Star Trek *crosses fingers*

crosses fingers

BeerMeal

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Report this Dec. 18 2004, 6:11 pm

We're not talking about PvP.

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Oh gee lets get this guy click .wait for it damn I missed ok click ..wait for it damn . Oh yeah thats sooooo exhilarating. Give me a break!

That sounds like FPS to me. MMOs you hit tab or something to select an enemy. I'm not sure why people think you have to click on something. FPS is the clicky style.

Eagler

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Report this Dec. 18 2004, 7:02 pm

The problem with the turn based/stat based system is that the players who have an enormous amount of time to sink into the game will invariably be better. Those of us with many things taking up time are screwed over, even if we are good at the game. Sure, twitch requires experience and reflexes, but then again, isn't that the definition of skill? And what's bad with rewarding skill? However, a completely skill based system would allow for some unrealistic situations, so the best way to go is a hybrid system.

BeerMeal

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Report this Dec. 18 2004, 8:41 pm

People with an enormous amount of time to sink into the game will just reach the end game faster. People without as much time to spend on the game will skill/level up slower, but they can eventually get there.

The difference with twitch is that only some people will be good and others will be bad. There's nothing the bad players can really do. Some people just can't play twitch and will always be frustrated by it. Any hybrid system is going to be the same way.

The key is that with a skill/level based system, every single player has the same opportunity to develop their character to the very top.

Aiten

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Report this Dec. 19 2004, 4:56 am

end of the game? are you aware there is no end of the game? ... ever!?

hmmm you said that Combat was the minority in MMO's. The Daedalus project is pretty much the resource everyone goes too for MMO research. Have a look around there, it becomes really interesting?
Daedalus Project

Any, back on topic. PE has already stated that ST:O will be more action orientated than the older MMO's, and we hope it will break the mould in that respect. Turn based combat if a good system for low level internet users & melee combat. There is no worries about that. Here is the problem, we are talking about a game that will be working til 2012 minimum, imgaine the leaps and bound in technology then. There is not the technical worries that plagued development 10 years ago, which is why the turn based system evolved.

Secondly, melee combat does not really appear in Star Trek that often, and there has been no information on options PE are looking into (if there will be melee combat at all!

, so assume ranged combat will be the primary key focus in combat (not of the game). Real Time combat really works in that situation, and it is the best method if you have the infastructure too support the system. We actually have the infastructure now, let alone in 3-4 years time.

Whilst we have no idea about which system they will use yet, its probally a lost cause asking for an obsolete system.
PS I suck at turn-based systems, and I know im not the only one that hates them, why do you think there are lots of non-combat proffessions in games? Yet they all play Half-Life 2 etc. I know people enjoy being a doctor or such, but im sure a bad combat system is a factor in their decsion.

Renor

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Report this Dec. 19 2004, 11:55 am

Quote (Aiten @ Dec. 19 2004, 1:56 am)

, so assume ranged combat will be the primary key focus in combat (not of the game). Real Time combat really works in that situation, and it is the best method if you have the infastructure too support the system...

Combat itself dosen't really appear that often in Star Trek. In fact it's focus has always been on finding the peaceful resolution to a situation, with Combat used as a last resort.

I hope ST:O follows suit. I would like to see this game change the face of MMORPGs by showing we can have a RPG without it fallling to the "see cow...kill cow" routine that is used in every other MMORPG. Combat should not be the mainstay of the game, rather exploration, diplomacy, and science should be. And if this is the case, the best way to maintain the Star Trek feel would be to make Combat be in the FPS style. If you have ever played Elite Force, you know what I mean. Of course I also don't believe we should have any PvP until we see Factions outside of the Federation, so the need to "level the playing field" isn't really needed.

Now all this is my opinion, and I'm sure others differ. But somehow having turn-based Phaser Combat seems a bit strange and to me would carry that horrible repetitious feeling that so many other RPGs (MMO, and single player) have.

Tal_Shiar_Officer

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Report this Dec. 19 2004, 12:29 pm

I agree with you mostly. Combat should not be the expected mainstay of the game, meaning that people shouldn't be expected to take part in combat missions to advance. I do believe, though, that if players desire it, they should be able to pick up combat missions and make it a mainstay. Those who prefer more peaceful and diplomatic missions take more peaceful and diplomatic missions.

Personally, I would like the more peaceful and diplomatic missions.

BeerMeal

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Report this Dec. 19 2004, 2:26 pm

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hmmm you said that Combat was the minority in MMO's.

I said the Killer player type is the minority, not combat.

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There is no worries about that. Here is the problem, we are talking about a game that will be working til 2012 minimum, imgaine the leaps and bound in technology then. There is not the technical worries that plagued development 10 years ago, which is why the turn based system evolved.

MMOs are not turn based. They are skill/level based. The combat is still real-time. You're thinking of Final Fantasy or something, and MMO combat is nothing like that. This type of system didn't evolve because of technology problems. It evolved because it's the only viable way of giving players an equal opportunity to advance their characters. Any system involving the player's skill rather than the character's skill is inherently unfair.

Renor

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Report this Dec. 19 2004, 3:27 pm

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...MMOs are not turn based. They are skill/level based. The combat is still real-time...

...This type of system didn't evolve because of technology problems. It evolved because it's the only viable way of giving players an equal opportunity to advance their characters. Any system involving the player's skill rather than the character's skill is inherently unfair.

This is so very true, and yet another reason why Combat should not be the driving force behind advancing Characters. It should help some, but not be the "lion's share" of how you gain expierence. Star Trek is not about Combat, it's about finding ways to avoid such an outcome.

And if Combat is secondary, then it should be less desireable to do (ie. easier to lose out, harder to perfect, etc.). And for that I think FPS style Combat seems most appropriate, that and it stresses speed/action (which gives it a very Trek feel), over Combat planning and strategy. Battle planning and strategy may be good in some games, but in one where Combat is not the primary focus you might want to eliminate promoting various aspects of it.

Now of course that has to do with Ground Combat, Starship Combat should probably be handled differently (since even in Star Trek, Combat in space takes place more often then not). Either using standard MMORPG Combat, or a more Turn-Based version.

Saelice

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Report this Dec. 19 2004, 6:27 pm

I like the hybrid system being talked about, also the fact that yes, the game should not be combat-driven. At least not for Starfleet, that isnt what starfleet is about.

Lets say :bored:

<< these guys board your starship. You and your crew have had it for a long time and wish to defend it. In the current MMPORG system, target, attack, target, attack, im sorry, gets boring. Every MMPORG that I have left was because the combat system down right sucked.

Now, in the 'twitch,' system, as people seem to be calling it, player skill completly over-rides character skill... taking out a big portion of RPG'ing out of the game, and I am not for this either. Although I do think this would be fun to play, I would not call it an RPG.

ALLTTTHHHOOOUUUGGHHHH, The hybrid system that is being talked about, if worked out correctly, could be an amazing leap in online gaming. When the Character is first created, in the academy (as I have read being developed) aiming is not very good. When graduated, aiming of standard federation weapons (that of which would be learned in the academy) would be standard, straight towards the center of the screen. As the weapons are used, auto aim ~slowley~ kicks in. Though weapons that were not taught in the academy do not aim properly, and need training by the player

Aiten

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Report this Dec. 19 2004, 7:31 pm

Just because you take away monotomy and add in player skill does not mean this wont be an RPG. I plan to Role Play a Priest, I did it in Star Wars, and too be honest, was the most fun role ive ever played!?

Saelice

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Report this Dec. 19 2004, 7:38 pm

yes, i know, but it takes out a part of it. I should re-word, I would call it an RPG yet it would take out a part of the game to have it automated, and would take out a part to make it 100% twitch... focusing on the combat part of the multipule points this game shall probably hold, of course.

BeerMeal

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Report this Dec. 19 2004, 11:18 pm

I'm afraid that any system involving player skill would be susceptible to client-side hacks. Anything with "twitch" is going to involve the client. Any number of bots could be devised. Any hybrid system where aiming is inaccurate when skill is low can be defeated by a client hack.

Standard MMO character skill combat systems can be done on the server side which is much more secure.

Aiten

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Report this Dec. 20 2004, 10:05 am

Irrelivant.

Maybe when secrity was a minor issue, but we are talking about a time when security is one of our highest priorities, therefore most of this has been tackled!
Does SWG:JTL twitch system not work then?
Does Neocron always fall prey too such attacks?
Hey, what about when you run from a town to another, shall we automate that?

Whether you realise it or not, real time gameplay is already used in everygame from walking to racing! Combat is the last barrier to overcome and it has the exact same problems as theothers, but these niggles have been ironed out.

Anyway, you are talking as if we are going too have one shot kills and worried about that? Never going too happen, I expect the system PE will decide on too take into account

* Damage
* Rate of Fire
* Accuracy (Stat and where your pointed)
* Type of weapon
* Reload/Recharge time

and many other serverside issues, remember hardly anything but the actual game will be stored clientside. If you have a turbo mouse button, you wont shoot 1000x a second, your characters skill will only allow for 1 shot every 3 seconds etc.

BeerMeal

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Report this Dec. 20 2004, 1:43 pm

Combat is already real time in MMOs. They just rely on the character's skill rather than the player's. This is the way it should be.

I'm not afraid of one hit kills. I'm afraid of the entire game turning into an FPS style when combat should have very little significance.

BeerMeal

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Report this Dec. 20 2004, 3:04 pm

If I have to move crosshairs to a target and click to fire, that's FPS. It doesn't matter if there's a hybrid system in the background calculating damage or accuracy. It's still a first person shooter, and it still relies on player's skill.

It's usually not as simple as moving a cursor to an NPC anyway. There's crouching, strafing, jumping, etc. that takes a lot of talent to do well.

Having FPS in a game where combat should be a small portion doesn't make sense. Imagine if The Sims was FPS. Would that make any sense?