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MACO/MARINES

R2X

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POSTS: 79

Report this Apr. 24 2005, 10:18 pm

in star trek there is the MACO(STE) and a marine corps. in alot of fan sites
should there be a capt. MACO/marine allowed (equal to a naval Lt.)(O-3)

ColonelGraff

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POSTS: 628

Report this Apr. 24 2005, 10:34 pm

There will be no marines in Star Trek: Online

Whether there should be or shouldn't be is another argument that I really don't want to get into again :p

Tal_Shiar_Officer

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POSTS: 1652

Report this Apr. 24 2005, 11:01 pm

I believe that for the purposes of Star Trek: Online, the normal security occupation works well. I do not see much need for marines.

StompDancer

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POSTS: 25

Report this Apr. 24 2005, 11:24 pm

In the books there is a military branch of Starfleet...as well as more classified branches.  In short, the Federation is not soley protected by science and exploration vessels that just happen to be outfitted with weapons...as shown in the episodes and movies.  There are military troops.  Maby not Marines per se, but yes, having them in STO would make perfect sense...so long as they do it right :).

MAXIMISE

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POSTS: 194

Report this Apr. 24 2005, 11:34 pm

We don't need Marines. All Starfleet would need are personnel who specialise in assault and tactical logistics on top of there normal duties.

If you look at the setup of the Starfleet heirachy and method of action, all the personnel are in effect multi-role (there preferred role like engineer or science, and there trained roles, infantry/defence). If you look at the way modern Armies are progressing (Australian army in particular) we have everyone as a combatant, trained to fight with multiple weapons to a competency level of that of infantry at the very least but 90% of there career is a specialty role where they don't even see a gun except when retraining. Starfleet doesn't need a specialised Marine Corp if the majority of there mandate they aren't actually in any combative situations... The federation would have got to a point where they don't need to waste resources of maintaining a standing army that only has one role. Security and Tactical personnel more then covers the needs of limited defensive combat...

Enlisted men like Miles O'Brien tended to be the core combative group (because they are usually the people who only sign up for warfare and the experience, and they don't need to pass the strict Starfleet entry demands), at least at the time of the Cardassian war, in the last Klingon war we saw that every able person came under the command of a Marine type force when it was needed. You are no longer assigned to a ship but a battallion for the duration of the conflict.

AR-558 was another example of a situation where everyone was a combatant on top of there role at the Dominion Comm array. However logically there would have been a larger contingient of Tactical/Security personnel at the start of the holding action and the engineers were less likely to be wasting time with patrols or guard duty. Of course, when they lost all there personnel with no reinforcement in sight, they have to start thinking survival.

Max

StompDancer

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POSTS: 25

Report this Apr. 25 2005, 2:26 am

"All Starfleet would need are personnel who specialise in assault and tactical logistics on top of there normal duties."

No.  There is no way that the Federation could survive assaults/wars from the Romulans, Dominion, Borg, etc. without having specialized combat troops of some kind.  Dr. Soandso who might be somewhat handy with a phaser wouldn't cut it.  Neither would a certain Vulcan science officer whose specialty is science.

And I'm not talking about mere "security" personel (those guys you see in the shows and movies wearing the toned-down football gear)...I'm talking specialized combat troops as in that is all they train for.  Any time you cross departments you can never fully specialize like you could if you just trained in one.  This is why a doctor who is trained in combat can't compare with someone that that is the only thing they train in day in day out.

Too many episodes have shown a ship's counselor, engineer, etc. taking out highly trained (well, they're supposed to be hehe) enemy adversaries.  Realistically that is very VERY unlikely.

And not just realistically in my mind...the books are chock full of combat troops and their scenarios.  It's just that these troops are not at the forefront of the shows and episodes.  I remember in one book where Picard went on a mission with some of these troops.  He held his own to a point but more often than not they had to babysit him.  In his mind he even acknowledged this.

By no means am I saying that the average crew member isn't highly trained...my point is if they are not specific combat troops, then they won't be as highly trained in that area.

These characters wouldn't be your average ranked individual (like those characters who want to be an engineer, etc).  They would do their own thing.  Most of their ship time would probably be spent in quarters that they share with 3 or more other comrades while on their way to their next mission.  In short, they would have a whole other avenue as a character to pursue.  What does this mean?  Diversity in character development.

And this area of character development can play a vital role for players to work together.  Not just combat troops fighting together, but being transported to a mission by a ship run by engineers, doctors, science officers, etc.  The latter can get them there, provide logistical information for the mission (based on sensor information, etc), and even tag along on the mission to help along...again, and even hold their own in combat as well.

STOCaptain01

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POSTS: 1369

Report this Apr. 25 2005, 9:49 pm

Ok in the movies, you see people with those rifles? (like the First Contact) those are security. In this game a main prof is security/tactical so someone can specialize in that stuff.

MAXIMISE

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POSTS: 194

Report this Apr. 25 2005, 10:04 pm

Yeah I can't fathom why people don't understand that the Tacticle/Security people are the specialist in Combat. You don't need a seperate Marine for ce or anything. The security personnel aren't there to guard stuff, they are there to be good at repelling boarders, insertions and rescues.

Max

Jonbert

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Report this Apr. 25 2005, 10:08 pm

Ah, this is Star Trek, not Battlefield Vietnam. No marines, thanks ;)

Draymon

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POSTS: 40

Report this Apr. 25 2005, 10:27 pm

They could have the hazard squads from the elite force games (thats sort of canon maybe....)

ColonelGraff

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Report this Apr. 25 2005, 10:33 pm

Quote (Hdain @ April 25 2005, 7:27 pm)
They could have the hazard squads from the elite force games (thats sort of canon maybe....)

Sort of canon? lol... Some of the most fantastic books about Star Trek aren't considered canon, so some outfit out of some snidey game? No thanks :p It's either canon (appeared on the show) or it isn't :p and I doubt they'd be allowed to port 'Hazard Teams' over anyway, but the point is this- you don't need hazard teams, beacuse in TNG/DS9 era trek, that's what the Security/Tactical officers are trained for anyway!

Yes I agree sometimes it would make more sense to have a fully dedicated ground force of marines, but they don't- they have their multitasking security officers, thats the canon! The game doesnt have to be entirely canon but... but... marines sux0rz :P :D

Protoavis

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POSTS: 296

Report this Apr. 25 2005, 10:42 pm

I dont see much purpose for them, what do they do? Run around beat stuff up...thats productive to exploration and human advancement. The purpose of such a role in this GAME universe is largely redundant. What needs to be remembered is this is a game and not a simulation (similiar yes).

What would they do? train train train train, fight something off when it poses a threat, then train train train again. As going out there purely to fight something is not the human way, so its not going to be a blow fest.

StompDancer

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POSTS: 25

Report this Apr. 26 2005, 2:33 am

Let's put this in contemporary terms...

In today's armed forces, MP's and other security personel are highly trained...no doubt about that.  And of course, some are better than others.  Would you compare an MP to, say, Navy SEALs or Army Rangers as far as specializing in combat?  I would hope not.

But wait...you might say...this is Star Trek!  Yes it is!  Complete with scientists, explorers, merchants and even *gasp* a military.  A military that is outside of the "exploration ships armed with guns" concept.  However, the Federation is not mostly military...otherwise you'd have a Mirror Universe-style empire.

In short, a military exists, it just isn't insanely huge.  Those of you who don't like the idea...then don't play that type of character if they put it in the game.  It's that simple.  Those that want to play it will.  Most of this game will be combat-oriented anyway.  I can't even think of (if one even exists) an MMOG that doesn't have a form of combat as its core "fun factor".  EQ?  Level grind via fighting.  Matrix Online?  Matrix-style fighting.  Shadowbane?  PvP all the way.  STO?  Fighting aliens or each other :P.  Exploration will be fun, no doubt...but as someone else pointed out in another thread, the coolness factor will wear off after you visit your 10th nebula or 100th planet or charted your 389th anomaly.

Kinneas

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POSTS: 1877

Report this Apr. 26 2005, 3:06 am

Quote (ColonelGraff @ April 24 2005, 7:34 pm)
There will be no marines in Star Trek: Online

Whether there should be or shouldn't be is another argument that I really don't want to get into again :p



    Is that 100% fact, Graff???

  Because I don't believe it.

Protoavis

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POSTS: 296

Report this Apr. 26 2005, 3:26 am

StompDancer ever thought STO might be trying to break that mold? Just because every other MMO out there is gutted out and down to the lowest common denominator of battle does not mean that all MMO will stick to the mold.

After all, theres only so long before the standard mold for MMO becomes old and done.

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