Surat GROUP: Members POSTS: 334  |
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Sep. 21 2004, 3:22 pm
I always vote first for PERMADEATH, and when everyone BOOs I go with my second choice .. PERMADEATH! When everyone says I'm a maso-sadistic nutjob, I then go with my third choice, draconian skill/stat reduction .. but I guess I'll have to eventually accept some kind of transporter buffer nonsense.  |
ConerVallore GROUP: Members POSTS: 232 |
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Sep. 21 2004, 3:44 pm
By moderator do you mean an official player? You need to consider players will die on a daily basis. You cant always have a person there to say if it was a fair death. You also need to take in account deaths that are out of the players control (connection problems, grifers). You would need to pay a lot of people to do this.
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ConerVallore GROUP: Members POSTS: 232 |
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Sep. 21 2004, 3:49 pm
| Quote (Surat @ Sep. 21 2004, 12:22 pm) | | I always vote first for PERMADEATH, and when everyone BOOs I go with my second choice .. PERMADEATH! When everyone says I'm a maso-sadistic nutjob, I then go with my third choice, draconian skill/stat reduction .. but I guess I'll have to eventually accept some kind of transporter buffer nonsense. |
Permadeath will never happen in a mmo with pay to play  (unless there only planning on having a handful of hardcore players play). My best bet is that if you do go down on a mission or something you get transported to your ships medical station or back to a star base medical station. I'm sure death will give a short-term stat/skill loss of some kind but I don't think they will go with any permanent loss. Maybe some kind of faction hit and failed missions you where on. Ship will be the same with some repair time needed. |
SBOBraveloco GROUP: Members POSTS: 48 |
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Sep. 21 2004, 4:36 pm
I think to keep with reality in a sense...if your in a heated battle and your killed on the bridge of your ship, you are OUT of the equation.
Therefore set up a clone type system (the final results depend how they plan on doing skills in the game) and have clone centers at major starbases. So your out of the fight and cant "go to sickbay get better and come back for more."
After regenerating at the base (closest to the scene of you demise) you have the options of either taking a shuttle / runabout back to your ship, waiting for you boys to come and pick you and the other demised crew up (if the ship survives os course) or ask for a new assignment at the Admirals office in that sector. Or maybe stay and work on the starbase, etc.
The emergrgency beamout think sounds like what they are gonna do with the Matrix. And I don't like it, but FOR THAT GAME thats probably the best option. Not so for ST if you want to keep things are realistic and cannon as possible.
-2 pennies
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Surat GROUP: Members POSTS: 334 |
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Sep. 21 2004, 5:46 pm
Whatever they do, they can not make 'resurrection' part of the game, as cloning is part of the game in SWG, if you know what I mean. Death should cost a player dearly. Yes, perma-death would only appeal to extremists like myself, but for death to be treated as a joke, as it is in SWG, I think it cheapens everything. People were actually using death/cloning as a transportation system in SWG before vehicles were introduced... that make me want to vomit. Here's a compromise .. People who die should, as was said above, just reappear at the nearest MAJOR medical center.. whether that be on a planet or a starbase. The player would hear/read a message saying something like .. your ship was destroyed but you were recovered and we put your broken a* back together again. You lost an arm in hand-to-hand combat with a Klingon warrior!!! BE MORE CAREFUL! heh.. anyway, the player should get hit with stat reductions that last x amount of time representing recovery time. Those stat reductions will affect a person's skills of course, and they may not be in any shape to crew a starship .. so they can go and take some RR or a refresher course or something. Take a couple days off, dig? |
SelarLover GROUP: Members POSTS: 41 |
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Sep. 21 2004, 6:47 pm
Thinking in the star trek mindset, the idea of 'buying' ships goes against the grain. I have a real problem with the usual MMO mindset. This is Star Trek. Ships should be assigned by the fleet. Orders should be assigned by the fleet. A player ship (ie galaxy class) shouldn't be purchased, but issued. Repairs should usually be covered by a ship budget controlled by the fleet, but players shouldn't have to 'pay' for it. How often did you see kirk or picard picking pockets of dead enemies so he could buy uber loot someone got off a klingon ship? Never. They don't use loot to update their ships becasue it is all issued and, thus, not theirs to just screw with. You could take the exception of Voyager when they kept borg components (they were across the galaxy).
Now that is off my shoulder, I think the emergency beamout or 'waking' up in sick bay would be an excellent way to deal with death. permadeath? This makes me think of the jedi BS the devs did with SWG when it first came around. I'm sorry, it's a game, not a job. I don't want to erase weeks of progress because I was forced into a Kobayashi Maru incident during PvP (in other words, getting ganked). It's simply not fun, and a monthly subscription for a game should be the most fun out there. I would be happy to take XP loss in exchange for death.
My ultimate hope is that this game will embody the spirit of Star Trek. Otherwise, it's just a space based SWG or EQ.
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ConerVallore GROUP: Members POSTS: 232 |
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Sep. 21 2004, 6:56 pm
That sounds about what I have been shooting for. When your ship blows up you should be sent to the nearest star base with a msg like your ship was destroyed however we where able to recover the haul of your ship. You then have to wait X time until the ship can be fix (5-45 min depending on the ship). Something that doesnt screw over the players but still adds a penalty that you would want to avoid.
They could even throw is some cool death cut-scenes like your ship blowing up but an escape pod flys past after the explosion. Or you being transported out of a ground mission when you die.
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Surat GROUP: Members POSTS: 334 |
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Sep. 21 2004, 7:05 pm
Welp, like I said, permadeath will understandably remain wishful thinking on the part of immersion extremists like myself. I would only say that if people don't want to die, they should stick to simulations like the Kobayashi Maru . The thing about a costly death, or costly near-death in this case, is that it is the single most effective way to get players to behave .. intelligently. As you probably know from playing other MMORPGs, players who are cautious and inhabit their character to the proper degree so that they feel it extremely important to avoid being iced, they are too often in short supply. Too often players find a way to exploit their willingness to risk repeated death to gain rapid advancement. You've seen them .. the guys running around in their underwear attacking things that they statistically have no hope of defeating, but when they do, oh boy .. big pay day. The wonderful thing about Star Trek is that there is a home for maniacal risk-takers .. the Klingon Empire. |
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ConerVallore GROUP: Members POSTS: 232 |
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Sep. 21 2004, 7:06 pm
| Quote | | Thinking in the star trek mindset, the idea of 'buying' ships goes against the grain. I have a real problem with the usual MMO mindset. This is Star Trek. Ships should be assigned by the fleet. Orders should be assigned by the fleet. A player ship (ie galaxy class) shouldn't be purchased, but issued. Repairs should usually be covered by a ship budget controlled by the fleet, but players shouldn't have to 'pay' for it. How often did you see kirk or picard picking pockets of dead enemies so he could buy uber loot someone got off a klingon ship? Never. They don't use loot to update their ships becasue it is all issued and, thus, not theirs to just screw with. You could take the exception of Voyager when they kept borg components (they were across the galaxy). |
Here is the problem with this, and I see it a lot here. Ideally this is how it should work. Im sure most people here, the devs, and even myself wish everything could feel just like we where in StarTrek. However, in the end we need to ask our selves "how will this work?" and "Will this be fun?" Systems like having issued ships, issued ship parts would be ideal, but you remove a lot of your player interaction by doing this. Now you could say that you gain faction points and then use them to buy parts and ships. Faction points could be call like influence points or something. When you buy a ship it would be more like it was issued to you because you used your standing/influence with your faction to get it (not money). |
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ConerVallore GROUP: Members POSTS: 232 |
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Sep. 21 2004, 7:14 pm
| Quote (Surat @ Sep. 21 2004, 4:05 pm) | Welp, like I said, permadeath will understandably remain wishful thinking on the part of immersion extremists like myself. I would only say that if people don't want to die, they should stick to simulations like the Kobayashi Maru .
The thing about a costly death, or costly near-death in this case, is that it is the single most effective way to get players to behave .. intelligently. As you probably know from playing other MMORPGs, players who are cautious and inhabit their character to the proper degree so that they feel it extremely important to avoid being iced, they are too often in short supply.
Too often players find a way to exploit their willingness to risk repeated death to gain rapid advancement. You've seen them .. the guys running around in their underwear attacking things that they statistically have no hope of defeating, but when they do, oh boy .. big pay day.
The wonderful thing about Star Trek is that there is a home for maniacal risk-takers .. the Klingon Empire. |
I think the major problem with perma-death in an mmo is death out of the control of the player (connection issues) as well as grifers. I do agree with you that perma death would force you to think more and be better... but what about the person who spends 5 hours a week and spends 5 months getting to where he/she is and bam your connection goes bad and you die. They just spent 5 months and it all gone. Also some people just have a bad day now and then and things just go wrong. So yes perma death makes people play better, but no madder how good you play something wrong will always happen at some point and you will lose everything (doesnt sound good to most paying customers). The only way around it is to make it so players can get up and going within a few days with all the best stuff (that would spoil the game also). |
Tal_Shiar_Officer GROUP: Members POSTS: 1652 |
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Sep. 21 2004, 7:32 pm
My thoughts are if you die on an away mission, then you are transported back to the ship and you wake up in sickbay. You are then unable to go back. No other penalty. If everyone dies, then the mission is failed. That may result in lost prestige or something like that. Either way, mission failure is not a desirable result.
As for ships, my thought is to give an option to send out a distress call. If this option is used, though, then the current mission is failed. The distress call would mostly be used in "We've been hurt badly and may die! Save us!" It would have the bad effect of losing the mission, but could easily be a way to save a ship from destruction.
If a ship is destroyed, all of the crew should survive. It would be fun to have a "30 seconds to warp core breach!" phase where everyone runs to escape pods or dies, but I could live without it. The crew fails their current mission and is assigned a new, "lesser" ship. So if they had a Sovereign Class ship, they may have to go back to a less powerful design. The captain may also be demoted, but this is just a thought.
I feel this would make death something that players will want to avoid, but will not be too harsh.
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SelarLover GROUP: Members POSTS: 41 |
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Sep. 21 2004, 9:29 pm
| Quote (ConerVallore @ Sep. 21 2004, 4:06 pm) | | Quote | | Thinking in the star trek mindset, the idea of 'buying' ships goes against the grain. I have a real problem with the usual MMO mindset. This is Star Trek. Ships should be assigned by the fleet. Orders should be assigned by the fleet. A player ship (ie galaxy class) shouldn't be purchased, but issued. Repairs should usually be covered by a ship budget controlled by the fleet, but players shouldn't have to 'pay' for it. How often did you see kirk or picard picking pockets of dead enemies so he could buy uber loot someone got off a klingon ship? Never. They don't use loot to update their ships becasue it is all issued and, thus, not theirs to just screw with. You could take the exception of Voyager when they kept borg components (they were across the galaxy). |
Here is the problem with this, and I see it a lot here. Ideally this is how it should work. Im sure most people here, the devs, and even myself wish everything could feel just like we where in StarTrek. However, in the end we need to ask our selves "how will this work?" and "Will this be fun?"
Systems like having issued ships, issued ship parts would be ideal, but you remove a lot of your player interaction by doing this. Now you could say that you gain faction points and then use them to buy parts and ships. Faction points could be call like influence points or something. When you buy a ship it would be more like it was issued to you because you used your standing/influence with your faction to get it (not money). |
I think the question about player interaction is solved when everyone is a team member keeping the ship from exploding during battle. I see your point, especially when you talk about other mmo's like SWG (in that game, half the members are crafters, who then support the non-crafters' needs). But with a pool of people who, mostly, want to be command characters, I see alot of people wanting to be part of the battle over selling ships. In my eyes, it wouldn't be star trek if I could simply buy a sovereign class ship from a shipwright. But getting equipment with influence points seems much more reasonable. This is similar to the ship's budget I mentioned earlier. After all, in the Navy, every ship is given a quarterly budget that covers everything needed to operate a ship. This includes repairs. If the captain decides that the crew is to eat surf 'n turf every day, you would see fewer mops and repair cycles. On the other hand, if the captain were to decide to dump all the money into repairs and upgrades, then you'd eat 5hit on a shingle every day. Of course, no captain would survive his command if he ran his budget this way. So the influence point thing sounds cool if you pair it with an already existing budget placed by the server. The bigger the ship, the more you get (and thus, the higher the cost is to maintain the ship). The influence point would be used, in this thought, to purchase that extra shield generator or an extra bank of photon torpedoes. Just my $.02 I know it is Star Trek and not the Navy, but didn't Gene develop the starfleet infrastructure around the Navy concept? |
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SelarLover GROUP: Members POSTS: 41 |
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Sep. 21 2004, 9:40 pm
Sorry, I will stop hijacking the thread now.
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Sirron GROUP: Members POSTS: 72 |
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Sep. 22 2004, 12:16 am
hm..i would like to add my two cents in hopes of providing some solution.
If ship gets blown:
There should be the optoin of going to escape pods so ppl live and they don't die. But ship itself is lost..the ship is the property of the Faction..not a single players. Hopefully some other federation comes to pick u up or the program automatically states that u get saved and return back home. Earth...
If u get killed as part of an away team: u don't really die but go unconscious. And supposedly some npc medical officer beams u up immediately.
Penalty from going unconcious or losing ship:
Influence or prestige or experience or all drops. And i say demotion for high ranking officers to show that they didn't command well (by choosing the right mission for the level of the crew they have)
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Peers11thFleet GROUP: Members POSTS: 52 |
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Sep. 22 2004, 1:49 am
Clonning is "shaddy" in Star Trek. Did we see clones? Yes. Do you see them regularly? No! Very rarely! Most applications of Genetic Science, such as Genetic Enhancement are banned within the Federation after the Eugenics Wars. I would tend to think that such a measure would have been taken against Clonning aswell since there's only a hazy line between it and Genetic Enhancement.
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