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Warp Drives

Vold

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POSTS: 16223

Report this May. 17 2005, 8:56 am

There's 2 main thing I want to ask. I'm sure you may have heard them before, but bare with me please. :)

1. How Warp works
not really a question just to see if i'm right on something.
:)

- most ships in the Trek galaxy uses Warp Cores as a power source for the ship & its engines. Using matter & anti-matter to generate power.

- they use Dilithium to increase the efficiency of the power, hence without it the core would produce not enough power to power up even the smallest ship (shield, weapons, warp drives, etc.)

- Its engine is literally merely an "Anti-Matter" engine right?
which can push a ship to 60% of the speed of light.

- So how a do they move faster than speed of light?
here's how I see it, correct me if i'm wrong.

What the ship does is, create a warp field around the ship. Which somehow pushes them into subspace.

After that, they use simple "Anti-Matter" engine to trust the ship. But since they are in subspace, unlike normal space, it can push the ship faster than the speed of light.

- for example,
DS9 "Emissary"

they moved the station by creating a field around the station & pushed it with mere thrusters. Thanks to the field, thrusters are like impulse.

ok, now for the 2nd 'question'.

2. Warping in a Star system
- warp is faster than light
- impulse is sub-light speed (Fusion engines?)

- they say its dangerous to warp within a system. (why?)
They also make it sound like it close to "impossible" to do so. Overexaggeration maybe.
- but they also say at Warp 5 they can leave a system in 6 minutes.

- at impulse, it'll take hours if not days to cross a system.

now how's it possible for them to use impulse all the time in the system?
I've seen them leave systems much faster than even an hour.

I've also seen (In various series) they warp from inside a system to get out of a system.

Now IMO,
warping from planet to planet, I'd agree its dangerous.
warping in or out an unknown system is also dangerous.

But warping into or out from a familiar system, is much safer. But not without risk.
just find an empty path & warp through there. Planets are usually far apart from one another. Very far most of them time.

So sometimes warping out of a system is ok right?

that's all for now, thanks
:)

AquamonkeyEG

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 4915

Report this May. 17 2005, 1:50 pm

1) the nacelles actually push the ship. this was said in VOY:"Threshold" when they realized the nacelles were flying off the ship because the structural integrity wasn't strong enough. since there is nothing inside the nacelles except for field coils and plasma injectors, the only thing propelling the ship are the warp fields themselves. they use a multi-layered warp field configuration so that they push against each other and subspace itself. the higher the warp factor the stronger the fields and the deeper into subspace they extend. they aren't completely in subspace otherwise they wouldn't need the main deflector, they are partially shifted into subspace which allows them to get around relativity and go past luminal velocity.

impulse works sorta the same way except it uses a smaller field which could or could not be symmetrical (static warp field). the low energy warp field probly isn't strong enough to provide any propulsive power, so it is probably symmetrical. they get their thrust from the fussion rockets (red thing on the back of the ENT-D) and thrusters. the field lowers the effective mass of the ship because it is partially displaced in subspace, so they can accelerate faster.

2) maybe they warp out of the plane of the star systems?

my guess as to why it is dangerous to warp within a system is because of the gravitational fields from the planets and the star.

maybe it has to do with that slingshot maneuver and other such time travel crap they spewed out in TOS.

in STIV: "The Voyage Home" they didn't have any trouble going to warp within the earth's atmosphere.

lanceromega

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POSTS: 3859

Report this May. 17 2005, 3:10 pm

Quote (Vold @ May 17 2005, 5:56 am)
There's 2 main thing I want to ask. I'm sure you may have heard them before, but bare with me please. :)

1. How Warp works
not really a question just to see if i'm right on something.
:)

- most ships in the Trek galaxy uses Warp Cores as a power source for the ship & its engines. Using matter & anti-matter to generate power.

- they use Dilithium to increase the efficiency of the power, hence without it the core would produce not enough power to power up even the smallest ship (shield, weapons, warp drives, etc.)

- Its engine is literally merely an "Anti-Matter" engine right?
which can push a ship to 60% of the speed of light.

- So how a do they move faster than speed of light?
here's how I see it, correct me if i'm wrong.

What the ship does is, create a warp field around the ship. Which somehow pushes them into subspace.

After that, they use simple "Anti-Matter" engine to trust the ship. But since they are in subspace, unlike normal space, it can push the ship faster than the speed of light.

- for example,
DS9 "Emissary"

they moved the station by creating a field around the station & pushed it with mere thrusters. Thanks to the field, thrusters are like impulse.

ok, now for the 2nd 'question'.

2. Warping in a Star system
- warp is faster than light
- impulse is sub-light speed (Fusion engines?)

- they say its dangerous to warp within a system. (why?)
They also make it sound like it close to "impossible" to do so. Overexaggeration maybe.
- but they also say at Warp 5 they can leave a system in 6 minutes.

- at impulse, it'll take hours if not days to cross a system.

now how's it possible for them to use impulse all the time in the system?
I've seen them leave systems much faster than even an hour.

I've also seen (In various series) they warp from inside a system to get out of a system.

Now IMO,
warping from planet to planet, I'd agree its dangerous.
warping in or out an unknown system is also dangerous.

But warping into or out from a familiar system, is much safer. But not without risk.
just find an empty path & warp through there. Planets are usually far apart from one another. Very far most of them time.

So sometimes warping out of a system is ok right?

that's all for now, thanks
:)

1. Well Warp is doesnot push or pull the ship it basically is altering the Geometery of space to take a path shorther than the one light takes. Apparently according to ST this path is thru subspace.

The antimatter is used to create plasma that is used to create the warp field that surround the ship..

Now the warp / subspace field is also used to negate some of the inertia of the ship, basically reducing it apparent mass, the actual thrust is provided by the impulse engines which are basically fusion rockets.

So in the case of DS9 they reduce the mass of the station to a point where the thrusters could move it. The Thruster would still have work but due to mass of the station the acceleration of the station would be very small and it would not been able to leave the obrit of the planet.

2. Even in a well known system you are going to have millions ( if not billions ) of micro meteors, even a spect of dust would be dangerous to a ship traveling at a hi velocity. Now the actually velocity of the ship traveling thru warp may be small the apparent velocity of the warp bubble is high (FTL). The ship would have a low Kinetic energy due to real velocity thru subspace and it reduce mass, but the kinetic energy of dust particle strike a ship would be massive, due to the fact that the warp bubble is striking the dust particle at speed greater than the speed of light...

Now the major potions of all the matter in any system would be located in a plane of obrits of the planets, so there would be less matter if the ship just travel at 90 degree angle and then adjust the course after it was out of the plane. The only problem is that they would need to slow down once they approach the Oort cloud. which lies in a sphere around 50,000 AU away from the sun..

Now not all solar system would have a Oort cloud or have it at the same distant.

As for STIV , I yet to meet a ST movie that made sense other than the Wrath of Khan... And that because the girl I took cried so much when spock died that I got lucky :)...

AquamonkeyEG

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POSTS: 4915

Report this May. 17 2005, 3:40 pm

i like my explanation of warp drive better because it is more unrealistic :p

RenderkingFisk

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POSTS: 1948

Report this May. 17 2005, 3:56 pm

Once in a while they're talk somewhere about using magnetic feilds to alter the "Space" and "Time" around a ship and then ripple those feilds to move the ship forward while moving backwards in time.

One foot forward, one second in time back...
One foot forward, one second in time back...
One foot forward, one second in time back...

Hence "Warp" travel.

You'll find articles about this in "Scientific American," and "Popular Science" and the like.

A lot of this is just wild speculation. It's like men and women in the Victorian era trying to explain to each other how a 3ghz computer would work and communicate via an "Internet" while talking about nonsense on the television in a hundred years from their "now".

lanceromega

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POSTS: 3859

Report this May. 17 2005, 4:25 pm

Quote (RenderkingFisk @ May 17 2005, 12:56 pm)
Once in a while they're talk somewhere about using magnetic feilds to alter the "Space" and "Time" around a ship and then ripple those feilds to move the ship forward while moving backwards in time.

One foot forward, one second in time back...
One foot forward, one second in time back...
One foot forward, one second in time back...

Hence "Warp" travel.

You'll find articles about this in "Scientific American," and "Popular Science" and the like.

A lot of this is just wild speculation. It's like men and women in the Victorian era trying to explain to each other how a 3ghz computer would work and communicate via an "Internet" while talking about nonsense on the television in a hundred years from their "now".

Magnetic fields to warp space and time? sound like that Philly experimental myth that UFOlogist talk about all the time...

We may not be advance enought to Travel FTL, but thank to Einstein and a few Brilliant Physicist we have a few theories how warp would work. Generally it invovles exotic matter or negative energy to create a region of rapidly expanding space that carries a ship along at FTL speed, since expansion of space is not limited to speed of light.

This kind of warp is safe from collision with matter, since the front of ship is a region of space that has tidal forces so strong that matter is reduced to a shower of mesons. All we need is heavy radiation shielding..

A good article on the matter is the following :

http://www.physics.hku.hk/~tboyce/sf/topics/wormhole/wormhole.html

AquamonkeyEG

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POSTS: 4915

Report this May. 17 2005, 5:21 pm

sounds like it would make a decent doomsday device

lanceromega

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POSTS: 3859

Report this May. 17 2005, 7:26 pm

Quote (AquamonkeyEG @ May 17 2005, 2:21 pm)
sounds like it would make a decent doomsday device

It a great weapon, and actually one paper show that you could generate a warp bubble without causing it to move, making an force field that could deflect laser and destroy solid missiles or meteor..

Problem is generating the negative energy..

Vold

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 16223

Report this May. 17 2005, 8:34 pm

Quote (lanceromega @ May 17 2005, 12:10 pm)
1.
a) Well Warp is doesnot push or pull the ship

b) it basically is altering the Geometery of space to take a path shorther than the one light takes. Apparently according to ST this path is thru subspace.

c) the actual thrust is provided by the impulse engines which are basically fusion rockets.

So in the case of DS9 they reduce the mass of the station to a point where the thrusters could move it. The Thruster would still have work but due to mass of the station the acceleration of the station would be very small and it would not been able to leave the obrit of the planet.

2. a) Even in a well known system you are going to have millions ( if not billions ) of micro meteors, even a spect of dust would be dangerous to a ship traveling at a hi velocity. Now the actually velocity of the ship traveling thru warp may be small the apparent velocity of the warp bubble is high (FTL). The ship would have a low Kinetic energy due to real velocity thru subspace and it reduce mass, but the kinetic energy of dust particle strike a ship would be massive, due to the fact that the warp bubble is striking the dust particle at speed greater than the speed of light...

b) The only problem is that they would need to slow down once they approach the Oort cloud. which lies in a sphere around 50,000 AU away from the sun..

1. Believe it or not, that's how my idea works too.

a) I never said warp is the one pushing the ship. I said its the "Anti-matter engines" that's pushing the ship

b) while the "Warp" sends them into subspace where's there's less friction & stuff to shorten the trip.
Hence using anti-matter engines though normally slower than the speed of light, can be faster than speed of light thanks to the warp field.

c) Fusion?
that's slower than anti-matter engines.

hmm...
If Fusion engine can push a ship in a warp field to reach Warp speed

than maybe anti-matter engine can push a ship in a warp field to reach transwarp speed.
:D

thanks to DS9, I got a glimpse of how Warp Drives works.
:)

2. a)
the danger you propose are only "micro fragments"

Well Isn't that what "Deflector Dishes" are for?

Even the NX-01 have them. So there shouldn't be much danger for ships with Deflectors. Assuming micro fragments is the only danger in the system that got people spooked in quoting like that.

I wonder, if the mining facility have a deflector.
:O

b)
what about nebulas? aren't they like micro stuff too?

Braxton474439G

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POSTS: 263

Report this May. 17 2005, 9:53 pm

Quote (lanceromega @ May 17 2005, 12:10 pm)
Now the warp / subspace field is also used to negate some of the inertia of the ship, basically reducing it apparent mass, the actual thrust is provided by the impulse engines which are basically fusion rockets.

Actually, Impulse Engines also use the pretty much same basic principles as Warp Drive does, just on a smaller scale. That's why they can get up to 25% of light speed.

Vold

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POSTS: 16223

Report this May. 17 2005, 9:59 pm

Quote (Braxton474439G @ May 17 2005, 6:53 pm)
Quote (lanceromega @ May 17 2005, 12:10 pm)
Now the warp / subspace field is also used to negate some of the inertia of the ship, basically reducing it apparent mass, the actual thrust is provided by the impulse engines which are basically fusion rockets.

Actually, Impulse Engines also use the pretty much same basic principles as Warp Drive does, just on a smaller scale. That's why they can get up to 25% of light speed.

25%?

where did u get that info?

if that's true, that's even slower than Anti-matter engines or Fusion engines.

dang, where's that paper when i need it.

do anyone here know the speeds of each engines?

% to the speed of light
Fusion - ?
Fission - ?
Anti-Matter - 60%
Laser sail - 100% / 99%

A180H

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POSTS: 113

Report this May. 17 2005, 10:30 pm

Read the book, "Physics of Star Trek".

spacemonster

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POSTS: 2423

Report this May. 17 2005, 11:02 pm

Quote (Vold @ May 17 2005, 6:59 pm)
Quote (Braxton474439G @ May 17 2005, 6:53 pm)
Quote (lanceromega @ May 17 2005, 12:10 pm)
Now the warp / subspace field is also used to negate some of the inertia of the ship, basically reducing it apparent mass, the actual thrust is provided by the impulse engines which are basically fusion rockets.

Actually, Impulse Engines also use the pretty much same basic principles as Warp Drive does, just on a smaller scale. That's why they can get up to 25% of light speed.

25%?

where did u get that info?

if that's true, that's even slower than Anti-matter engines or Fusion engines.

dang, where's that paper when i need it.

do anyone here know the speeds of each engines?

% to the speed of light
Fusion - ?
Fission - ?
Anti-Matter - 60%
Laser sail - 100% / 99%

It's in the Trek encyclopedia (i.e. canon).  As far as I remember, they picked 25% because it's the 'safest' speed to be going before relativistic effects start becoming pronounced.   They can go faster, but apparently the intergalactic rules specify that 25% is all one should go at Impulse speeds, sort of like the rule that all starships meet each other in the same direction, at the same angle, even before first contact is established.

Whitestar7

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 419

Report this May. 17 2005, 11:19 pm

Quote (lanceromega @ May 17 2005, 1:25 pm)
Quote (RenderkingFisk @ May 17 2005, 12:56 pm)
Once in a while they're talk somewhere about using magnetic feilds to alter the "Space" and "Time" around a ship and then ripple those feilds to move the ship forward while moving backwards in time.

One foot forward, one second in time back...
One foot forward, one second in time back...
One foot forward, one second in time back...

Hence "Warp" travel.

You'll find articles about this in "Scientific American," and "Popular Science" and the like.

A lot of this is just wild speculation. It's like men and women in the Victorian era trying to explain to each other how a 3ghz computer would work and communicate via an "Internet" while talking about nonsense on the television in a hundred years from their "now".

Magnetic fields to warp space and time? sound like that Philly experimental myth that UFOlogist talk about all the time...

We may not be advance enought to Travel FTL, but thank to Einstein and a few Brilliant Physicist we have a few theories how warp would work. Generally it invovles exotic matter or negative energy to create a region of rapidly expanding space that carries a ship along at FTL speed, since expansion of space is not limited to speed of light.

This kind of warp is safe from collision with matter, since the front of ship is a region of space that has tidal forces so strong that matter is reduced to a shower of mesons. All we need is heavy radiation shielding..

A good article on the matter is the following :

http://www.physics.hku.hk/~tboyce/sf/topics/wormhole/wormhole.html

The link you provided is featured in the Scientific America magazine. I have that issue and found out something very interesting. In one section of the article, it stated that if we were to actually construct a warp drive engine, the view from the bridge as the starship is traveling faster-than-light would look nothing like the star streaks typically depicted in science fiction. Rather, the stars ahead of the ship would appear even closer to the direction of motion and turn bluer in color. And behind the ship, stars shift closer to a position directly astern, redden and eventually disappear from view altogether. Furthermore, the light from stars directly overhead or underneath remains unaffected.


But getting back to the stars turning bluer in color, how would the people inside a ship see the stars coming at them if it doesn't involve stars-streaking?


Whitestar7

lanceromega

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 3859

Report this May. 17 2005, 11:37 pm

Quote (Vold @ May 17 2005, 5:34 pm)
Quote (lanceromega @ May 17 2005, 12:10 pm)
1.
a) Well Warp is doesnot push or pull the ship

b) it basically is altering the Geometery of space to take a path shorther than the one light takes. Apparently according to ST this path is thru subspace.

c) the actual thrust is provided by the impulse engines which are basically fusion rockets.

So in the case of DS9 they reduce the mass of the station to a point where the thrusters could move it. The Thruster would still have work but due to mass of the station the acceleration of the station would be very small and it would not been able to leave the obrit of the planet.

2. a) Even in a well known system you are going to have millions ( if not billions ) of micro meteors, even a spect of dust would be dangerous to a ship traveling at a hi velocity. Now the actually velocity of the ship traveling thru warp may be small the apparent velocity of the warp bubble is high (FTL). The ship would have a low Kinetic energy due to real velocity thru subspace and it reduce mass, but the kinetic energy of dust particle strike a ship would be massive, due to the fact that the warp bubble is striking the dust particle at speed greater than the speed of light...

b) The only problem is that they would need to slow down once they approach the Oort cloud. which lies in a sphere around 50,000 AU away from the sun..

1. Believe it or not, that's how my idea works too.

a) I never said warp is the one pushing the ship. I said its the "Anti-matter engines" that's pushing the ship

b) while the "Warp" sends them into subspace where's there's less friction & stuff to shorten the trip.
Hence using anti-matter engines though normally slower than the speed of light, can be faster than speed of light thanks to the warp field.

c) Fusion?
that's slower than anti-matter engines.

hmm...
If Fusion engine can push a ship in a warp field to reach Warp speed

than maybe anti-matter engine can push a ship in a warp field to reach transwarp speed.
:D

thanks to DS9, I got a glimpse of how Warp Drives works.
:)

2. a)
the danger you propose are only "micro fragments"

Well Isn't that what "Deflector Dishes" are for?

Even the NX-01 have them. So there shouldn't be much danger for ships with Deflectors. Assuming micro fragments is the only danger in the system that got people spooked in quoting like that.

I wonder, if the mining facility have a deflector.
:O

b)
what about nebulas? aren't they like micro stuff too?

1. Actually the impulse engine is what provide the thrust, the warp core is what fuel with antimatter..

Due to mass reduction of subspace fields the impulse engine get to drive the ship at 25 C.

The speed at warp is not due to thrust but on how short a path the warp field can create.

2. no dust, micrometeors, uncharted meteors, space junk and asteriods. The deflector array would be limited in the scope of how large a item it can deflect. Most meteors are too large even at impulse as seen from various episode, even Photon torpedoes cannot be deflected.

At best it very likely that Deflector can deflect particles of dust and micrometeor less than a grams.

As we seen from series passing thru a nebula forces a ship out of warp..

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