Star Trek

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Will you be able to travel and explore space? Yes. Space travel is going to be a fun and unique experience. Mission assignments will include dozens of ship types which are open environments that move through space. Will you be able to explore the surface of planets? Yes. Action on planets will be an important part of game-play.

all good

Now we get to the good stuff ..

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Will there be player vs. player combat? Some.  PvP will not be a primary means of advancement at game launch, but there will be opportunities to test your skills against other players.

If there will be no playable opposing factions then it makes sense for PvP to be limited, although I think the devs should give a great deal of thought into making playable races, and inter-factional warfare the main thrust of their expansion packs.

As people become bored with their Starfleet characters, or discover they are truly more suited to being a Klingon warrior, or a Romulan subcommander, those options should be made available.  That way, PvP will also increase as players become bored with AI-only fights.

Players in opposing factions, when and if that happens, because their numbers will always be much smaller than that of players who choose the Federation  the AI 'threats' to the Federation should remain, and perhaps players will be given some AI-ships to control at that point.

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How will solo play work? It will be possible to advance and have fun while playing solo, but you will miss out on some exciting team-play experiences.

Ok, now this is where the devs need to start thinking out of the box.  We absolutely need to have a place for 'solo' players (ex. the independents, who can earn latinum and buy their own small ships, and run their own class of missions etc.), but also we need to bring individual players in the Federation faction into the greater scheme of things, so that those players who do not have a lot of time to invest, or who are shy or whatever, still feel that they have a place.  

This can be solved by arbitrary ship assignments, and a 'transfer' system between crews which will allow players to find a ship that they can are comfortable with, but ultimately they will always have a ship they belong to, and they 'will', given frequent crew shortages, spend time on the bridge.

For those that want an important fleet position, but like to work alone, we can have the engineering and naval architecture jobs (crafting) at starbases and shipyards.  This ties into the arbitrary ship assignments as a method of producing ships for crews who ..

1) need an initial, new ship
2) need a ship repaired
3) need a replacement ship for one that is beyond repair
4) have 'earned' the ability to trade up to a better ship (more on that later/elsewhere)

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How will characters advance and grow? Characters will gain skills and rank by completing missions assigned by Starfleet command or by otherwise advancing the needs of Starfleet.

Again, this sounds more hopeful now (and more like what I've been pushing), after having encounterd so many very bad ideas on the various boards.

Need to speak a bit about the economy when talking about advancement, because for a ship's crew advancement will also mean trading up to a better ship, and having more efficient ship's systems, better maintenance/repair experiences.. etc...

Individuals should gain 'experience points' from completing successful missions and being victorious in combat, both shipboard and personal.  They then use these points to buy skills and rank.

The ship on the other hand would also earn "points", which would be used for repairs and maintenance, or if banked for a sufficiently long period of time, to trade in the ship for a more capable class.



Ownership



Needless to say, it's in direct conflict with Trek fundamentals, not to mention that it's unfair to individual players, and the simple fact that there is no "PLACE" for them.  As the devs have stated, there will be permanent crews, and perhaps there will be fleets, but above all there is Starfleet, which everyone who chooses it should feel they 'belong to' and have an important role to play .. no matter who their offline pals are, or how long they have been messing about in the various MMOPRGs that have existed.

This is an entirely new ball game people, and it should be created as such.

Ships should not be looked upon as something 'owned' in Starfleet (indies yes, Starfleet no).  I say this, not to sound like some weasel Trek trivia twinkie nutjob .. they make me as ill as the next person, I say it because it will be of great benefit to the game, and everyone who plays it.

If you allow 'guilds' to obtain control of ships, based on their size, or how much experience points they can amass.. or whatever, then you must in fairness provide that same opportunity to individuals who do not want to be part of a 'player association', because each player pays the same amount of money as the next, and frankly deserves a fair shake at whatever any other player has.

Sure, give the gangs some OOC communication methods, more commonly called a 'Friends List' which everyone will use, whether they are in a guild or not.  Also perhaps allow them to display their gang name in their character title, whatever appeases them.  However, if you care about Trek .. if you care about avoiding a red light from the people that are responsible for 'caring about Trek' and maintaining some sense of Roddenberry's vision, do not make them 'part of the game'.

Another great benefit to arbitrary assignments is the ability to match players up with people who connect at similar times, and for similar periods of time .. etc.  There could be a match-making criteria that would put people together who will be absolutely fantastic crew mates!!

Now, perhaps guild members who want to opt out of this process, and instead select an option to be transferred to a ship 'with' a specific collection of other players, who happen to be members of their guild. This way we have a fair system for fellow gang members to get together, and it's all part of a process that adequately reflects the Trek universe.  It limits no ones ability to be part of the game to the fullest extent they wish .. etc.

[B]Now, the only problem I've found which I hadn't been able to solve easily, is where do you get the initial batch of Captains from, after launch?

Welp, guess what .. I have a solution!

Use a collection of people from beta to maximum advantage.  As a contest / thank you to your beta participants, give a randomly chosen group of x .. to serve as Captains post-launch, for a set amount of time, just long enough for the first batch of new players to quality.  Then, the old beta stooges will be properly retired, and memorialized.


 

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Will there be crafting? At launch, the closest activities to crafting will be related to ship modification, repair and improvement.

Some more on PCs working at bases and shipyards .. I detailed this elsewhere on the board, but I'll say it again briefly because I think there would be a lot of players that would want to be responsible for ship construction and major repairs, especially if they were able to influence, and make somewhat unique the capabilities of one ship over another.

This would also facilitate arbitrary assignments as a method of involving all players in the game, while avoiding exclusionary, unfair ship obtainment.  This is accomplished by having the process of ship deployment a predictable, controlled and canon adhering process, which would involve players in every aspect.

-Surat

I have never heard you resolve one key issue in arbitrary assignments.  How can you force players to follow the orders of their PC captains in the game if assignemnts are random and non guild based?   Do you really believe all players would listen to someone becasue they simply have the in game rank of captain?  I surely do not believe that.  Hell, I would be skeptical to listen to the orders of another player who I do not feel I can trust or who has not earned my trust.  Some players will not listen to anyone else regardless of circumstance.  How can you intergrate such a crew?

1) You can not advance if your ship is not successful. If the hierarchy does not work, niether will the ship

2) The XO and CO of your ship will have earned that position, fair and square under the system I propose, unlike as system where a ship is run by whoever was able to "purchase it", or by a guild where assignments of Captains will be more political than anything.

3) It is a job, like anything else on the ship. I feel that only a mal-adjusted personality would look upon the Captain as someone they need to treat as a SUPERIOR. They are simply doing a job which they qualified for. A job that you can also qualify for if you choose.

4) Why assume that the Captain is going to be a problem? A ship's command staff (the XO and CO) must keep their crew happy for reasons mentioned in #1 most importantly, but also because the crew has the option to transfer.

I suggest that a ship that has an insufficient crew for a long period of time would be decomissioned, and the Captain would be punished any number of ways for not being able to maintain a ship.

There will always be people who have a problem with authority, no matter what form it takes. Narcissists who think that only they should be in charge in any given circumstance. For them, I suggest becoming an independent, another reason for that faction to exist.

Well that still does not solve the problem.  You cannot expect people to obey another simply because they are told to.  I have spent much of my adult life in the US Navy and if it has taught me anything the reasons people follow their superiors are as follows:

1. There are severe punishments for not following orders
2. There are severe punishments for not following orders
3. They have respect for their superiors which was earned
4. They believe in the mission
5. There is some benefit in it for them for obedience
6. Becasue your CO has undergone extensive training to get to where he is

Now this is not scientific nor definate fact.   Only observation from serving in the military.  But in general people do not follow others simply becasue they are told to.  Most direclty you follow the orders of your CO because if you don't you are going to be in a world of trouble.  There are legitimate reasons that are more positive.  If nothing else people tend to have respect for the position and the rank if not the man.  So you follow orders.  But that kind of thing does not happen over night.  Why do you think there is basic training in the military?   ANd why is it some much more abusive and physically intensive for enlisted?  SImply, you need to instill in your junior enlisted that they must obey the chain of command.  You learn in basic that if you do not do as you are told you are crapped on in a major way.  That is the initial motiviation for followership in the begenning.  As people progress they follow for other reasons which tend to be positive.

But bottom line, there is no reason for players in a game to follow orders.  You will not be punished for not following.  There is little benefit to you if you follow.  Most players will feel they should be in charge.  Your COs don't really have the ability to reward you in any way that means anything.  And there is nothing on the line.  People will not die if you do not follow orders.  There is no prode in the serviceor the mission since it is just a game.  So all the traditional motivations for followership are gone.   The only real reason to follow is to fit into the role-playing aspect of the game.

IN a guild at least there is a set chain of command.  Respect it or not if you do not follow it then you get booted from the guild.  There is an inherent understanding in guilds that there are consequences for not doing what the guild wants.  What consequences can there be for no listneing to a CO randomly assigned?


And the key issue that the devs will be concenred about is player retention in game.  Typically, close social bonds keep players playing the game which means they keep paying.  That is why all MMOs have potions of the game which for interaction.  Trade, public transportation, bars/cantinas/pubs, hospitals/medical facilities, static cities, guilds, etc.  Devs will incourage player interaction.  The strongest bonds tend to be those of guildmates.  And those who are memebrs of guilds tend to stay in game a bit longer.  So I have a feeling they will push guilding as do most MMOs wether or not it makes sense.

You know what, from my point of view you are both right. Guild or no to Guild, Well i think that if a guild is called a group of friend advancing in the game it is right and nobody has anything to say to that. But a guild in EQ and a guild in sto wont and cant be the same or feel the same. Just as you start the game you are becoming part of a large guild that is Starfleet. So as you said Ellessar,

##IN a guild at least there is a set chain of command.  Respect it or not if you do not follow it then you get booted from the guild##

So if we think for a lil moment that starfleet is a guild and that ppls that are commander or captain or admiral or whatever have worked hard to get where they are i would give them respect. Cause i know i wont be facing a Captain who doesnt give a damn about you or this game. Woudnt it feels like a guild. I mean if the CO talk to you and gives you order respectfully why woud you not listen to him or her. After all you know that he has given a lot of his or her time to get there.

So you know its a game before anything we will be there to have fun not to get insulted or bragged. So if we keep in mind that we will PLAY a role in a game where there is a chain of command then there shoudnt be a problem.

And by the way, why would a captain fromanother ship or from my ship come and give me order to follow?? cause it would be important for my guild wich is the starfleet guild.

-thank you

and please lets not wait for an expansion to have other faction i want to be a smugler at the start of it all damnit

First off, I'm not sure you are aware, but if you want to add just a single line you can just edit your post and not add an entire new one.  

I agree with what you said about wanitng multiple factions at launch and I agree.  I do not want to wait a year for an expansion to have other major powers.

Starfleet as a guild in istelf will not work.  If you ever played SWG being either a rebel or imp meant nothing to most people.  It was just something you chose.  That kind of system will not instill the team feeling that is need.  

And you still have not address my issue.  You say you would give respect to someone who is a captain.  Well I can speak from experience in many games and say this is not the case.  DO you think people in SWG listened to higher ranking memebrs of their faction?  Not a chance.  Your entire system is based on two shakey at best assumptions.  One, that the system to become a Captain or above actually means something and is not just a pure grind that anyone can do.  Two, that people will care.  You care.  That's great.  Others don't necessarily share your view.  

ANd personally, I wouldn't give anyone an ounch of respect because a game confered upon them some title or rank.  It means nothing.  That was some nonhuman computer system that said player X meets criteria X,Y,Z and now he is a captain.  He has not proven himself as a leader or a capable CO.  I would give such people no respect.  And I'm telling you loads of people will have similar views.  

And you also need to realize, that most MMO players do no PLAy the role as you say.  Most MMO players are the complete opposite of role players.  My experience in MMOs is that most players go out of their way to be hostile to people who do engage in Roleplay.  IN general my experince has shown me that people fight role play tooth and nail because they think the people that do it are wierdos and people with no lives.  I don't feel that way about RP myself.  In fact I am a bit partial to a fair amount of RP, but tons just get touchy if you even mention the subject.

I agree with you Ellessar about roleplay. People fight roleplay like mad. Most dont care to be around roleplayers in MMO's. Roleplayers usually have to find other roleplayers and go about things their own way in these games.

What needs to happen off the bat is an official Roleplay server or two depending on numbers at release. Have a set of roleplaying rules for a server at release. Enforce the rules..unlike how most MMO's dont enforce naming rules and roleplaying rules.

Look Ellessar ive been hoping for a game in wich every player could be part of something big. Putting Imp or Rebel in SWG was maybe not a good idea but i still think that there is a very big difference between star wars and startrek. Im not saying that my idea was the best, but if we have a RP server with rules and regulation i think it would be doable to have a chain of command that woudnt require being in a guild.

and thanks for the Edit thing  

Being Rebel or Imp in SWG meant mostly nothing not because of the factions but because of the lack of content provided by the Devs to have them mean something.  Just like Jedi are now a joke.  

The secret is to have the advancement and affiliation mean something - to have content and consequences for your choices and actions.  If there was an immersive system that had someone meet the criteria of Captain by doing X, Y and Z - I would have no problem showing that peson some respect IF X, Y and Z were something more than a grind.  A computer can only put out what programmers put in.  Give it a crappy system, and you have a crappy game.  Have obtaining a profession/level/title mean more than slaying 300,000 bunnies and delivering 10,000 carrots from point A to point B and the rest will follow.

Ugh..

The US NAVY and SWG both have absolutely nothing to do with this game!!  Personally, I don't care at all about your repeatedly self-ascribed naval service, all we need to look at is TREK ITSELF for the content of this game!

I like Surat's main idea of players having ranks and obeying orders and so on.

I think Ellesar is right though in that many players will say 'If I am paying a monthly fee then I should be allowed to be a captain if I want to be'

We had all this with SWG and the Jedi.

However...if a group of players voluntarily joins up to serve together on a ship then they could be given special advantages over individual players. The crew could get special functions that single player ships cannot access.

May be they could access exclusive missions. Say only they, not individuals, can land on a planet or base, where there is rare tech that will boost your ship, if you are in a group on board a ship. And that tech cannot be traded, so single players who have never grouped could not get hold of it.

As for disciplined play, if anyone plays up the captain boots them and they get sent back to a choice of local stops or their home. If the captain is an idiot, players can automatically leave and again be sent back to somewhere of their own choosing.

There would be plenty of stuff for single players but those wanting the best action would be expected to sign up with others.

I agree.  If captain means something other than just the pointless repitition of the same action or the killing of demon super chickens to gain XP then I can't see the system working.  But even if the system makes it difficult to become a CO and it a worthy achievement people will still not listen to those who are COs.  I think the exact opposite will happen and they will become hated by a large portion of the player base.  Take a look at Jedi in SWG.  Jedi is a hard thing to get in the game and most people are jealous of those who have it and they hate them for it.  Now granted the old sysytem in SWG was bad, but the new system takes time and dedication.  But still jedi are hated.  I think that if CO becomes hard to get they same might happen.

I do agree there should be dedicated RP servers in which a strict role playing enviornment is maintained.  But outside such a server I cannot see a randomly assigned player crew with a player captain working outside of a guild system.  There is simply no reason to follow your CO.

Quote (Ellessar @ Oct. 04 2004, 8:51 pm)

I do agree there should be dedicated RP servers in which a strict role playing enviornment is maintained. But outside such a server I cannot see a randomly assigned player crew with a player captain working outside of a guild system. There is simply no reason to follow your CO.

I agree that a true command structure won't work as people won't take orders from anonymous strangers.

I can even see some deliberately trying to screw things up by not firing phasers or torpedoes when asked to.

Players could share ships and have command ranks just to allow them to do the group missions I was on about before.
One person would control the ship and the others would be passengers with no real role although one or two could have weapons responsibility - a bit like the Galaxy squad transport aircraft in Planetside.

People might be prepared to team up for an hour or two if it gives them a shot at getting a super phaser that they could not get on their own.

Quote (Nitebot @ Oct. 04 2004, 1:07 pm)

Quote (Ellessar @ Oct. 04 2004, 8:51 pm) I do agree there should be dedicated RP servers in which a strict role playing enviornment is maintained.  But outside such a server I cannot see a randomly assigned player crew with a player captain working outside of a guild system.  There is simply no reason to follow your CO. I agree that a true command structure won't work as people won't take orders from anonymous strangers. I can even see some deliberately trying to screw things up by not firing phasers or torpedoes when asked to. Players could share ships and have command ranks just to allow them to do the group missions I was on about before. One person would control the ship and the others would be passengers with no real role although one or two could have weapons responsibility - a bit like the Galaxy squad transport aircraft in Planetside. People might be prepared to team up for an hour or two if it gives them a shot at getting a super phaser that they could not get on their own.

Right, that is exactly what I think.  There will be people out there who no matter what system will not listen to anyone else.  So the only way to prevent getting stuck with a deliquent crew member is to not have random crew assignments.  

I can definatly see people not only not doing as they are told, but as you say intentionally causing problems.  Some people love to grief other players in these MMOs for no reason other than they think it is fun.  A random system would give such griefers free range.