Star Trek

Ok I just played a little of SWG again, and the more I do, the more I am hating it lol. In SWG there is way too much grinding to get to the next level. Plus the fact if you want to be a Jedi, they send you though the ringer, and your jumping though a lot of hoops too. And yes it's a ton of grinding there too. SWG has turned into too much work, no fun too me at all.

Ok on to STO.

I feel we can get away from tons of grinding in STO, from what I am hearing from the interviews, we can get our points just from the missions. That is cool with me, it's not the same type of kill this amd kill that grind you find in other games like SWG. It's more like do a missions, use your skills, and as you use your skills you gain points. Finish the mission and you gain bonus points. At least that is how I am seeing it. As long as STO doesn't turn into grinding work, I will be happy.

If you love to grind your points to get levels play SWG, if you don't then let PE know to keep the grind out of STO.

I've just recently watched a review for WoW on Gamespot.

The editor didn't have one bad word about it. The way WoW seams to have solved this is, If you do not wish to grind then you can spend time on your proffessions.  

 So you can go bash some rocks, or Knit things together. I'm currently contemplating getting WoW to see what its like, espacally after the Editor said and I quote "You really owe it to your self to give this a try, and I just feel sorry for those who don't."

Also from what I heard from the vid which I think is great, is to compensate and balance the power game to the casual gamer.  If you play for say half-hour then log out don't come back for a day, when u come back you gain a xp bonus for some time to balance it out.

same things could be done here. (Watch OUT! for the girl doing the macerania dance)

Link to the Video review for WoW. (top vid)

PE admin because i know you read these threads please do take a look at the video i mentioned. The reviewer is Greg Kasavin the Exec producer of Gamespot. I found from experiance if he says a game is good u can bank ur money on it. You more than likly be able to incorperate some of the things he mentions into both your mmogs

when i played WoW i did lots of grinding, it's there trust me, some professions are downright annoying too, like enchanting, and some professions which were mildly fun have since been bashed across the face with the nerf bat, like fishing.

I've stopped playing it now but i'll likely start again in a few months once they've implemented all the PvP goodies and done all their class nerfs and buffs hehe.

That said the grind doesn't seem so boring in WoW even for the usual hack'n'slash grind, i don't mind a grind to get to the next level just so long as it doesn't seem like a grind. The great thing with ST:O is it can't have the whole standard running around and hacking up wildlife type of gameplay for grind, we'll get something different which hopefully, will remain fresh and fun even after we've been doing it for a few hours.

Quote (Cormoran @ April 11 2005, 12:56 am)

when i played WoW i did lots of grinding, it's there trust me, some professions are downright annoying too, like enchanting, and some professions which were mildly fun have since been bashed across the face with the nerf bat, like fishing. I've stopped playing it now but i'll likely start again in a few months once they've implemented all the PvP goodies and done all their class nerfs and buffs hehe. That said the grind doesn't seem so boring in WoW even for the usual hack'n'slash grind, i don't mind a grind to get to the next level just so long as it doesn't seem like a grind. The great thing with ST:O is it can't have the whole standard running around and hacking up wildlife type of gameplay for grind, we'll get something different which hopefully, will remain fresh and fun even after we've been doing it for a few hours.

Well I've heard a rumor or lil secret about this game, I went to the Shop I told you about Kultashock. One of the People the owner is getting in was from the TNG and voyager series.

The person who played as Nelix, and the Ferengi in TNG. The Shop owner said that Nelix is somehow linked to this game as in providing content. Though thats me guessing, thats one of the things we be getting to ask him about.

Though that aside would you recomend wow, I still a lil uncertain about it. The proffessions seam well dull to me.

I'm currently playing WoW. It's a great game for the casual gamer. Say you can only squeeze in an hour, you can login, carry out a couple of the more straightforward quests, get some good loot to use or sell , then logout out.

Now with EQ2, which I also play, it's much tougher. You login and wander around wondering what you can do on your own for an hour before realising not much and logging out.

Just get rid of grinding.
People think how good WOW is now, think how much better it would be if they removed leveling full stop?
No more being ganked / ganking in lowbie areas
No forgetting of instance A when you get 1 level to high for it to still give you XP
Surley it must be easier to balance just an end game and have all content be end game so people don't have to worry about there not being an end game (cough WOW cough) than any other option

Quote (BiggN @ April 11 2005, 8:46 am)

Just get rid of grinding. People think how good WOW is now, think how much better it would be if they removed leveling full stop? No more being ganked / ganking in lowbie areas No forgetting of instance A when you get 1 level to high for it to still give you XP Surley it must be easier to balance just an end game and have all content be end game so people don't have to worry about there not being an end game (cough WOW cough) than any other option

What they said about SWG. that game is not a level grind game and look where its ended up

I will be skeptical about grinding always, it tends to happen a lot. I do have a bit more faith in ST:O, though, as teamwork does seem to be a big part of things. Grinding is much more fun if you do it with friends.

In my eyes, it all depends on what sort of missions Perpetual has ships do. If there is an interesting variety that can be dynamically mixed to make sure missions don't turn into grinds, I believe it could work out. If admirals generate them, that would be even better! You know, if Perpetual can incorporate the big picture, I think that would work perfectly.

Think about it. In most games you just kill monsters or whatever with no real result. Sure, it's dead, but it'll just come back later. In Star Trek: Online, there is a massive potential for the bigger picture. A crewman is fixing an EPS conduit so that the phasers can get power so that the tactical  officer can fire on an enemy ship so that an important person can be captured so that they can be interrogated so that they can reveal the location of a base so that Starfleet can have a tactical advantage. There is a big potential for thinking, "Hey, what I'm doing is benefitting all of these people! I make a difference!" That thinking may be all that is necessary to get rid of the thought of a grind. Keeping the bigger picture in mind and making that really stick out.

Quote

"What they said about SWG. that game is not a level grind game and look where its ended up"

lol
Whats your point?
That not leveling can't save a game?
The reason SWG failed is because "not having content can't save a game"

Quote (Nitebot @ April 11 2005, 7:41 am)

I'm currently playing WoW. It's a great game for the casual gamer. Say you can only squeeze in an hour, you can login, carry out a couple of the more straightforward quests, get some good loot to use or sell , then logout out. Now with EQ2, which I also play, it's much tougher. You login and wander around wondering what you can do on your own for an hour before realising not much and logging out.

If you don't know (or can't find) what to do in EQII, then you aren't paying attention to the patch notes. There are NPCs everywhere now that offer soloable and duoable quests. My quest queue never falls under 30 quests that are just under or slightly over my level. Many, many things have changed to make the game more fun and casual-friendly, including rested experience bonuses that don't make you log out in a city to attain and offline selling.

I'm not an EQII fanboi, but they are getting lots and lots more right these days. That being said, I am in love with the idea I quoted below by BiggN. It's something that I have been envisioning for STO.

Quote (BiggN @ April 11 2005, 8:46 am)

Just get rid of grinding. People think how good WOW is now, think how much better it would be if they removed leveling full stop? No more being ganked / ganking in lowbie areas No forgetting of instance A when you get 1 level to high for it to still give you XP Surley it must be easier to balance just an end game and have all content be end game so people don't have to worry about there not being an end game (cough WOW cough) than any other option.

Very well said. A stun setting still drops any other player. A kill shot still sends them to the infirmary. Everyone has passable skill in everything, but there's still room for specialization. Love it.

planetside if pretty much the best example of unnoticable grinding from what i can tell.

shoot get xp, non of that "i fired before you ran around the wall so its still gonna hit u" stuff.  Unfortunately that quote is still true with the MMO bcuz the game uses an old engine which calculates like a turn-based but its all first/third person shooting.

Quote (Tal_Shiar_Officer @ April 11 2005, 9:32 am)

I will be skeptical about grinding always, it tends to happen a lot.

That it does.  I've been reading opinions in a variety of different places, and most all players say something similar.  They hate wht they call, "The Grind".

Oddly enough, I also get the impression they are ultimately responsible for this.  These people tend to be in the majority of those who play most of the major MMOGs.  They are goal oriented achieving type players.  They set high goals for themselves and then choose to grind away to achieve those goals.

The game designers seem to realize these players are happiest when they have such goals to work/grind towards.  So they in turn set up the game for this style of play.  Its a tough cycle to break out of.

The major problems this causes for the game is when the increasing levels cause the game mechanics to break down, it tends to separate the players by levels, and when the players reach the level cap they win and probably wont be staying around long term.  They achieved their goal(s), so time to move on to the next big game.

For these types of players, I suspect they would also hate to arrive to a game late.  After all, those who arrive first and have the most time to play will win the game first.  So that removes some of the incentive for such players.  They may not be as apt to leave the current game where they can still compete for a new game where they may not have a chance.

When you sit down and try and design a game to remove the boring work/grind involved, you tend to end up with a game that may not provide the sort of challenges and goals that the majority of these types of players are looking for.  Fortunately with Star Trek:  Online (ST:O), these players will probably set goals that are a bit different.  Instead of level and experience being important, rank, position and ship type may be more important.

This is great, now the adventures/missions are more important than working at a boring repetitive task or hunting mindlessly for hours on end.  This is especially true if the mission is the key to the experience.  Complete the mission and gain experience based on how you handled it.  Now players are working together to achieve a goal and it isn't the same mindless repetitive task over and over again.  Instead of the next monster to slay over and over again, we look forward to the next mission.  This provides much more variety and a far greater level of player interaction.

I suspect as long as big money is involved many new games wont want to risk turning away the majority of players who avidly seek out such challenges that can be overcome by, "The Grind".

Personally I don't like to design a situation that forces a player how they choose to play a game.  On the other hand, how a system is designed can have a big influence on how the players choose to play the game.  As long as there are ways to work/grind your way towards a goal, there will be players who choose to do so, and then complain about it later, especially if that is the only way to reach the goal.   :o

The best solution is to provide alternatives that avoid this work/grind to reach a goal.  To completely solve the problem, the alternative has to be considered the best/easiest method for reaching that goal.  Then if some folks still want to go the hard way working mindlessly towards that goal, who am I to complain?

My impression is that Star Trek: Online is headed in the right direction, but I don't know many details about the game at this point either.  Fortunately, with a science fiction based game it should be easier to promote a different style of play, and being based on Star Trek probably helps as well.


Now if only the Fantasy Role Playing Games could break out of this cycle as easily.   :p

Quote (BiggN @ April 11 2005, 2:46 am)

Just get rid of grinding. People think how good WOW is now, think how much better it would be if they removed leveling full stop? No more being ganked / ganking in lowbie areas No forgetting of instance A when you get 1 level to high for it to still give you XP Surley it must be easier to balance just an end game and have all content be end game so people don't have to worry about there not being an end game (cough WOW cough) than any other option

It would be nice if they made the skill system something like Eve Online. No actual levels, just hundreds of skills to improve.

I really hope they take a look at EVE-online, the skill system there is great. But then I'm hoping for this to be EVE-online, star trek style