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STO: The CareBear Game?

JazH

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POSTS: 1849

Report this Dec. 05 2004, 7:30 pm

Is STO set to be a carebear game? From the likes of the FAQ/interviews/forum posts it seems to me that the game will shape out to be a very limited PvP environment, one-faction peaceful SP concentrated game.

Evenmoreso, with the lack of currency in the game, which is extremely likely now there will be no compeition for goods, even loot..

Is this game going to be full of MMORPG n00bs and victamize the general mmo players who have been dying for the moment to pvp as a romulan against the growing federation empire?

The live launch is always the makeorbreak for every mmo...and which the liklihood of factions and pvp going to be in an expansion who will actually bother playing a half-Star-Trek game? which I might add have been a regular occurance with games under Activision.

This is not a deliberate attack on the game or anything, just from the information given to us by perpetual points me in this direction, which also continues to aggrevate my misgivings of having perpetual an unknown company making Star Trek's longawaited MMORPG

Tal_Shiar_Officer

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POSTS: 1652

Report this Dec. 05 2004, 7:47 pm

I could see someone playing it carebear. I could imagine how the lack of serious PvP at launch might make it like that, but then again there are always military missions. From my experience, it seems like players enjoy cooperating. That may last long enough to tide people over to the expansion.

mechagrover

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POSTS: 261

Report this Dec. 05 2004, 8:25 pm

It boils down to who they want to aim the game at.

If they go full-bore PvP then the gamers who like Trek will have fun and the game will do well...until the "next big thing" is released. This will net them a lot of sales, but short subscriptions.

If they go for complete sim-type Trek RP then they will have a long-lasting game that will appeal to Trek fans who also like games, but not as many players. This will result in weak shelf sales but long-lasting subscribers.

To be the most successful (keep in mond this is a money-making company) they need to find the perfect balance to appeal to both gamers who like Trek and Trekkies who like games. It will have to stick to Trek lore to appeal to the die-hard fans, as well as offer fun combat for the action enthusiasts. I hope they don't fall into the trap of giving the players EVERYTHING they want, like some games have done *cough* SWG jedi horde *cough* and stick to making it as close to living in the Trek universe as possible.

If they do it right, I can see this game lasting longer than some of the other MMORPGs out there by a long shot.

BeerMeal

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POSTS: 310

Report this Dec. 05 2004, 9:03 pm

Only a PvPer would call a non-PvP game "carebear".  I think that's an unfair term.

You might call STO a mature game.  Star Trek was a mature television show when it was perceived by Roddenberry.  It always had some sort of moral lesson underlying each episode's story.

It's unfortunate that a vocal minority steers the way games are developed.  I'd hate to see a Star Trek MMO end up being nothing more than a PvP space arena.  If you open up STO to faction PvP and twitch or FPS type combat, it will be a gankfest.  No reason to play except blow stuff up.

IonParticle

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POSTS: 9

Report this Dec. 05 2004, 9:32 pm

PvP is an essential part of all games. There are many people who play PvP. Go read some of the World of WarCraft journals, one battle can gather almost a hundred or more partipants.

Perpetual cannot ignore this crowd. Just because there will be PvP does not mean all you do is blow stuff up, there are plenty of stories suitable for battles.

STO should follow what WoW did. They had different types of servers that cater to different people.
Normal - Limited, consentual PvP.
PvP - Complete PvP.

Some WoW journals:
http://www.worldofwar.net/journals/index.php?id=989
http://www.worldofwar.net/journals/index.php?id=1046
http://www.worldofwar.net/journals/index.php?id=1040
http://www.worldofwar.net/journals/index.php?id=996

Admiral_Patrick

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POSTS: 462

Report this Dec. 05 2004, 11:06 pm

Quote (IonParticle @ Dec. 04 2004, 8:32 pm)
PvP is an essential part of all games. There are many people who play PvP. Go read some of the World of WarCraft journals, one battle can gather almost a hundred or more partipants.

Perpetual cannot ignore this crowd. Just because there will be PvP does not mean all you do is blow stuff up, there are plenty of stories suitable for battles.

STO should follow what WoW did. They had different types of servers that cater to different people.
Normal - Limited, consentual PvP.
PvP - Complete PvP.

Some WoW journals:
http://www.worldofwar.net/journals/index.php?id=989
http://www.worldofwar.net/journals/index.php?id=1046
http://www.worldofwar.net/journals/index.php?id=1040
http://www.worldofwar.net/journals/index.php?id=996

I can't really say that that was an original idea from Blizzard (Not many things in WoW are), but he is right. That is probably what they will end up doing in Star Trek, because that is what they have done in every other MMORPG. No matter how much I want them to think of something new and original, the different types of servers will work fine. I think they should spend their time working on the actual elements of PvP rather than worrying about who does it where. I'm a firm believer that if you make PvP fun, you can enable it almost everywhere because it will be....(be careful spoiler about how MMORPGs are meant to be played) FUN!

Effect

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POSTS: 58

Report this Dec. 05 2004, 11:16 pm

PvP is NOT an essential part of all games. One of the most successful MMORPG series and one of the most popular is I'd say 98% non-PVP. Everquest.

The thing about people that call non-PVP games carebear games that I've found that they tend to be those that love to simply kill for no reason. It isn't the competition(you can have tons of competition in a game without killing another players). If that was the case they wouldn't be against structured PvP.

I've noitced that those that use the term carebear, majority of the people I've come across, tend to like games like the original Ultima Online or Shadowbane(open PvP on anyone and everyone, peopel tend to wait outside of towns to kill people or go to low level areas just to kill new players). There are some great PvP faction games out there like Anarchy Online, Dark Age of Camelot, Star Wars Galaxies, and I thinK World of Warcraft will have some decent Pvp faction action.

Yet those(not all but a good deal) that seem to use the term carebear from what I've seen don't like to play these games. Either they don't like the structure, the fairness(different degress) of the setup, having to work as a team with other players, etc. Most likely don't like these games cause they can't go around killing everyone and anyone one. THey enjoy the open pvp which is simply Pking due to certain people.

STO can have no PvP for all I care. I want a mature game. One that will draw me into the Star Trek universe. A game that will provide exploration, challenges in terms of puzzles, quest, missions. A game that will allow me to socialize with my fellow players. Star Trek a series about who I can destory next. Its always been about coming to together for the greater good, violence is need at times but never has been the main focus of the show. Notice all a lot of episodes is mainly about character interaction? That's what Trek is about. Space battles and phaser fights are cool though and I'd like to have those in there but I don't want the game to be ruined by PvP.

One of the most difficult things to do in a MMORPG is balance it for PvE(player vs. environment) and PvP(player vs. player). The same setup against the game won't work against other players cause players will complain things are unfair and then nerfs to characaters will take place.

If there must be PvP I hope its on certain servers and the changes made to it don't effect other servers. Let things being unbalanced when it comes to PvP combat that way the other players aren't screwed over.

In every game though, the amount of people that like PvE the most(though they do enjoy a little PvP if its setup correctly(guild vs guild or faction vs faction)) greatly outnumbers those that perfer open PvP(no rules which allows for ganking, pking(the people that enjoy killing others over and over again cause it makes them feel good about making the playing experience for others a horrible one.)).

This is just my opinion in the end. I just HATE the world carebear when its used like this. I never got why it was used anyway. Don't the carebears fight in their shows? They may not draw blood but do fight against the bad guys to save the good.

Personally I like PvP when its structured. AO, DAoC, and SWG but I can do without it and dislike it if it means other aspects of the game will suffer in any way, shape or form.

flibble1701

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POSTS: 480

Report this Dec. 06 2004, 9:04 am

great post effect couldnt agree with you more

all out pvp is a no no all it leads to is grefing plain and simple dont believe me go play on a daoc pvp server nothing but a gankfest and totally crap taken the whole fun out of the game on that server

you say mmorpg are about pvp ?
no there not there about interaction and cooperation massive multiplayer online roleplaying game

i know what ya saying admiral but i think its a little unfair to judge the game at such an early stage lets be honest we have no idea how the game is going progress in this area.

im currently playing eq2 and loving it, wanna know why? because i aint in a rush to get to max lvl so i can go pvp i can take it easy get to know new ppl and have a laugh
as for no challenge oh dear
daoc: my guild decided to take down legion a uber boss in the depths of darkness falls we got over 10 groups thats 80 ppl to come and take him down the feeling was fantastic and there was a great sense of community when he fell everyone going w00t pwned etc there on yells of victory was pretty chuffed that day
eq:read a new article about how 3 guilds who had been at each others throat for years came together to do the impossible and take down the hardest mob in the game
swg: was doing the imperial themepark (im a fan of the expanded universe) and i ran into captain thrawn and mara jade it was brilliant to know that sony had dipped into the expanded universe i then went on a massive exploration for about a motnh just finding things as for pvp in swg i hated it and still do

hope these examples make it easier for you to understand why we dont need all out pvp games can be fun without it or a limited amount of it.

Admiral_Patrick

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POSTS: 462

Report this Dec. 06 2004, 9:14 am

Quote (flibble1701 @ Dec. 05 2004, 8:04 am)
great post effect couldnt agree with you more

all out pvp is a no no all it leads to is grefing plain and simple dont believe me go play on a daoc pvp server nothing but a gankfest and totally crap taken the whole fun out of the game on that server

you say mmorpg are about pvp ?
no there not there about interaction and cooperation massive multiplayer online roleplaying game

i know what ya saying admiral but i think its a little unfair to judge the game at such an early stage lets be honest we have no idea how the game is going progress in this area.

im currently playing eq2 and loving it, wanna know why? because i aint in a rush to get to max lvl so i can go pvp i can take it easy get to know new ppl and have a laugh
as for no challenge oh dear
daoc: my guild decided to take down legion a uber boss in the depths of darkness falls we got over 10 groups thats 80 ppl to come and take him down the feeling was fantastic and there was a great sense of community when he fell everyone going w00t pwned etc there on yells of victory was pretty chuffed that day
eq:read a new article about how 3 guilds who had been at each others throat for years came together to do the impossible and take down the hardest mob in the game
swg: was doing the imperial themepark (im a fan of the expanded universe) and i ran into captain thrawn and mara jade it was brilliant to know that sony had dipped into the expanded universe i then went on a massive exploration for about a motnh just finding things as for pvp in swg i hated it and still do

hope these examples make it easier for you to understand why we dont need all out pvp games can be fun without it or a limited amount of it.

So your vote is for a strong emphasis on cooperative play. Do you also agree that there should be certain PvP servers so that the griefers can't complain?

Daybreak

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POSTS: 652

Report this Dec. 06 2004, 9:20 am

Quote
Only a PvPer would call a non-PvP game "carebear".  I think that's an unfair term.

You might call STO a mature game.  Star Trek was a mature television show when it was perceived by Roddenberry.  It always had some sort of moral lesson underlying each episode's story.

It's unfortunate that a vocal minority steers the way games are developed.  I'd hate to see a Star Trek MMO end up being nothing more than a PvP space arena.  If you open up STO to faction PvP and twitch or FPS type combat, it will be a gankfest.  No reason to play except blow stuff up.


This is precisely what we need to avoid, I could not agree with the voices that say 'take that carebear term and shove it'.

I'm positive that player-driven empire vs empire conflict will come in time, with the expansion of player races into Romulans, Klingons and Cardassians.  To do less would be to miss out on a huge money-making aspect of the game.

Perpetual, don't listen to that ever-so-vocal minority.  Stick to your vision and make this a project that does justice to Gene Roddenberry's creation.  Don't turn this into another mmog clone of 'kill-ding' over and over and over again...  There are hundreds of thousands of people who would love to play this game but don't know that it even is being developed yet.  The silent masses are your first target audience, not the youthful 'blow-crap-up' generation.

Conversely, there is and should be a place for combat in ST:O.  By allowing players to choose their mission types on a per-mission basis allows them to engage in combat as often as they choose.  So yes, they can have their combat game but we don't have to be involved in it if we choose not to be.

flibble1701

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POSTS: 480

Report this Dec. 06 2004, 9:24 am

no id prefer the griefers wouldnt play at all im not sayin no to pvp at all im just saying to have full blown pvp at release is a mistake as far as we know we get the federation only if you could have a game where you could shoot other federation ships you will lose

trek fans
non pvpers
crafters
as opposed to if you didnt have pvp you would lose
pvpers

its 3-1

yes i want strong cooperation in the game thats why i play these games its a sense of belonging and cooperation you cant get on most other games
now whether its in pvp or pve i dont care
but i also want to believe in the universe im playing in it has to fit in with star trek canon doing what is suggested here would blow canon out the water well and truly and in the ends destroy the game maybe a year or 2 down the line when they can afford it release a pvp server yeah it will be popular at first give it a month or 2 and it will be minimum population same thing happened in daoc.

Admiral_Patrick

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POSTS: 462

Report this Dec. 06 2004, 9:26 am

I would love it if they would incorporate a FPS element of the game. They can limit it so it isn't so much of a gank fest as it is in solely FPS games, but if you could find a way to incorporate a FPS into an MMORPG, It would be amazing.

flibble1701

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POSTS: 480

Report this Dec. 06 2004, 9:32 am

it worked well in planetside but that was full blown pvp the combat issue is still heavily debated after christmas would be nice if perpetual can steer is in the right direction

as for pvp it occurs to me why go out and destroy someone when ya can go into a holodeck make an instanced dungeon of space and let em find each other and blow the #### out of each other THAT i dont have a problem with in the shortterm it could be a solution to those that need there pvp fix. same can be done for non starship pvp as well

Wayfarer

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POSTS: 119

Report this Dec. 06 2004, 11:50 am

I use the term Carebear, however contrary to most I am a bit picky on who I call that, it isn't just PvEers, Crafters, or whatever, carebear has a totally different meaning for me.

To me PvP is a very important thing, and something that I don't think alot of games have really gotten right, which has led to a very bad rep for it.

PvP vs PvE is a very big issue in SWG(which I still play now), even tho, I think this has been one of the closer they have gotten it right in. To me, the thrill of PvP comes from fighting for ones own faction(Imperial myself), and so if it really mattered, I would kill a NPC as much as I would a PC of the opposing faction, if it furthered my own. I think that because of the PvP vs PvE many games have seperated the two wrongly, when if it was done right, a more immersive war could take place, between factions, where NPCs and PCs matter. This especially works well for SWG, if they did it, but it is largely opposed by those who want to part of a faction but then not engage in the war, and still get the rewards.

Frankly, IMO if there is a war, and your a member of a Warring Factions Military, you should expect to be in some danger, even if you try to avoid it.

Now I also, am one of the biggest supporters for roles in these types of faction wars, that DON'T focus on combat at all, but I still think those people should be in some danger, just because your a technician doesn't mean your excluded from the fighting.

At the very least I agree that seperate servers should be set up for PvP, PvE, and maybe more like something what I want(Total War). I know alot of you wont agree with me, but that is my oppinion.

Daybreak

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POSTS: 652

Report this Dec. 06 2004, 11:54 am

I would love to see both.  A 'total war' region of space where races can battle one another for planets and stations.  Where these systems give empire-wide bonuses.  There would have to be some space for each empire, that is completely off limits to the invaders.  This would satisfy the non-combat players.

The galactic map should be viewable in astrometrics, and the front lines should be visible, as well as the position of your own forces.  (hmm, maybe not, since this could be easily griefed)

DAoC has a good model of this, but it would work better in ST:O.

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