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BORG INVASION

lanceromega

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POSTS: 3859

Report this Sep. 05 2004, 9:45 pm

Quote (Vold @ Sep. 05 2004, 6:31 pm)
1 Thing i'm curious though, all this "info" the SW supporters are using are all based in books.

Are their Books canon?

If not than the only source of info is the movies & there is no such mentions/existence of 1/2 of the things mentioned here.

Unlike Paramount, Lucas has set offical levels of Cannon and offical sources. All Books Are consider Officalsor quasi cannon, except the "Cross Section Books" Which are consider Cannon. And we can even use all the SW comics by Marvel and Darkhorse..

As per George lucas:

Gospel, or canon as we refer to it, includes the screenplays, the films, the radio dramas and the novelisations. These works spin out of George Lucas' original stories, the rest are written by other writers. However, between us, we've read everything, and much of it is taken into account in the overall continuity. The entire catalog of published works comprises a vast history -- with many off-shoots, variations and tangents -- like any other well-developed mythology."

Just what is Star Wars canon, and what is not? The one sure answer: The Star Wars Trilogy Special Edition- the three films themselves as executive-produced, and in the case of Star Wars written and directed, by George Lucas, are canon. Coming in a close second we have the authorized adaptations of the films: the novels, radio dramas, and comics. After that, almost everything falls into a category of "quasi-canon"."
The first two Incredible Cross-Sections books were conceived to explore bold new territory in the Star Wars universe, taking a rare look inside more vehicles and vessels than we had ever seen before, and doing in in unprecidented detail. These books would represent the most thorough research ever done on these vehicles and would receive Lucasfilm's formal imprimatur as canon. These volumes would henceforth be sent out to licensees as reference guides and would become useful manuals for Industrial Light & Magic, where some of the artwork influenced details in Episodes I and II."

Vs Star Trek:

As a rule of thumb, the events that take place within the live action episodes and movies are canon, or official Star Trek facts. Story lines, characters, events, stardates, etc. that take place within the fictional novels, the Animated Adventures, and the various comic lines are not canon.

There are a couple of exceptions to this rule: the Jeri Taylor penned novels "Mosaic" and "Pathways." Many of the events in these two novels feature background details of the main Star Trek: Voyager characters. (Note: There are a few details from an episode of the Animated Adventures that have entered into the Star Trek canon. The episode "Yesteryear," written by D.C. Fontana, features some biographical background on Spock.)

Soooooooo tooo bad....

Grand_Admiral

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 479

Report this Sep. 05 2004, 9:48 pm

We got it the 1st time Lance. :;):

But like he said, all SW books unless labeled with "Infinities" are canon.  Even games are considered a form of canon unless in contradiction with the higher up canon.

Vold

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POSTS: 16223

Report this Sep. 05 2004, 11:30 pm

I guess that's how SW works from the beginning,

full of imagination & no sense of logic by just simply writing a story & poof its canon, lol

:)

Grand_Admiral

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 479

Report this Sep. 05 2004, 11:33 pm

Quote (Vold @ Sep. 05 2004, 3:30 pm)
I guess that's how SW works from the beginning,

full of imagination & no sense of logic by just simply writing a story & poof its canon, lol

:)

Yes, and the fact that an Astrophyisist with a PhD did work to make SW logical and realistic (in SW terms) means nothing.

And the fact that there isn't anything in SW that isn't able to be explained logicaly. With the exception of the Force. But ST has its own stuff to worry about, ie. Q.

But a lot of Trekkies always resort to the same thing, "ST is better then Sw becuase its more logical!!!11" How?

EDIT: How about the fact that SW actually had continuity and ST doesn't?  At least Lucas strives for that.

Vold

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 16223

Report this Sep. 05 2004, 11:40 pm

Quote (Grand_Admiral @ Sep. 05 2004, 8:33 pm)
1. How?

2. How about the fact that SW actually had continuity and ST doesn't? At least Lucas strives for that.

1. Watch Voyager DVD Season 3 video on "Realistic science"
there they will explain it :)

2. When you say that i begin to wonder if you even watch any Trek shows. Or are u just a SW fan who came here to debate.

anyway, Trek are continuous, heck its the longest story ever.
They showed from the 22nd Century - the 24th Century.

Every series & movies are interconnected. And if you do not know that, than I think you are either new to the show or have no concept to it to begin with.

don't be so proud about SW continuity as they are not immune to it, Ive read on SW own boards that they say there is lots of continuity problems with the new movies.

Don't ask me what, its them who wrote it.

:)

ST is just riskier, as they have more place to cover, SW only got 6 movies to worry about, which the TOS's 6 movies have no problem keeping up with each other as well.

Grand_Admiral

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 479

Report this Sep. 05 2004, 11:51 pm

Quote (Vold @ Sep. 05 2004, 3:40 pm)
Quote (Grand_Admiral @ Sep. 05 2004, 8:33 pm)
1. How?

2. How about the fact that SW actually had continuity and ST doesn't?  At least Lucas strives for that.

1. Watch Voyager DVD Season 3 video on "Realistic science"
there they will explain it :)

2. When you say that i begin to wonder if you even watch any Trek shows. Or are u just a SW fan who came here to debate.

anyway, Trek are continuous, heck its the longest story ever.
They showed from the 22nd Century - the 24th Century.

Every series & movies are interconnected. And if you do not know that, than I think you are either new to the show or have no concept to it to begin with.

don't be so proud about SW continuity as they are not immune to it, Ive read on SW own boards that they say there is lots of continuity problems with the new movies.

Don't ask me what, its them who wrote it.

:)

ST is just riskier, as they have more place to cover, SW only got 6 movies to worry about, which the TOS's 6 movies have no problem keeping up with each other as well.

Actually the only ST series I have never watched was TOS, and that was because it was too old for me to get into.

Between the shows they are hardly continuous, with the exception of major events.  Just because ST can do a good job of an overall timeline doesn't mean its continuous through the episodes.

Also, their have been many instances where weapons, shields, ect. are different then normal.  Take a look at The Die is Cast and the weapons power, that's not normal.  Or how a phaser in TOS can have the potential to do serious damage when overloaded, but one in TNG barely hurts a 2 square meter area?  How about the Klingons are supposed to be such warriors but Worf is gunned down by a Ferengi standing less less then 5 meters away, but not AFTER Worf misses the Ferengi beceuase he ducked slowly?

How about Borg drones having disrupters on their arms in some TNG and VOY episodes, but for the most part they don't have them?  Or the fact that the Borg originally never were interesting in assimilating species, but only technology?

The list goes on and on.  But it sounds like you have never even read a single SW book, let alone watched the movies enough to tell me continuity problems with them.

Can you name any?

Why do you think SW considers more books and whatnot canon and ST doesn't?  Its because Lusac makes sure all the books have good continuity.  Minor things such as the size of the Executor and DS II have already been corrected.

SW has just as much room to cover since it deals with a larger time span.  More episodes doesn't mean more to look at, it just means you have to be careful.  SW spans 25,000 years and the people who write the books have to make sure that everything fits in well with what came before it.

Vold

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POSTS: 16223

Report this Sep. 06 2004, 12:04 am

Quote (Grand_Admiral @ Sep. 05 2004, 8:51 pm)
1. Also, their have been many instances where weapons, shields, ect. are different then normal. Take a look at The Die is Cast and the weapons power, that's not normal. Or how a phaser in TOS can have the potential to do serious damage when overloaded, but one in TNG barely hurts a 2 square meter area? How about the Klingons are supposed to be such warriors but Worf is gunned down by a Ferengi standing less less then 5 meters away, but not AFTER Worf misses the Ferengi beceuase he ducked slowly?

2. How about Borg drones having disrupters on their arms in some TNG and VOY episodes, but for the most part they don't have them? Or the fact that the Borg originally never were interesting in assimilating species, but only technology?

3. But it sounds like you have never even read a single SW book, let alone watched the movies enough to tell me continuity problems with them.

1. There are some parts that needs to be corrected to make it real. That's what Trek do, they take the liberty to correct their mistakes when real science can prove otherwise.

2. Disruptors:
That's because Borg do have it, its up to them whether or not to use it.

Borg behavior:
That's because the Borg are still new & an anomaly, TNG could not possibly know everything, so its up to Voyager to learn more about them. But even with Voyager's research I'm sure there are more new things undiscovered or can prove what Voyager saw is wrong.

nothing can be taken literaly in these shows, because it depends on the writer whether or not they have fully thought through things. Assimilating tech only is just what Q said, he can easily just simply say anything he wants or just didn't bother saying something else.

TNG themselves found out that Borg are interested in both bio & tech in later episodes.

No one can learn everything about someone else in just 1 episode. Some things also just needs changes.

3. I never claim to read any of the books, :)
& i said other people said it, not me.

read it again, I said on their own boards there are people complaining about it.
:)

lanceromega

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 3859

Report this Sep. 06 2004, 12:14 am

Quote (Vold @ Sep. 05 2004, 9:04 pm)
Quote (Grand_Admiral @ Sep. 05 2004, 8:51 pm)
1. Also, their have been many instances where weapons, shields, ect. are different then normal. Take a look at The Die is Cast and the weapons power, that's not normal. Or how a phaser in TOS can have the potential to do serious damage when overloaded, but one in TNG barely hurts a 2 square meter area? How about the Klingons are supposed to be such warriors but Worf is gunned down by a Ferengi standing less less then 5 meters away, but not AFTER Worf misses the Ferengi beceuase he ducked slowly?

2. How about Borg drones having disrupters on their arms in some TNG and VOY episodes, but for the most part they don't have them? Or the fact that the Borg originally never were interesting in assimilating species, but only technology?

3. But it sounds like you have never even read a single SW book, let alone watched the movies enough to tell me continuity problems with them.

1. There are some parts that needs to be corrected to make it real. That's what Trek do, they take the liberty to correct their mistakes when real science can prove otherwise.

2. Disruptors:
That's because Borg do have it, its up to them whether or not to use it.

Borg behavior:
That's because the Borg are still new & an anomaly, TNG could not possibly know everything, so its up to Voyager to learn more about them. But even with Voyager's research I'm sure there are more new things undiscovered or can prove what Voyager saw is wrong.

nothing can be taken literaly in these shows, because it depends on the writer whether or not they have fully thought through things. Assimilating tech only is just what Q said, he can easily just simply say anything he wants or just didn't bother saying something else.

TNG themselves found out that Borg are interested in both bio & tech in later episodes.

No one can learn everything about someone else in just 1 episode. Some things also just needs changes.

3. I never claim to read any of the books, :)
& i said other people said it, not me.

read it again, I said on their own boards there are people complaining about it.
:)

Humm, doesnot matter who complains, since the Fans donot determine what is starwars, but Lucas himself.

As it stand the point was your complaint on what is consider Cannon for this discussion, and as you see that SW has a large written record to draw from, including Comics that give us insight on the Sith and Jedi conflict.

Unlike Trek that put out 3 tv series that ran weeky, SW has mostly been limited to printed material. It would have been nice if Paramount would allow some official written Star trek material, like it own tech manuals, but that the breaks.

Vold

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POSTS: 16223

Report this Sep. 06 2004, 7:38 am

Quote (lanceromega @ Sep. 05 2004, 9:14 pm)
As it stand the point was your complaint on what is consider Cannon for this discussion, and as you see that SW has a large written record to draw from, including Comics that give us insight on the Sith and Jedi conflict.

you misunderstood me lancer, i'm not complaining,
just asking a curious question.

:)

Grand_Admiral

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 479

Report this Sep. 06 2004, 11:19 am

Quote (Vold @ Sep. 05 2004, 4:04 pm)
3. I never claim to read any of the books, :)
& i said other people said it, not me.

read it again, I said on their own boards there are people complaining about it.
:)

I know what you said, but if your going to take those people's word on those problems then you need to be able to say what those problems are again.  What were the continuity problems those people said?  If you don't remember or can't say, don't bring it up.

guzhogi

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POSTS: 63

Report this Sep. 06 2004, 6:31 pm

There was a post saying that you can't transport through shileds.  Actually, the Dominion had invasive transporters that could, so if the Borg assimilated that technology  Also, I'll admit, I've never read any of the SW books, so I don't know where you got all stats for SW ships.  Also, in the TNG "The Dauphin", Riker says that the Enterprise can't generate terawatt energy, but I later heard that that was wrong.  Hey writers make mistakes.  Also, the Borg should be able to adapt to blaster fire.  Blasters and phasers are both energy weapons.  In several Borg episodes/movies, the line "They've adapted!" often pops up.  As for physical weapons like bullets, bat'leths, knives, etc., they won't be able to adapt.  In real life, though, ST was made to be more about storytelling and be as technically realistic as possible while SW is more about action.  So there are inconsistencies b/w the 2 universes.

Grand_Admiral

GROUP: Members

POSTS: 479

Report this Sep. 06 2004, 8:40 pm

Quote (guzhogi @ Sep. 06 2004, 10:31 am)
There was a post saying that you can't transport through shileds. Actually, the Dominion had invasive transporters that could, so if the Borg assimilated that technology   Also, I'll admit, I've never read any of the SW books, so I don't know where you got all stats for SW ships. Also, in the TNG "The Dauphin", Riker says that the Enterprise can't generate terawatt energy, but I later heard that that was wrong. Hey writers make mistakes. Also, the Borg should be able to adapt to blaster fire. Blasters and phasers are both energy weapons. In several Borg episodes/movies, the line "They've adapted!" often pops up. As for physical weapons like bullets, bat'leths, knives, etc., they won't be able to adapt. In real life, though, ST was made to be more about storytelling and be as technically realistic as possible while SW is more about action. So there are inconsistencies b/w the 2 universes.

1. Can you explain those Dominion transporters more?  Also, just because it works on ST shields doesn't mean its the same for SW shields.  As a matter of fact, SW shields are waaaay stronger and block almost all types of things (inclusding subspace).

2. Blasters cab't be adapted to, why?  Because there is no frequency to adapt to.  Its just sheer power.  Sort of like 8472's weapons... sorta.

lanceromega

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POSTS: 3859

Report this Sep. 06 2004, 9:03 pm

Quote (guzhogi @ Sep. 06 2004, 3:31 pm)
There was a post saying that you can't transport through shileds.  Actually, the Dominion had invasive transporters that could, so if the Borg assimilated that technology Also, I'll admit, I've never read any of the SW books, so I don't know where you got all stats for SW ships.  Also, in the TNG "The Dauphin", Riker says that the Enterprise can't generate terawatt energy, but I later heard that that was wrong.  Hey writers make mistakes.  Also, the Borg should be able to adapt to blaster fire.  Blasters and phasers are both energy weapons.  In several Borg episodes/movies, the line "They've adapted!" often pops up.  As for physical weapons like bullets, bat'leths, knives, etc., they won't be able to adapt.  In real life, though, ST was made to be more about storytelling and be as technically realistic as possible while SW is more about action.  So there are inconsistencies b/w the 2 universes.

If Riker is wrong a Quote should be included to show us that he was incorrect.

Actually borg can teleport thru shields they did so in "I Q" when they first was introduce. In both cases they either used a frequency that the shield was transparent to ( The same trick was used by Voyager against the Borg) or used ( in the the Case of Dominon ) Polaron Radiation which Federation shields didnot block.

Blaster are Plasma based, and donot have a Frequency, while Phaser are some strange Subspace Particle that has a frequency range. Borg shielding optimize itself to the Frequency of the attacking energy. Problem is that if the Attack is powerful enought it still get thru.

We see in "Attack of the CLone" Blaster blast apart Destroyer Droids which have shields, Blaster can be turn up that they can blow thru Shielded Doors. While this drain the Blaster faster than it standard 100 shots, against a foe that is shielded it an option.

Personal shielding devices are not uncommon in SW universe and Miltary grade Blasters are design to inflict harm to even the most protected target.

As it stand Storm trooper use a wide range of weapons, from Flechett guns to Proton Missile launcher, and a squad of troopers will be arm with a different types of weapons, just like a real life Army squad.

As for the Stats on star war ships, the latest Movie "Attack of the Clones" had an "Incredable Cross section book" which show the various vessels in the movie. Include was a descripion.

We learn that a standard Turbo laser, used by the clone trooper Troop carrier can fire 200 GT per shoot. This Vehicle was the Precusor to the Imperial Star destroyer.

The Mine used by Boba Fetts was rated at 1 gigaton. Lasers of Jedi starfighter 1KT per shot. These energies far exceeds the energy of phasers which are measure in Gigawatts.

A kiloton is around 4.19 X 10^12 joules which mean at a gigawatt ( 1x10^9 joules/sec) it would take 4190 seconds to generate the same amount of damage as a single bolt of the jedi starfighter lasers.

This means even a light fighter in the SW beam weapons are a 1000Xmore powerful than the phasers of a Capital federation starship.

A concussion missiles fired from fetts slave one, is 190 MT, equal to 3 photon torpedoes ( if you use the TNG Tech Manuals as source of their yield) and unlike Photon torpedoe the missile inflict their damage by placing all the energy on the point of impact, while Photon torpedoes release their energy in a spherical manner.

So even the tiny fighter could inflict damage to the Borg, battering down their shields, like the Federation fleet did in First contact, in seconds. If the Fighter is carrying missiles, the Battle is over in the opening volleys.

We seen that the Borg cannot Adapted when face by a foe with Superior Firepower. Species 8427 proved this and Episodes like "Descent " where the Borg ship was unable to follow the Enterprise in to the Corona of a local star.

lanceromega

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POSTS: 3859

Report this Sep. 07 2004, 1:15 am

Just for clafication Laforge also said that the Power output of the Enterprise was in the Terawatt range:

TNG Season 5, Ep# 113: "The Masterpiece Society"

HANNAH: Your ship... what kind of energy output is it capable of generating?

GEORDI: We have a matter/antimatter warp reaction system, the most powerful in Starfleet... normally kicks plasma up into the terawatt range... what are you thinking about?


Wow that enought power to run one of the four Jedi fighters laser cannons...

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