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cotton candy MMO reality

storm_shadow

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POSTS: 121

Report this Jun. 01 2005, 11:35 am

Is reality possible? Can this possibly work if implemented into STO? Instantly we've got to ask: Who wants to build up a character only to have it killed instantly so we have to restart again? What I'm driving at is part of what irritated me with SWG (why not hack on them; perfect example of what NOT to do in an MMO) and that is this: The 'everyone wins' philosophy. When a quest item was up for grabs it stayed that way. Everyone could get it. Worse, it wasn't interesting to anyone because you could get better items made by crafters.

What about the death system? Like every other MMO out there, developers are afraid to kill off characters so slap 'penalties' onto your character instead. In SWG, it started as corpse runs then they ridded that and you had your equipment that you carried damaged. All of this is stupid. When I first started typing this I thought I was being harsh but thinking back to my 'teen' years I'm not so sure now.

Anyone who played any sort of paper/dice RPG knows what I'm talking about. We had characters way back when and they did in fact die (*shocking gasp*)! Why not have the same system implemented in an MMO?

I'm aware that there is a lot of work involved in building a character and I've done my share of grinding in games also. But this relates to a post I put up about a week ago: the character/profession progression shouldn't be a grind but rather made fun so it doesn't seem as such. Hopefully with STO we'll have a focus on exploration, politics and many other things rather than the bottom line being combat (although that's certainly got to be a part of it) and this will all help advance characters rather than shooting or gathering things for endless hours (hence: grinding). Paper and dice RPGs have been done (successfully I might add) for years like I'm suggesting. No GM in their right mind would set up a session where they'd fight off minor creatures for hours and 'gather' things to improve skills.

Back to my main point. Following the above example of 'How to avoid the grind', why can we not have a similar death system? I had a fairly high level troll fighter killed off once and even though I was irritated, I certainly didn't quit the game. I made a new character and moved on. Someone tell me what is wrong with this idea (beyond the kicking and screaming, 'I don't wanna play like that!' answer).

ShockTroop

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POSTS: 155

Report this Jun. 01 2005, 11:52 am

I'm currently developing an mmorpg with a  death system.  I think it is possible but it can't be an frequent thing.  Meaning you can't be dying all the time, losing all your stuff and experience.  Players will get fed up with it.  They won't risk dying and the game will suck royally.

What I've done is added a lifespan.  When you get seriously hurt you're put into stasis and sent back to a med facility.  It's the equivilant of dying in most MMO's.  However your trips to stasis and many wounds over time take points off your lifespan.  Over months of playing you begin to reach the end of your lifespan and completely die.  You can do a few things to prolong it and save some knowledge but death is not 100% aviodable.  Also as you get closer to the end of your lifespan you become more susceptible to sickness and loose some physcial vitality, ect.

Not sure how players will like it.  It's meant to ensure that no players become to powerful in the game but most importantly it adds some realism.  

I know for sure that daily deaths will not float well in an MMO.

storm_shadow

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POSTS: 121

Report this Jun. 01 2005, 12:02 pm

Quote (ShockTroop @ June 01 2005, 8:52 am)
I know for sure that daily deaths will not float well in an MMO.

I'll agree with this (and add that your idea doesn't sound too shabby at all) but then also point out that perhaps death won't be encountered in STO as it is with every other MMO. Again, back to paper/dice RPGs. Danger was everywhere but you didn't take on something that was way out of your league.

Remember, combat should not be the main factor of this game as it is with every other MMO (but certainly a part of it..what fun is it to pilot a ship and not fight, right?) and death is surely a part of exploration (just ask any redshirt, heh).

Ellessar

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POSTS: 1848

Report this Jun. 01 2005, 1:11 pm

Well I have a simple response to this.  

If PE does include perma death either from character life span or regular death, I simply will not play.  There is no wiggle room on this issue for me.  I'm a huge trek fan, but I am perfectly willing to go on and play another MMO.  There certainly will be a lot to choose from.  If you think I am going to put in six months or a year on a character then have him die you are out of your mind.  I think you will find you are in the slim minority on this issue.

Consider this.  If you want to impose perma death nothing is stopping you.  If you want the "gasp" challenge as you call it, then go ahead and reroll every time you die.  You are certainly free to do that.  You are free to play by whatever rules you wish.  Just because you want to do that, don't make it so everyone else needs to as well.

storm_shadow

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POSTS: 121

Report this Jun. 01 2005, 1:17 pm

Quote (Ellessar @ June 01 2005, 10:11 am)
Well I have a simple response to this.

If PE does include perma death either from character life span or regular death, I simply will not play. There is no wiggle room on this issue for me. I'm a huge trek fan, but I am perfectly willing to go on and play another MMO. There certainly will be a lot to choose from. If you think I am going to put in six months or a year on a character then have him die you are out of your mind. I think you will find you are in the slim minority on this issue.

Consider this. If you want to impose perma death nothing is stopping you. If you want the "gasp" challenge as you call it, then go ahead and reroll every time you die. You are certainly free to do that. You are free to play by whatever rules you wish. Just because you want to do that, don't make it so everyone else needs to as well.

This is the exact opposite of what I was hoping in a reply. No need to be defensive, I'm sure they're past this point n development talks by now anyway.

Did you ever play paper/dice RPGs? I thought I was nuts for even suggesting such a thing until I realized I've played permadeath (along with thousands of others) style for a long while back when I was much less patient and the system worked just fine.

Anyone have a better response than 'I'm not playing'? Not trying to start a brushfire, honestly curious what is wrong with it.

Let me add this: When a ship is crippled the entire crew wouldn't die in STO, so it's not as if you get blasted to nothing and lose your character on a daily or weekly basis. Even if the ship was destroyed, there are lifepods, you know.

Starski

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POSTS: 427

Report this Jun. 01 2005, 1:22 pm

I would like to see a death system put into the game but also believe that there needs to be more balance put into the game to allow a player a good way to skill/level up that is other then grinding kills.

Personally I would love to see this game with a large base around exploration rather then war and combat.

storm_shadow

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POSTS: 121

Report this Jun. 01 2005, 1:37 pm

Quote (Starski @ June 01 2005, 10:22 am)
I would like to see a death system put into the game but also believe that there needs to be more balance put into the game to allow a player a good way to skill/level up that is other then grinding kills.

Personally I would love to see this game with a large base around exploration rather then war and combat.

Agreed. What's more I've been sitting here brainstorming further. Perhaps this is part of the problem for powergamers. They get in such a frenzy to climb climb climb, that the exploration is complete and fun is hard to find. This is going to happen to anyone racing their way to the top with no permadeath system. Eventually, you ARE going to get bored and to the point of having done everything.
The adventure on your way to the top should be what is just as much fun (as I brought up in another post) even if you die and have to restart before you reach it.

When I see people get upset like Ellessar did at the very suggestion of permadeath, it makes me think that we're all looking for the wrong thing in an MMO. An analogy:

I finished reading Stephen King's Dark Tower series (quite long, started twenty years ago roughly) in December. I remember being really irritated at how it ended but then realized that my expectations were misguided. The journey (reading) to get to the end was (and should have been) great fun; the end was not so much fun. What expectation should I have had to begin with, I thought to myself? Curiosity indeed, but what else?

I bring this up because I think it's analogous to our expectations as gamers. Not having permadeath is a large part of the problem because as I said, people 'die', rejuvenate, suffer a penalty and continue onward so that they never really get stalled and before you know it, they've done and/or seen it all.

This is only a problem if you're playing something that is combat-driven. Something that I assume we all, as ST fans, do not primarily want.

Xenesis

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POSTS: 1448

Report this Jun. 01 2005, 2:29 pm

Well a couple of points...

1. We'll be paying to play the game.
2. We will be investing time to play our characters.
3. For most mmorpg's there is a deep character devlopment system, levels equipment talents AA's etc, people don't like losing that.
4. No one likes permadeath in these games because it signals a waste of time to the player(mmog's are a waste of time anyways but not the point), time that we paid for to develop a character to our liking.

Think about this way, it's almost like building a new home with your own hands with your own money, only to have it suddenly ripped apart by some freak out of nowhere tornado. You wouldn't feel good losing something you spent a good bit of time working on would you? Some people wouldn't even feel the need to start over.

I know it makes sense to have permadeath, but in a "game" where it's possible to die without it even being your fault, people don't like starting over with nothing.

The only way I see permadeath coming into these games is...
1. Practically no character development, basically nothing to attach a lost to your characters death (see fps games)
2. Recreating of characters is fairly fast.
3. It better be hard to die, so much so that it is a rare event for you.

I'm with Ellessar though, I wouldn't play a game if permadeath was involved, it'll just end up being frustrating for me especially since I have a temper and can get mad easily, I play these games to relax and have fun, having a single little thought that I could lose it all at any time does not make it fun, but again it all depends on the character development involved in the first place. Could care less if I die in a fps game, rpg is totally different.

storm_shadow

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POSTS: 121

Report this Jun. 01 2005, 3:07 pm

Quote (Xenesis @ June 01 2005, 11:29 am)

Thanks for the response, good thoughtful points!

Quote

Think about this way, it's almost like building a new home with your own hands with your own money, only to have it suddenly ripped apart by some freak out of nowhere tornado. You wouldn't feel good losing something you spent a good bit of time working on would you? Some people wouldn't even feel the need to start over.


Hm....not really a fair comparison. Having your house ripped down is far more drastic to losing a game character. If anyone truly thinks that this is the equivalent situation, seek help. I'm more apt to think the comparison to paper/dice RPG's is more fair where permadeath did exist.

Quote

I know it makes sense to have permadeath, but in a "game" where it's possible to die without it even being your fault, people don't like starting over with nothing.


Well, perhaps hazards during exploration could be toned down or quite obvious. Obvious meaning: if you're dumb enough to walk off the end of a cliff where the danger is clearly present, then you deserved what you got. Toned down: meaning that if you explored a jungle environment and you get bit by (insert nasty beast or plant) then you would have a time limit in which the Doc would have to fix you up before dying (if it were a particular nasty bite or whatever) rather than keeling over as a corpse right away.

I'm not suggesting we become prone to random lightning strikes or slipping and falling on a puddle of spilt bloodwine only to break our necks. That's too extreme in the opposite direction.

Cormoran

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POSTS: 1609

Report this Jun. 01 2005, 4:06 pm

Two words; Lag Death.

In your pen and paper RPGs did you ever die because someone spilt coffee on the DMs quest book?

Quote
If anyone truly thinks that this is the equivalent situation, seek help. I'm more apt to think the comparison to paper/dice RPG's is more fair where permadeath did exist.


Indeed, however your analogy is also not apt, we're not dealing with pen and paper here, we're dealing with a PC game. I could note that in star trek email PBeMs, which are also immensely popular, death is completely up to the player. That said i'll say this again, you wan't permadeath? then when your character dies punch yourself in the nuts and delete the character, that way you get what you want and you don't ruin everyone elses game.

ScottMG

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POSTS: 59

Report this Jun. 01 2005, 5:31 pm

That would put you at a disatvantage compaired to everyone else.

Although I'm not for having to start over when you die, I do think there should be some sort of penalty. If being defeated doesnt mean anything, the joy of winning is vastly reduced. Thats what I think anyway.

ShockTroop

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POSTS: 155

Report this Jun. 01 2005, 5:55 pm

Quote

The only way I see permadeath coming into these games is...
1. Practically no character development, basically nothing to attach a lost to your characters death (see fps games)
2. Recreating of characters is fairly fast.
3. It better be hard to die, so much so that it is a rare event for you.


Exactly.  You have to walk on the edge and be very careful with it but it's possible.  You have to make sure they don't lose everything.  You can take a small portion of experience or maybe some non-essential stuff.  Inventory would have to stay along with anything else that took a long time to obtain.  Building a character over time is an investment in time and subscription costs.  Doing anything drastic will make the player feel like you're stealing from him.

You have to give benefits in return too.  For instance the ability to go back and do a one-time only quest or get one-time only loots.  Maybe even some kind of veteran bonus or experience that is only acquired after death.  It can be balanced out.

I don't think anyone has ever done permadeath properly.  Any game that has tried has just cut the whole thing out, instead of tweaking it after players got mad.

Dace

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POSTS: 35

Report this Jun. 01 2005, 6:01 pm

clone yourself

storm_shadow

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POSTS: 121

Report this Jun. 01 2005, 6:17 pm

Quote (Cormoran @ June 01 2005, 1:06 pm)

Quote
Two words; Lag Death.

In your pen and paper RPGs did you ever die because someone spilt coffee on the DMs quest book?

Indeed, however your analogy is also not apt, we're not dealing with pen and paper here, we're dealing with a PC game. I could note that in star trek email PBeMs, which are also immensely popular, death is completely up to the player. That said i'll say this again, you wan't permadeath? then when your character dies punch yourself in the nuts and delete the character, that way you get what you want and you don't ruin everyone elses game.


Read closer. I didn't say the analogy was perfect, it's just much more accurate(pen and paper compared to a tornado nuking your home).

Yes lag death is a problem and that would be something to consider also.

The last comment was a tantrum. Not interested.

Danubus

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POSTS: 140

Report this Jun. 01 2005, 6:20 pm

I play in a Neverwinter nights Permadeath Persistant world and I enjoy it a lot. I would love to have a server dedicated to Permadeath, but just that. Permadeath isnt for everyone and most people who play MMO's are very "all about themselves". So, I just dont see it happening in a MMO.

Permadeath works well for true roleplaying, but the way MMO's are set up and the amount of ### hats that usually play them it just wont jive. People will get upset getting killed constantly or if PVP is involved people wouldnt want to recreate a new character.

I would enjoy a special RP permadeath server though. It would be kinda nice to see a company take a chance and allow people who do enjoy this type of play a place to play.

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