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]SW "lasers"

Grand_Admiral

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POSTS: 479

Report this Sep. 28 2004, 7:25 pm

Ok, debating here, I know that there are a quite a few of pro-Trek people who say that Star Wars only uses "lasers" described in Trek. That is however, incorrect. SW lasers are not lasers. Instead of me going into a long winded post, I present you with this.

Now, many will say the site is biased and whatnot, but at least read. Mainly the parts for about SW lasers. This will just clear up any debates in the future concerning SW weapons.

Enterprise1701f

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POSTS: 754

Report this Sep. 28 2004, 7:44 pm

It is, sadly, true as described in the official encyclopedia the lasers use some type of gas cell and then light it and the plasmized energy is what does the damage, not a laser beam.

Grand_Admiral

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POSTS: 479

Report this Sep. 28 2004, 9:01 pm

Also note that turbolasers are not turbo-"lasers."

They are massless beams of energy which travel at lightspeed and produce a byproduct which is the colo you see.

lanceromega

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POSTS: 3859

Report this Sep. 28 2004, 9:22 pm

Quote (Grand_Admiral @ Sep. 28 2004, 4:25 pm)
Ok, debating here, I know that there are a quite a few of pro-Trek people who say that Star Wars only uses "lasers" described in Trek.  That is however, incorrect.  SW lasers are not lasers.  Instead of me going into a long winded post, I present you with this.

Now, many will say the site is biased and whatnot, but at least read.  Mainly the parts for about SW lasers.  This will just clear up any debates in the future concerning SW weapons.

Doesnot matter whether SW lasers are laser or not. As it stand the reason according to varies episode and from trek material is that the laser in ST universe are low power weapons compare to phaser or even SW laser.

SW lasers / energy weapons are at least 1000X more powerful that Phasers, and in the long run it is power that matter.

Photon torpedoes releases electromagnetic energy just like normal lasers, and Federation ships are not immune to them.

Grand_Admiral

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POSTS: 479

Report this Sep. 28 2004, 9:24 pm

While those are good points Lancer, many people will completely ignore all of the stats for a laser if they think its still the same type as a Trek laser.

So we have to start somewhere, ;)

lanceromega

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POSTS: 3859

Report this Sep. 29 2004, 12:23 am

Quote (Grand_Admiral @ Sep. 28 2004, 6:24 pm)
While those are good points Lancer, many people will completely ignore all of the stats for a laser if they think its still the same type as a Trek laser.

So we have to start somewhere, ;)

Problem is that even Trekkie lasers are dangerous to ST ships.

Typical example : Borg's Cutting laser, electromagnetic cannon from "last outpost", Lasers preventing a diplomatic mission in "loud as a Whisper", Talarians x ray lasers in "suddenly humans"...

The reason many believe that ST ships are immune to lasers is from Worf's off handed remark in the "Outrageous Okona " when the Enterprise was threaten by a vastly technological inferior race, that the lasers of the enemy craft could not penetrate the Navigational deflector...  

Similar comments have been air by Data when faced by low power disruptors ( 2.1MJ) , and Riker against 40 MW proton beam yet no trekkie would dare admit that the enterprise is immune to these types of attacks.

ramsesqu

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POSTS: 78

Report this Sep. 29 2004, 12:31 am

i think compare SW ans ST, i think ST is more realistic, both of them are great show
i tend to think them both as a ROMANTIZED story of which really happened.

so read them like fairy tails, not bible...(not there is anything wrong with that)

lanceromega

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POSTS: 3859

Report this Sep. 29 2004, 1:29 am

Quote (ramsesqu @ Sep. 28 2004, 9:31 pm)
i think compare SW ans ST, i think ST is more realistic, both of them are great show
i tend to think them both as a ROMANTIZED story of which really happened.

so read them like fairy tails, not bible...(not there is anything wrong with that)

base on what? Technical babble...

SW doesnot attempt to impress with technology, the devices used are so reliable and such an ingrain part of the SW universe that the characters treat their technology as we would an automobile or hand drill.

Han doenot need a degree in hyperspacial physics to fix the Hyperdrive, just a Protocol droid to tell him what part has to be replaced, and if he had an astrodroid, he could just let the Droid handle it.

Luke doesnot discuss the Physic of proton torpedoe, ( well we are told that it block by particles shields) just that he need to drop one down the shaft of deathstar to kill it.

SW tech is the tech of a anicent technologically mature culture who has have items like hyperdrive for thousands of years...

ST technology is flimsy and the problem generally are caused by the failure of it at a critical time. The Characters are constantly tinkering and attempting to find a technological solution.

but the dialogue makes no sense. Blackhole horizon donot have cracks, Polaron are magnetic domain in metals and cannot be beamed, etc.... It only seem more realitic to those who donot know better...

Enterprise1701f

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Report this Sep. 30 2004, 4:31 pm

photon torpedoes are a massively powerful explosive device sure they emit EM radiation, but they do their damage when they erupt massively similar to dynamite or TNT not phasers which do their damage by pure Em radiation or heat.

lanceromega

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POSTS: 3859

Report this Sep. 30 2004, 9:03 pm

Quote (Enterprise1701f @ Sep. 30 2004, 1:31 pm)
photon torpedoes are a massively powerful explosive device sure they emit EM radiation, but they do their damage when they erupt massively similar to dynamite or TNT not phasers which do their damage by pure Em radiation or heat.

first They exploded in vaccum, there is no concussion force. Concussion forces are created by pressure waves of air , which is absent in space.

When matter and antimatter meet it becomes pure gamma rays ( Electromagnetic radiation), and then the Gamma rays become a mixture of Pions, Muons,  gamma rays.

Most of the damage would be done via these radiations.

Borg_Unicomplex

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POSTS: 3972

Report this Sep. 30 2004, 9:11 pm

Federation Type XII Phasers (Found on Sovereign Class, Prometheus Class):
85,000 TeraWatts of damage
or
20.3 MegaTons of damage/second

Federation Type X Phasers (Found on Defiant Class, Galaxy Class, Akira Class, Nebula Class):
50,000 TeraWatts of damage
or
11.9 MegaTons of damage/second

Federation Type IX Phasers (Found on Excelsior Class Refit 3):
40,000 TeraWatts of damage
or
9.5 MegaTons of damage/second

Federation Type VIII Phasers (Found on Intrepid Class, Nova Class, Excelsior Class Refit 1&2, Miranda Class Refit, Steamrunner Class):
10,000 TeraWatts of damage
or
2.3 MegaTons of damage/second

Federation Type VII Phasers (Found on Norway Class, Saber Class)
9,000 TeraWatts of damage
or
2.1 MegaTons of damage/second

Federation Type VI Phasers (Found on Miranda Class)
3,000 TeraWatts of damage
or
700 Kilotons of damage/second

Those are the Phaser Types used still by the Federation however I do not have maximum damage quotes for Type XI Phasers! And besides that is the most common type of vessel you will see each weapon. Those power quotes are maximum damage!



Federation Photon Torpedoes:
21.8 Isotons of damage
or
58 MegaTons of damage

Federation Quantum Torpedoes:
52.3 Isotons of damage
or
138.88 MegaTons of damage

Transphasic Torpedoes and Tricobalt Devices have not been release with their maximum yield so there cannot be included, but as seen on the show they are very powerful!


The Photon Torpedo was calculated using:
E=mc^2
E=?
M=3(1.5matter/1.5anti-matter)
C=3*10^8

E=Mc^ 2
E=3*(3*10^8)^2
E=2.7*10^17J

Assuming around a 90% conversion rate.

E=2.7*10^17/100
E=2.7*10^15*90
___
E=2.43*10^17J
---------------
(the largest nuke ever detonated wa 2.4*10^17J
or 57.6 megatons)

we also know that 1 jule= 2.4*10^-10 tons

that gives us 5.8*10^7 tons
or 58megatons

Since Federation Photon Torpedoes have a yield of 21.8 Isotons and a Quantum has 52.3 Isotons:
52.2/21.8=2.3994

So:
58 Megatons*2.3994=138.88 MegaTons for Quantum Torpedoes!

Phasers:
1,000 GigaWatt-Hour or 1 TerraWatt-Hour= 0.000860420650096 MegaTons

So you have to calculate down Hours-Minutes-Seconds!

Assuming these values are correct when dealing with the Phaser outputs, me and several other members worked out these calculations!

lanceromega

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POSTS: 3859

Report this Oct. 01 2004, 1:01 am

Quote (Borg_Unicomplex @ Sep. 30 2004, 6:11 pm)
Federation Type XII Phasers (Found on Sovereign Class, Prometheus Class):
85,000 TeraWatts of damage
or
20.3 MegaTons of damage/second

Federation Type X Phasers (Found on Defiant Class, Galaxy Class, Akira Class, Nebula Class):
50,000 TeraWatts of damage
or
11.9 MegaTons of damage/second

Federation Type IX Phasers (Found on Excelsior Class Refit 3):
40,000 TeraWatts of damage
or
9.5 MegaTons of damage/second

Federation Type VIII Phasers (Found on Intrepid Class, Nova Class, Excelsior Class Refit 1&2, Miranda Class Refit, Steamrunner Class):
10,000 TeraWatts of damage
or
2.3 MegaTons of damage/second

Federation Type VII Phasers (Found on Norway Class, Saber Class)
9,000 TeraWatts of damage
or
2.1 MegaTons of damage/second

Federation Type VI Phasers (Found on Miranda Class)
3,000 TeraWatts of damage
or
700 Kilotons of damage/second

Those are the Phaser Types used still by the Federation however I do not have maximum damage quotes for Type XI Phasers! And besides that is the most common type of vessel you will see each weapon. Those power quotes are maximum damage!



Federation Photon Torpedoes:
21.8 Isotons of damage
or
58 MegaTons of damage

Federation Quantum Torpedoes:
52.3 Isotons of damage
or
138.88 MegaTons of damage

Transphasic Torpedoes and Tricobalt Devices have not been release with their maximum yield so there cannot be included, but as seen on the show they are very powerful!


The Photon Torpedo was calculated using:
E=mc^2
E=?
M=3(1.5matter/1.5anti-matter)
C=3*10^8

E=Mc^ 2
E=3*(3*10^8)^2
E=2.7*10^17J

Assuming around a 90% conversion rate.

E=2.7*10^17/100
E=2.7*10^15*90
___
E=2.43*10^17J
---------------
(the largest nuke ever detonated wa 2.4*10^17J
or 57.6 megatons)

we also know that 1 jule= 2.4*10^-10 tons

that gives us 5.8*10^7 tons
or 58megatons

Since Federation Photon Torpedoes have a yield of 21.8 Isotons and a Quantum has 52.3 Isotons:
52.2/21.8=2.3994

So:
58 Megatons*2.3994=138.88 MegaTons for Quantum Torpedoes!

Phasers:
1,000 GigaWatt-Hour or 1 TerraWatt-Hour= 0.000860420650096 MegaTons

So you have to calculate down Hours-Minutes-Seconds!

Assuming these values are correct when dealing with the Phaser outputs, me and several other members worked out these calculations!

ahahahahah...... boy are you wayyyyyyyy off!!!

Amazing where did you come up with these so called calculations!

Phaser power as per TNG Tech manual - 1.29 GW
        as per a DS9 episode "Battle Line"  40 MW
         as per TNG episode " who watch the watcher" 4.2 GW

The various range can be assume to be due to the various phaser type batteries, but no where have we seen or have a single quote dictating such outages Phaser power.

Even the Warp Engines have been quoted has having power rating in the low Terrawatt range, so where would you get the power for 85,000 TW Phaser!!!!!

Your figures originial came from the following website :

http://www.ditl.org/

And has been removed as the owner of the site realized that these numbers where unsupported, but the still float around the web on various pro trekkie website (EI DARKSTAR.....)

As for the Value of Photon torpedoes, the figure that float around is the fact that 1.5 Kilogram of AM ( Max for Feddie Torpedoes) is combine with equal amount of matter ( From TNG TM).. for a max explosion power of around 64.4 MT..

The fact is that we never seen this in reality, since we have episodes where a photon torpedoes are used and no explosion of nuclear effect have been observe ( ST ,Movie, Undiscover country, a Photon Torpedo was drop mere meter from Kirk...)

But your calcuation for the Photon and Quantum torpedoes seem to match the except Values based on the Tech manual which are not cannon material.. Based on Visuals of the Movies and series, it appear to really be in the low Kiloton range.

Borg_Unicomplex

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POSTS: 3972

Report this Oct. 01 2004, 1:32 am

Yes my form of speculation! so.... :p

I am proud of it! I may not stand by it, but the pride is there!

Borg_Unicomplex

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POSTS: 3972

Report this Oct. 01 2004, 1:41 am

Besides even the Trek manuals are not Canon, even though I consider then the closed non-canon thing to canon!

Either way I proved that random numbers with some simplicity could work!

lanceromega

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POSTS: 3859

Report this Oct. 01 2004, 1:50 am

Quote (Borg_Unicomplex @ Sep. 30 2004, 10:32 pm)
Yes my form of speculation! so.... :p

I am proud of it! I may not stand by it, but the pride is there!

I once speculated like you, but then I got promoted to the first grade :p

Like I said your phaser powers are pure nonsense, while your Photon torpedoes Numbers are based on non cannon sources and ignore a few things.

The efficiency of the torpedo as a weapon is determined by the amount of destructive energy it delivers to the target. The detonation results in a spherical explosion, which means that should the torpedo detonate against an infinitely large flat surface, then half of the energy will impact the surface, and the other half will be directed away from the surface. So already, the torpedo as a weapon is only fifty percent efficient. However, this is the theoretical maximum. In the real world, it would be somewhat less than half the total yield of the detonation.

Furthermore, if the torpedo detonates some distance away from the target, then since the energy of detonation is radiated spherically, significantly less than half the energy will actually hit the target.

Most of the energy is directed harmlessly into space, and beyond a certain range, only an insignificant fraction of the energy will actually hit the target. However, [thanks to Lord Edam da Fromage alias Michael Griffiths for the following.] In the TM the following two statements are made with respect to photon torpedoes.

1. Photon Torpedoes are directed against threat force targets at distances from 15km to nearly 3500000km.
2. The TNG TM says it is the responsibility of the firing ship to ensure it is outside of the "explosion hazard radius" in all situations where the target is within 25km.

The two statements together implies that photon torpedoes have a hazard radius of anywhere between 15km and 25km. It is more likely to be 15km though, since the 25km distance might include the "proximity range" at which the torpedo will detonate. For example, the torpedo may have a proximity sensor causing it to detonate within 10km of the target, and if the target is only 25km away, then the explosion could be only 15km away from the firing ship. See statement 1.

Note that the statements also mean that a photon torpedo defintely has a spherical detonation, since at this range ("Explosive hazard radius") the detonation is still a hazard to the firing ship.

At 15km, the amount of energy which would reach a 600m long starship would be about 0.004% of the total energy of detonation, or about 2.7 kilotons spread over the surface area of the starship. This works out to an approximate Intensity of 95.3 megajoules per square meter. The significance of this figure is probably that this is the amount of energy beyond which the shields cannot protect the crew with 100% efficiency. That is, there is a risk of energy leaking past the shields at an Intensity higher than this (95.3 megajoules per square meter).

So as it stand any beam weapon only needs to delivered 100MJ per square meter to over come the shields of a federation warship.

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