Star Trek

In response to the survey question ..

That answer is an obvious one - the devs shouldn't get carried away and use it as an excuse to make the game too shallow.

OBVIOUSLY people choose not to play MMO's over single-player games because of the time involved, there is no way to make an MMO as easy to turn/off as Frogger.  We have all looked at an MMO that was somewhat interesting but because it was not interesting enough we concluded that the time investment would not be worthwhile.

The reason people do choose MMOs is because of the depth and complexity, and when they do invest time in it they expect that investment to pay off.  If someone pops into an MMO for 30 mins in a day and is able to make the same gains as someone who has been in for 3 hours, this would make the dedicated player's efforts ridiculous.

Players are the most valuable content in an MMO, and the amount of time they put in benefits everyone - the game should be engaging enough (aka not ho-hum casual) to reward such contribution.

Surat first in most games 80 percent of the time a casual is in the game is spent on waiting and doing menial and usels tasks.
I have rentered FF a few days ago with my chr. I was at lvl 22 and waited for more then 2 hrs to get a party in Qufim.
I couldn't do any thing stimualting.

To make a game that is less Time Intensive dosen't meen to make a game with a shorter game play but the posibility to play for shorter intervals and still get content and gampleay.
Why do you think that if you give the posibility to enter in action after 5-10 mins after loog on it will deprive you of your content and shorten teh tiem you need to achive "end game". Why do you think that you will have to be equal to the "beginers". They did say they want to make a system where high ranking and low ranking officers will have to play together.

And lastly why can't you just enjoy playing the game instead of fighting for who is the 1337est? Havn't you played yet a game where the game play itself did give you satisfaction?
Well this  last is not even so important as people that wine on how it is bad that they are on the same ground as a beginer (even if they get more story, more things to see, get far more experience from the game) should be adresed and their needs satisfyed.

/sarcasem-rant on
Maybe some floging posts, and shame pilars for newbs.
Why not make them personal slaves and tell tehm how "stupid" and noncomformistic they are.
Oh and don't forget special markings for anyone that doesn't spend mre then 4 hrs a day ingame.
/sarcasem-rant off

As you have seen they do play MMOs and have te posibility to see the situation from both sides, as some have more time to play and soem less.
Don't you think they want to try to make a system that is not grinder centric (so that casual players can enjoy the game) and at the same time enoght full of content, carisma and elements to satisfy the hardcore players?

hmm interesting STO i think isn't gonna be like any other game i've played from what i understand high ranking officers and lower ranking officers will mostlikely be based on the same station and or ship and they will work together in their selective feilds for the good of the ship and or station. thats cool thats awesome thats what i like to hear.

now i've played many mmo and the one thing i hate more that lag and server downtime which are nessasary evils are high lvls treating lower lvls like donkey dung simply cos they haven't dedicated their lifes blood to a game when they have other things to do like jobs and romance.

/signed.

A lot of people here agree that STO would be fantastic if lower ranks could help out in meaningful ways.  So far, Perpetual has indicated as much too.

I think the team experience, and gameplay, will be far more important then the rewards
and the 1 person.

I see this game as a game were a whole server together tries to archieve a goal in this
'Galactic War' together, as one big Federation, and not as single players or single clans.

That's what I am talking about. A new aproach to MMOs that can be a breaktrough in the franchise if done well.

Quote (Magecu @ Sep. 01 2005, 4:13 pm)

And lastly why can't you just enjoy playing the game instead of fighting for who is the 1337est? Havn't you played yet a game where the game play itself did give you satisfaction?

This is the part that always annoys me, people play these games to get to level 100 as soon as they can and then moan and complain there is nothing to do. In getting to this aim they often miss out actually "playing" the game and enjoying it.
This is why I like the setup Eve online has, your skill training continues nonstop logged on or not. This enables those people who cannot play often, to keep up with other players enabling them to fly the larger ships that would be unavailable if playing time was acccounted for. The advantage to the power gamer is in the experience learned, they can attack and kill larger ships using small ones due to their gained knowledge.
The result? people who play all day every day are happy, and those with less time do not find that after a few months play their character is so far behind they might as well find a new game to play.

Quote

startrek.perpetual.com GRINDING I'm hoping that we'll meet expectations for STO to be less time intensive. My view is that an aversion to the time investment is driven by two factors: compelling content (or lack thereof) and social pressures. Many people have warned us to avoid the 'grind' in the forums. I haven't played much of SWG, but I understand that the grind is especially ugly there. Providing lots of compelling missions and a variety of interesting activities is one way to address the grind. I certainly hope we can avoid the mistakes that others have made and I know we have a budget to build plenty of content. But no matter how compelling the content, I believe that the need to keep up with friends can be a big turn-off for some. No matter how fun the missions/quests are, trying to catch up with my buddies (who often have more free time than me) makes them less compelling. Star Trek certainly offers great opportunities to address this issue given the emphasis in the shows on mixing high and low ranks. It's a paradigm in which we intend to take full advantage. Daron

I feel its important to speak to this issue. I'll try to adequately articulate my position, because I don't feel Daron gets it ( doesn't understand what some may consider a grind ).

Speaking for "myself" a grind, is not lack of compelling content or the emotional or physiological need to keep up with friends. I consider any system that at it's roots is based on "leveling", that then intentionally sets up that system to inhibit or impede a player's ability to gain experience at a rapid rate in an attempt to keep people playing longer ( because the developer feels that preventing players from hitting the level cap for a long time will retain players ) is GRINDING.

IMPORTANT NOTE: Social Pressures should not be thought of in the vacuum of STO or MMO's in general. Keep in mind, from the poll results ( sampling 3000 ) 53% are between the ages of 25-55, and they do have social pressures; wives, husbands, children, jobs, etc.

From the "friends" I have (25-35) the only ones that play in that way are the ones that doesn't have or neglect their families.
They mostly don't have any real social life. And normal all their life revolves around playing. If they need to achive something in the gaem they don't sleep. They make time tables for when they work, eat, sleep, play,and if they have any ejoeys their other hobies.

So social presures are important it is just more a question of how much do you percive them.

I rarely agree with Magecu, but in this case I conditionally agree with him.  The game should not be desgined around the powergamer.  It shouldn't be.  All that will do is keep the MMO off the radar and limit its growth.  Yes it is true that powergamers are the heart of most MMOs, but that is also why sub numbers for most MMOs never hit 500k.  WoW is a successful MMO because it allowed for more casual game play than any MMO before it.  You can jump right into WoW and get things done.  You can't do that with EQ2, FFXI, or SWG.

The key is limiting downtime first and foremost.  Making the game accessable to casual players doesn't mean less content.  It means smarter content.  It means don't make is necessary to have to travel 15 minutes to do a mission.  It means don't have 15 more minutes of mission prep time.  That allows for more casual gamers without doing anything to detract from the powergamers.

At the same time though some small steps should be made to limit the tremendous gaps that develop between powergamers and casual gamers.  You need to slightly kill off the traditional MMO spirit of reward only time in game.  You certainly need to pay attention to time in game and certainly someone who only spends 5 hours a week playing should not be at the status of a 5 hour a day gamer.  However, the casual gamer still need to be able to feel his/her actions have consequence.  Games have to stop being about leveling up then getting to all the cool high end content.  That is a poor game design.  The grind always puts people off of the game and then the people who stay always become unhappy with the "end content" because it is never what they thought it would be.

For me, grinding is an leveling system based on same leveling curve all mmos are, be it AO, EQ, WOW, DAOC or anything, easy at first, then an slowdown towards end content.

Most mmo'ers start with one game, and then grow tired of the grind, and many may continue to play mmo, but no longer can level to end content due to family, and job. The startrek community here seems to be based on an experienced mmoer base, and they know the grind, but of the mmoers, many cant get into grinding on an second mmo, thats why wow is so popular as an 2. or 3. mmo. or in my case, eve.

I play anarchy online, an typical mmo when it come to leveling, probably not too far away from daoc as the lead designer has worked on, and i opened an eve account, leveled as an crappy newbie 2 weeks, and continued to level in anarchy, and logging in eve for an minute each day to change skill to level for an while. Then i was leveling little in both games, came back, and after 2 months in EVE, and 3 years in AO, what game has revarded me most?

EVE. Many of the game veteran got bad feelings towards putting so much time an energy into leveling, and it isnt the leveling rate, its THE leveling, it is compelling, good misions, varied mobs(exept ao, where you shoot ugly golems for half game >.<), but you shoot maybe millions of monsters to get to "end game", and then? Your character is an high level, and all wants to get good in the game, and most new mmoers level to high level if they stay, whatever you do. seen players level 25h every week in months, and ao is made to cater for those, wow on the other hand, lets power gamers run out of content, exept pvp.

Id like an non-leveling mmo, or something not focusing on levels. Id be happy with an unreal 1. person like combat engine, the mature trekkies may be an crowd who is gamers, but dont want to shoot borgs and cardassians to get xp, but to have fun.

I still have fun in AO, and is an veteran player, but no longer level there, its too painfull an experience to run back an forth shooting same mobs for 5 hours and not talk to others, using an tank-doctor-damagedealer setup.

To sum up my opinions simple: Mmo players grow up in one game as 18 year old, and then move on in life, and still want to play, but not the leveling, and new players wouldnt mind the curve. Its an conflict, and if this crowd is what the survey tells me, i think 1/3d is tired of mmo leveling generally. And maybe 1/10th would really play the game, in long term.

Ellessar to tell the truth I totaly agree with you.

The thing is I wouldn't like to see a great gap between players.
But I do feel that "rewards" for players that spend a lot of time ingame are necesary.
Most (there is alway some exceptions) of players needing the feeling of deeper chr achivment then others that have played less and I do admit this is not a bad thing.
It helps giving greater immerison and moregratification for the player.
I am all for it as long as it doesn't hurt the comunity and the ability for the comunity to increase and evolve.

The problem is that with this a lot of MMOGs have achived the divison of the comunity to high lvl and low level players. As this evolves the lower lvl players start to leave the game beacuse they feel like they can't do a thing, loose the touch with quicker friends and somtimes are bulied by some stupid power gamers.
As this procedes mostly high lvl players remain in the game and new players virtualy can't start a new chr, as there is no one in the low lvl zones. Even if there is someone the new gamer can compete with the share amount of money a high lvl player has for the equipment.
This in the end drives the game to it's death as there is no new players and old players start to leave it for new/other MMOs.

That is why I so pasionatly fight against a so clear gap.
As for grinding I fight it becuase by definition it is a tedius and boring task to do.

Well from what I saw from PE the idea of making high and low lvl players to work toghether can be a great solution. The only thing I am afraid of is that more the game will go one harder it will be to find lower lvl players. The only ones that will remain will be some beginers and the casual players who by definition are not exactly often in the game. I don't belive that a player that devotes a lot of time for the game will be satisfied to stay at a lower lvl and reject all the advancments.

I hope PE will find a solution to this.

-edit-
kimNO
For PE it is even better if players play only now an then but still pay the monthly fee. This is the best posible situation for them and gives the highest profit.

In my experience players like to see that they gain something from their time spent ingame. In WoW there is nothing more fun than to go back and take out monsters easily that you had much problems with just a few days ago.

A player in the endgame should be impressive compared to low level characters. That said players of different levels should be able to play together effectively. I have tried to champion an idea where missions/treks is generated dynamically based on the attending playes level and classes. Low level science players and high level security characters should be able to play together. Ie the "trek" has an easy "scan the nebula" mission and a hard away mission.

Players can do different things and still be a part of the same crew.

One thing i find important is that there should be a deterent for hig lvl players to use their skill on task intended for low lvl players.
If we look at the mob problem if you have to kill them to acomplish the mission why let the lower lvl memeber s to do it if you can kill them in a moment. It's true that you don't get no exp and no gold for it but it is quicker.
That's why i think that if you want to have high and low lvl plaers warking toghether some way of liminting high lvls from intrudin on the task intended for lowlvls should exist. No I think that it is not wrong if a high lvl helps a someone with a lower lvl. I just don't want to see that a high lvl can doo all that a low lvl can because lower levels then become non esential and usles in a party.
As I said why would you want a lower lvl in your party if you can do all and quicker then him?