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Saluting in Starfleet

PerpetualAdmin

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Report this Jan. 06 2005, 1:03 pm

One of our designers mentioned to me the other day that they don't Salute in Starfleet. Apparently is it out of style in the 24th century military.

We looked through some of the videos and found some ironic and exaggerated salutes, but nothing serious.

Can any of you remember an episode where people seriously and honestly salute each other in Star Fleet with the hand to the forhead? (rather than the klingon chest slam)
- Mitch

munky99999

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Report this Jan. 06 2005, 1:34 pm

Well Klingons is the "chest slam"
Vulcans the split fingers that was made from the Hebrew letters. Silly Lenny Nimoy.
I think feds use handshake more then salute.
honestly
I think TNG season 2 had some saluting to a dead ship is all i can think of.

BeerMeal

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Report this Jan. 06 2005, 1:36 pm

I can't think of any saluting.  Just some standing at attention.

munky99999

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Report this Jan. 06 2005, 1:37 pm

lots of standing at attention if you include Nog

Jonbert

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Report this Jan. 06 2005, 2:08 pm

How about the scene in The Undiscovered Country when a rescue plan is being submitted to the president, I don't recall it brilliantly, but was there a salute from Colonel West then? That's all I can think of, indeed.

I think this is due to the fact that Starfleet don't like to think of themselves as a military organisation (aside from the fact they fly around in heavily armed starships, wear uniforms, use a military ranking structure and such, lol). Many a time we do see them rebuke being considered Military, I guess the salute went out with that.

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JazH

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Report this Jan. 06 2005, 3:10 pm

There is that "flute" thing they play when they play to new admirals coming aboard..or when someone dies..

Netopalis781

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Report this Jan. 06 2005, 4:32 pm

Starfleet is more civilian that military.  I guess you could call them a paramilitary - Starfleet does have guns and all, but not so they can be considered even a B Grade military - mostly for shooting back when people attack them (and they sometimes don't even shoot back, they just send messages asking for peace.)  I guess you could call them the Boy Scouts with a few phasers and big starships with guns.

Federation doesnt even have a military - when I look at the discipline with Starfleet and how lax it is, it makes me sick.  I do like Star Trek, I just disapprove of how, well, "feminine" or "liberal" (NOT saying the two are synonyms) teh Federation is in its defense.

Jonbert

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Report this Jan. 06 2005, 4:58 pm

How on Earth is Starfleet more civilian than military? The Federation does have a military and it is called Starfleet.

Militarised Ranking structure.
Armed personell
Heavily armed Starships (and I don't sucumb to Starfleet's 'Defense' propaganda- the US calls it's military 'Defense' too)
Judge Advocate General law system
Seperate education system to the state

Amongst others.

The Federation are a highly socialist (some even consider it communist) organistation anyway, they control all assets (when was the last time you saw branding, privately owned spacecraft or an independant news network)

I don't see what the big problem is, it's fine to have a 'military' for the defence of your assets and your people, in Star Trek there seems to be something dirty about the very word...

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Daybreak

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Report this Jan. 06 2005, 5:00 pm

I'd think that it was part of Gene Roddenberry's overall vision of starfleet to portray it as a largely exploratory, diplomatic and scientific organization rather than a military one.  He didn't want Starfleet to represent the U.S. military in how TOS made reference to the political climate of the time.

Netopalis781

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Report this Jan. 06 2005, 5:14 pm

Quote (Jonbert @ Jan. 06 2005, 1:58 pm)
How on Earth is Starfleet more civilian than military? The Federation does have a military and it is called Starfleet.

Militarised Ranking structure.
Armed personell
Heavily armed Starships (and I don't sucumb to Starfleet's 'Defense' propaganda- the US calls it's military 'Defense' too)
Judge Advocate General law system
Seperate education system to the state

Amongst others.

The Federation are a highly socialist (some even consider it communist) organistation anyway, they control all assets (when was the last time you saw branding, privately owned spacecraft or an independant news network)

I don't see what the big problem is, it's fine to have a 'military' for the defence of your assets and your people, in Star Trek there seems to be something dirty about the very word...

Yes, but its very lax. No saluting, Cadets have all the freedom in the world, and their ships are hardly heavily armed - they can hardly deal with outlaws in some episodes. I would just call them armed, thats it.

Enterprise D was the flagship, and there was no battlefleet to escort or accomany it.  Any respectable military would have it surrounded by a huge battlegroup.

They have no marines, no army, and you never see their ships patrol in large battle groups.

Jonbert

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Report this Jan. 06 2005, 5:21 pm

Hardly heavily armed? Come on, Starfleet's biggest ships carry hundreds of multi megaton torpedoes and have tens of phaser strips and they have almost ANY ship in the Alpha Quadrant fearing a battle with them. They might not have physical saluting now but they have a very organised rank structure which everyone adheres to, officers of a higher rank are still addressed as Sir/Ma'am and NCO's still stand to attention when a senior officer comes on deck.

They might not operate exactly like a military of today does, but they do have large battle groups- during conflict, just like ours- and just like our current military, single capital ships do go off alone more than they are part of a group. There really is no denying that Starfleet IS a military organisation, we can argue the intracacies all day, but that would be taking this thread a little off topic. I guess there is no saluting because as Daybreak said Roddenberry initially wanted to desensitise the idea that Starfleet was a military given real world conditions back then.

Where does this idea come from, just because Starfleet isn't an offensive force, it doesn't meant hey aren't a military one.

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JazH

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Report this Jan. 06 2005, 5:37 pm

ITs also a scientific, intelligence, research and diplomatic organisation...

Jonbert

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Report this Jan. 06 2005, 5:39 pm

Quote (JazH @ Jan. 06 2005, 2:37 pm)
ITs also a scientific, intelligence, research and diplomatic organisation...

I can accept that it is also those things too, I am not labelling it a primarily military organisation by any means, but it is one, as well as the those things you list.

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Daybreak

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Report this Jan. 06 2005, 5:45 pm

Apparently, there was a manual written by Gene Roddenberry in 1987.  Writers/Director's guide to writing Trek  

You might want to nab a copy of this if you don't have one.  It probably contains information about saluting among a host of other stuff probably none of us thought to ask.

Ellessar

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Report this Jan. 06 2005, 8:14 pm

Quote (PerpetualAdmin @ Jan. 06 2005, 10:03 am)
One of our designers mentioned to me the other day that they don't Salute in Starfleet. Apparently is it out of style in the 24th century military.

We looked through some of the videos and found some ironic and exaggerated salutes, but nothing serious.

Can any of you remember an episode where people seriously and honestly salute each other in Star Fleet with the hand to the forhead? (rather than the klingon chest slam)
- Mitch

[QUOTE]

I'm a long time trek fan and I have been in the US Navy for a long time.  Starfleet is the most non-military organization around.  By US military standards Starfleet is more akin to a police department in regementation and discipline.  

I never remember any serious saluting in trek.  Nor any serious standing at attention either.  As for what you call the chest slam that is actually known as a half-salute in the military.  It is still used in the modern military.  You see half-salutes in the modern military from gate-gaurds at militarty instilations to all enlisted personel.  You also see half-salutes rendered if you are carrying a weapon at right shoulder arms.  

Paramilitary is not an accurate description of Starfleet.  Paramilitary is akin to militia.  Paramilitary units are those made up of civilians that fight alongside or in place of regular military units.  Starfleet members are not civilians.    

As for the battle group comments.  The battle group exists to protect the HUV (high value unit) in the fleet.  The reason modern Navies use battle groups is mainly because the Air-Craft Carrier (at least in the past) could not adaquatly defend itself against surface naval vessels.  The might of a carrier is mainly its air wing and without it it is highly vulnerable.  Starfleet does not have this issue.  A galaxy clas vessel can defend itself and does not need support of a battle group.  Hence there are no battle groups.   Additionally the battle group exists to bring assests to the fight that a carrier does not have mainly the ability to fire TLAMs (cruise missiles) these days.  So not having your flag ship excorted by a battle group in Starfleet is reasonable.

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