when these windows of heaven opened and the rain fell. If this was so, it explains why Noah preached for so long that it was going to rain and why so few believed him. The people had not experienced rain, and they scoffed at Noah's warnings.
 Yet, the major source of the waters was not the rain, but, according to religious accounts, the fountains of the great deep (Genesis 7:11). These fountains lasted 150 days, whereas it rained just 40 days and nights. Either or both, we are talking about some huge quantities of water!
 Some have suggested that when God made the dry land appear from underneath the waters on the third day of creation, some of the water that covered the earth became trapped underneath and within the dry land. In any case, we are told in relation to the eruption of these fountains on the day the flood began, that there was a "breaking up", which implies large fissures in the ground. The waters that had been held under pressure inside the earth burst forth with catastrophic consequences.
 It is interesting to note that up to 90 percent of what comes out of volcanoes even today is water, often in the form of steam. Because there are many volcanic rocks interspersed between the fossil layers in the rock record, then it is quite appropriate to suggest that these fountains of the great deep may well have involved a series of volcanic eruptions with prodigious amounts of water bursting up through the ground.
 The world may have been deluged in 40 days of rain, but this was not the major source of the flood waters.
 So there was no rain in pre-flood times  there would have been no rainbow, either. We are told in Genesis 9:8 that God made a promise to Noah that He would never again send a flood like the one He had just sent, and that He put the rainbow in the sky as a sign of this covenant or promise. Specifically, God said (verse 13), "I do set my bow in the cloud" a reference to the fact that one needs clouds to produce rainbows.
 The clouds are made up of water droplets. As the sun shines through those water droplets, they act as glass prisms, so that the light is split up into its component colors and we see a rainbow. The whole thrust of this covenant is that this was a new thing that God was doing, so this was the first time the rainbow was seen.

 So what were these waters above the atmosphere before the flood? Many Christian scholars regard these as water in vapor form that was held up by the atmosphere. The term normally used is water vapor canopy, implying a blanket of water vapor all the way around the earth. It is hard to imagine how liquid water could be suspended above the atmosphere, but water vapor would be much lighter than liquid water.
 An ancient vapor canopy around the Earth could have shielded pre-flood inhabitants from harmful radiation, and some pre-flood people are reputed to have lived over 900 years.

If you accept the vapor canopy idea, it seems clear that the reference in Genesis 7:11 to the "windows of heaven being opened" is a reference to the collapse of this water vapor canopy, which somehow became unstable and fell as rain. Some have suggested that when the fountains of the great deep broke open  as volcanic eruptions, perhaps  the dust generated by these eruptions could have spread up into the water vapor canopy, causing the water vapor to nucleate with dust particles and form water droplets which then fell as rain.
 Such a canopy would have meant a very pleasant climate all around the globe at that time, since the earth, being encased in such a canopy, would be akin to a glasshouse, where, much more than today, the heat of the sun's energy would be trapped inside the cocooning effect of the vapor canopy. Thus, scholars talk of a greenhouse effect before the flood with a pleasant sub tropical-to-temperate climate all around the globe, even at the poles where today there is ice.
 This would have meant the growth of lush vegetation everywhere. Evidence that this did happen in the past is the discovery of coal seams in Antarctica containing vegetation which is not now found growing at the poles, but which obviously grew under warmer conditions. Still, it does not support the geological record of ice ages and glacial erosion.

Just more food for thought on the topic.

Again I say as far as other cultures, don't discount that they might have come from Noah's family that was on the Ark. Also, the land as you see it now wasn't the same back then, it was all one land mass, so it's not the hard to believe that a major world flood could have wiped out life back then. People seem to use the way things are now, to say this is what was going on, they don't use models of a one land mass to back up their Theories, they use models of how the Earth looks now to explamine away the Global flood.

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